JAA proposal to make ATPL training and testing easier?
Dancing with the devil, going with the flow... it's all a game to me.
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Agree with the sentiments expressed by WWW and co. but I think some compromise is called for now. As someone who has suffered set backs in training largely beyond my control I can categorically state that losing continuity during training is something which needs to be lessened especially when it's your own pockets taking a battering. Simulators are obviously a good combatant for this.
The experience gained in sending a student off solo for 'xxx' amount of hours is useful but what does one really learn on these hours build packages spent pootling around the sunny skies of Florida for example? I did it and all I learned was how to kill time by looking out for other traffic in the largely populated skies! Okay, slightly dismissive but when I got back to UK the differences hit me like a bolt of lightning so was it worth it? I jumped through the hoop. Big willies.
I am not for or against this new proposal as I can theoretically see both pro's and con's. Instructing for a few years and getting that experience under your belt is obviously going to help a future airline pilot make decisions off their own backs without prodding from a superior. But at the end of the day is it really all that vital? I know guys who've walked into jobs with minimum hours and yes, Captains groan but I've yet (and correct me if I'm wrong) to see an accident directly linked to an FO not having had 'xxxx' hours spent instructing in a SEP before his first RHS position on a transport category aircraft flown by the types of companies discussed on this thread.
Heard this idea mooted before and thought it was quite good. It would definately need integrating with proper hands-on flying which would no doubt have to be conducted in a light piston but it's a step nearer to the realism in flight training which we need........and a step into the future.
Jumpseating, time in a jet/turboprop sim, a day in the ops room, two days in groundschool, two days flight training in MEP's..... that sorta thing. Anything but 150 hours of non taxing pleasure flying, 14 exams in futility, 28 hours of VFR navigation again (the IMC leg now removed from the test as of 01/01/04), and an IR in an aircraft which bares very little resemblance to any aircraft most pilots will ever fly again!
I don't pretend to have the answers but the present system is rather antiquated and irrelevant if you ask me. A little less of the "well I had to do it so must they" mentality would be nice too. We're all guilty of it. I thought straight away that easier ATPL writtens would be bad because I had to do them so......
VFE.
The experience gained in sending a student off solo for 'xxx' amount of hours is useful but what does one really learn on these hours build packages spent pootling around the sunny skies of Florida for example? I did it and all I learned was how to kill time by looking out for other traffic in the largely populated skies! Okay, slightly dismissive but when I got back to UK the differences hit me like a bolt of lightning so was it worth it? I jumped through the hoop. Big willies.
I am not for or against this new proposal as I can theoretically see both pro's and con's. Instructing for a few years and getting that experience under your belt is obviously going to help a future airline pilot make decisions off their own backs without prodding from a superior. But at the end of the day is it really all that vital? I know guys who've walked into jobs with minimum hours and yes, Captains groan but I've yet (and correct me if I'm wrong) to see an accident directly linked to an FO not having had 'xxxx' hours spent instructing in a SEP before his first RHS position on a transport category aircraft flown by the types of companies discussed on this thread.
force low hour pilots into an apprenticeship type training where competency and proficiency are paramount before being let loose.
Jumpseating, time in a jet/turboprop sim, a day in the ops room, two days in groundschool, two days flight training in MEP's..... that sorta thing. Anything but 150 hours of non taxing pleasure flying, 14 exams in futility, 28 hours of VFR navigation again (the IMC leg now removed from the test as of 01/01/04), and an IR in an aircraft which bares very little resemblance to any aircraft most pilots will ever fly again!
I don't pretend to have the answers but the present system is rather antiquated and irrelevant if you ask me. A little less of the "well I had to do it so must they" mentality would be nice too. We're all guilty of it. I thought straight away that easier ATPL writtens would be bad because I had to do them so......
VFE.
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SP IR now as a GA rating
One consequence of the current system is that the number of
IR issues to PPLs in the EU as a percentage of PPLs is very low
compared to the USA.
Only a handful of IRs - 20 'ish' are issued per year by the CAA!
No wonder so many business people in Europe go FAA IR as stated in 'Flyer'
This is because the IR has been hijacked as a rating that is
seen as a rating for profesional pilots unlike the USA where it is
viewed as a rating to fly GA aircraft under IFR
This JAA stuff is viewed as being too expensive and too time consuming by the airlines and by many in business generally
Why should Europe need a much more costly training system than used in the US for training anyway?
Who wins here apart from the flying schools?
IR issues to PPLs in the EU as a percentage of PPLs is very low
compared to the USA.
