eagle jet - paying for A320 type rating and 500hrs line experience
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 1,040
Likes: 0
From: Yorkshire
yeah people get touchy on this but dont really see the problem, if you look back at industry in general its always been around but been disguised before under such things as
- Work experience.
- YTS.
- Job placement.
- Gap years.
to name a few....
The way the industry is at the moment if someone can increase their chances of getting a job by gaining some time on type they will do it. Just as goes on in just about every other industry, a company will hire, say, students, over a skilled employee if they can undertake the same role but for a lot less money - its a fact of life, some are placed with companies through colleges and get no pay what-so-ever maybe a vague promise of a job at the end of it.
- Work experience.
- YTS.
- Job placement.
- Gap years.
to name a few....
The way the industry is at the moment if someone can increase their chances