Only a handful of IRs - 20 'ish' are issued per year by the CAA!
No wonder so many business people in Europe go FAA IR as stated in 'Flyer'
This is because the IR has been hijacked as a rating that is
seen as a rating for profesional pilots unlike the USA where it is
viewed as a rating to fly GA aircraft under IFR
This JAA stuff is viewed as being too expensive and too time consuming by the airlines and by many in business generally
Why should Europe need a much more costly training system than used in the US for training anyway?
Who wins here apart from the flying schools?
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Totally agree with VFE and RVR800
GA kit is becoming VERY outdated and starting to bear little relation to airline flying. I've been thinking about this recently also and came to the same conclusion - that a specific airline license ought to be introduced rather than the current mess of a system. It would simplify things so much.
That seems to be a good thing, although you can argue about how much real flying should be done on GA planes and how much on a heavy jet sim. I guess OAT and the rest will be watching this one pretty closely.....
That said, yesterday, i asked my boss for unpaid leave later this year to take the ATPLs and get a CPL.......now what am i supposed to do, if i do that, am i gonna end up with an obsolete license in two years time? I would really like to fly a jet, but thanks to the CAA, airline industry and osama bin laden it sure is an up-hill struggle
Thanks for this thread guys, good info.
GA kit is becoming VERY outdated and starting to bear little relation to airline flying. I've been thinking about this recently also and came to the same conclusion - that a specific airline license ought to be introduced rather than the current mess of a system. It would simplify things so much.
That seems to be a good thing, although you can argue about how much real flying should be done on GA planes and how much on a heavy jet sim. I guess OAT and the rest will be watching this one pretty closely.....
That said, yesterday, i asked my boss for unpaid leave later this year to take the ATPLs and get a CPL.......now what am i supposed to do, if i do that, am i gonna end up with an obsolete license in two years time? I would really like to fly a jet, but thanks to the CAA, airline industry and osama bin laden it sure is an up-hill struggle
Thanks for this thread guys, good info.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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RVR,
You have to be very careful comparing the number of PPL/IRs issued in the UK to the US. Remeber that the majority of UK-based pilots who want to fly in IMC will get an IMC Rating, not an IR.
I don't disagree with the point that you're making, just pointing out that if you really want to compare numbers, then you will need to add the IMC Ratings to the PPL/IRs before you can get anything meaningful from it.
FFF
-------------
You have to be very careful comparing the number of PPL/IRs issued in the UK to the US. Remeber that the majority of UK-based pilots who want to fly in IMC will get an IMC Rating, not an IR.
I don't disagree with the point that you're making, just pointing out that if you really want to compare numbers, then you will need to add the IMC Ratings to the PPL/IRs before you can get anything meaningful from it.
FFF
-------------
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Why should Europe need a much more costly training system than used in the US for training anyway?
Speak to any US FAA instructor and tell them that guys over here jump into the RHS of a jet with 200 hours and they go into deep shock. I think that says quite alot. However, as I previously pointed out, does VFR instructing in an SEP really bare any resemblance to the kind of work undertaken in an airliner? Decision making experience is improved granted but isn't your time as an FO designed to give you the required experience before you're the one calling the shots from the LHS? BA cadets have graduated from integrated FTO's for years without instructor experience so there's obviously a gaping hole for some balance to be found on this matter.
VFE.
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Personally I think the whole system is a mess. I have a single pilot IR but can't fly single pilot public transport as I dont have 700 hours total time. I can get a job with an airline flying multicrew though, so why have I done all of my training for single pilot ops when I am then not allowed to use it, rather than doing training for multipilot ops which I can?
Although it would be interesting if they brought in this new qualification and then said you couldnt fly RHS in a jet unless you had 700 hours multicrew time...
Although it would be interesting if they brought in this new qualification and then said you couldnt fly RHS in a jet unless you had 700 hours multicrew time...
PPRuNe Handmaiden
This JAR thing does seem crazy. I really don't think much practical thought went into it.
In Oz I know you can with your CPL/IR go and do IFR charters. I would have to check the actual experience required for single pilot airline ops. While you are legally allowed to do the IFR charter, whether any one will insure you is another thing.
I think what people are missing about flying solo is for once, you have to make decisions that will have a direct outcome on the flight. You can't ask your instructor or captain. You can't (often) radio back to base. It's down to you. So with the information you have and the experience you have, you now have to make decisions. If you make the wrong one in a small bugsmasher you tend not to take out too many people (if it's a crash) or more usually it doesn't cost the company too much money.
Being a captain isn't just about flying skills. It's about decision making and responsibility. While you do learn a lot sitting in the RHS or even the sim, you still have the safety net of being able to ask the captain or have another go in the sim.
Besides, flying an aeroplane all by yourself and being paid for it is the best thing in the world.
In Oz I know you can with your CPL/IR go and do IFR charters. I would have to check the actual experience required for single pilot airline ops. While you are legally allowed to do the IFR charter, whether any one will insure you is another thing.
I think what people are missing about flying solo is for once, you have to make decisions that will have a direct outcome on the flight. You can't ask your instructor or captain. You can't (often) radio back to base. It's down to you. So with the information you have and the experience you have, you now have to make decisions. If you make the wrong one in a small bugsmasher you tend not to take out too many people (if it's a crash) or more usually it doesn't cost the company too much money.
Being a captain isn't just about flying skills. It's about decision making and responsibility. While you do learn a lot sitting in the RHS or even the sim, you still have the safety net of being able to ask the captain or have another go in the sim.
Besides, flying an aeroplane all by yourself and being paid for it is the best thing in the world.
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I really wouldn't want to have jumped straight into a RHS seat on a large jet. Looking back to the amount of fun I have had in puddel jumpers and Instructing.
Instructing isn't just about flying the machine although after 500hrs instructing the handeling side of things starts becoming like driving a car.
Its the people skills, learning how to handle refuelers, scared pax, airport officals, engineering and also the main thing is how to gauge someone elses work load and stress level.
I am sure that what ever they decide for airline licenses the old ones will be just as valid as they are now. You will get some companys who will swear by them. And others who say they want "real" pilots where the FO is a captain in training from the day they sit in the RHS. Exactly like what happens just now with intergrated/ modular methods of training and Instructor / Non Instructor pilots.
If people want the percieved glamour of poking buttons driving around the sky. So be it. Others like myself who get quite a buzz out of being a pilot hand flying the sod, can carry on the way things are done now. I am sure this will wear off in a few years but with any luck it won't.
There will always be a need for pilots to drive twotters and the like. And from the looks of pilots wandering around airports its nearly always the turboprop jocks who have a big smiles on their faces after landing not glum and knackard look of the jet guys.
MJ
Instructing isn't just about flying the machine although after 500hrs instructing the handeling side of things starts becoming like driving a car.
Its the people skills, learning how to handle refuelers, scared pax, airport officals, engineering and also the main thing is how to gauge someone elses work load and stress level.
I am sure that what ever they decide for airline licenses the old ones will be just as valid as they are now. You will get some companys who will swear by them. And others who say they want "real" pilots where the FO is a captain in training from the day they sit in the RHS. Exactly like what happens just now with intergrated/ modular methods of training and Instructor / Non Instructor pilots.
If people want the percieved glamour of poking buttons driving around the sky. So be it. Others like myself who get quite a buzz out of being a pilot hand flying the sod, can carry on the way things are done now. I am sure this will wear off in a few years but with any luck it won't.
There will always be a need for pilots to drive twotters and the like. And from the looks of pilots wandering around airports its nearly always the turboprop jocks who have a big smiles on their faces after landing not glum and knackard look of the jet guys.
MJ
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Its the people skills, learning how to handle refuelers, scared pax, airport officals, engineering and also the main thing is how to gauge someone elses work load and stress level.
The part I do however feel is lacking is the gauging of others work loads/stress levels which as an instructor you have obviously gained. That is something which the 200 houred chappie missed out on when he/she hopped into the RHS of a large aircraft and I honestly don't know a way of teaching this apart from backseating students on their lessons. Done that quite a few times and must say I've been lucky enough to witness some of the signs of stress and strain on a student like the "yessing" and lack of coherent response to questions put to them. It is useful stuff which the CAA need to recognise if they wish to overhaul the training system.
Not too sure that I've met many in the modular world who get drawn in by the percieved glamour of pushing knobs at FL330 but I'm sure there must be some. The longer you hang around the aviation scene the more you get a sense of realism and know that that lark ain't all it's cracked up to be because as you rightly point out jet guys looking miserable can often be seen!
It all depends on where the student wants to go after their training and with the way jobs are found these days there really can be no firm solution. Unless one got a contract from an airline/taxi and then went off to pay for their training what other way will a student have of knowing the route they're taking is the best one for them?
I know one thing though...... the other day I was lucky enough to unstrap a BE-76 from my arse and walk straight into the cockpit of a B737 for a nosey. One feeling struck me immediately - the complete lack of resemblance to anything I've ever flown before and a big sense of the huge hurdle required to move from an MEP to a jet!
How do they do it???? I know the idea amazed me enough to realise flying something larger than a BE-76 but smaller than a B737 would be a better idea as a first foot on the ladder! Having said that I know of one guy here who stepped into a B747 after leaving integrated training!
VFE.
Last edited by VFE; 20th Jan 2004 at 22:46.
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Hello,
Nobody really answered Funkie's question, which I will ask again...
IS IT WORTH STARTING CPL/IR TRAINING NOW? Or is better to wait and do this new thing straight away?
Regards,
FN
Nobody really answered Funkie's question, which I will ask again...
IS IT WORTH STARTING CPL/IR TRAINING NOW? Or is better to wait and do this new thing straight away?
Regards,
FN
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seeing as you asked so politely
Would think, having read everything you can lay your hands on it's your decision. Are you in this for a love of flying or just for tea and medals.
The thought of going to an airline with barely any solo time in the air frightens me on two fronts.
1. Where would the fun and enjoyment be?
2. How good am I really going to be flying the line?
What if the captain was incapacitated on your first line flight? Scary enough for those who trained in the air - what of those who never had the experience of flying and making decisions, and dare I say it scaring yourself on the odd occasion.
If you really want it badly, you shouldn't be prepared to wait until the new licence is around. If you have to ask, well..........
Would think, having read everything you can lay your hands on it's your decision. Are you in this for a love of flying or just for tea and medals.
The thought of going to an airline with barely any solo time in the air frightens me on two fronts.
1. Where would the fun and enjoyment be?
2. How good am I really going to be flying the line?
What if the captain was incapacitated on your first line flight? Scary enough for those who trained in the air - what of those who never had the experience of flying and making decisions, and dare I say it scaring yourself on the odd occasion.
If you really want it badly, you shouldn't be prepared to wait until the new licence is around. If you have to ask, well..........
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This week's Flight has a bit about this. ICAO has had a working party looking at it for some time and expects to set down the requirements and privileges multi-crew licences in 2006 so it's a way off yet. Once ICAO sort it out it's up to individual Authorities (ie EASA [JAA may be gone by then], FAA, CASA etc) to decide if they're going to introduce licences that comply with the ICAO requirements; ICAO already set the template for CPLs etc. It'll take a while for the Authorities to set up what they want and then the schools will need to develop syllabi and get them approved.
The plan, as I understand it, is that the first part of the course will finish with the qualification for a SEP PPL; after that it's all simulator multi-crew (of some kind).
The plan, as I understand it, is that the first part of the course will finish with the qualification for a SEP PPL; after that it's all simulator multi-crew (of some kind).
Ramasseur des pommes
Does anyone have an idea of how much 300hours of simulator currently costs? I'm presuming it's around £400+ per hour..? If this is the case, no self-sponsored is ever going to be able to justify the expense (even if they can afford it)? 
It sounds like great news for simulator manufacturers.
AppleMacster
It sounds like great news for simulator manufacturers.AppleMacster
The proposal at present is for 240 hours of 'flight' training, 60 in SEP aeroplanes and 120 in 'Level A' synthetic training devices and 60 in a Level D device. The course would produce pilots type rated as F/O in one type of multi-pilot aeroplane and a minimum number of hours (yet to be decided) would have to be flown on that type before conversion to any other.
Whilst airlines are clearly for the proposal, any self-sponsored wannabee who embarked on this course would have to be terminally stupid as he/she would end up qualified only on one type of multi-pilot aeroplane and, if no jobs on that type were forthcoming, would not be able to cross-train to a different type and would have no other employment options as a pilot. It is not clear whether the 60 hours of SEP training would include a PPL - the stated intention is to concentrate on "upset training and inverted flight"!!
So, to answer Fancy Navigator's question, it is certainly not worth waiting for the MP licence.
Whilst airlines are clearly for the proposal, any self-sponsored wannabee who embarked on this course would have to be terminally stupid as he/she would end up qualified only on one type of multi-pilot aeroplane and, if no jobs on that type were forthcoming, would not be able to cross-train to a different type and would have no other employment options as a pilot. It is not clear whether the 60 hours of SEP training would include a PPL - the stated intention is to concentrate on "upset training and inverted flight"!!
So, to answer Fancy Navigator's question, it is certainly not worth waiting for the MP licence.
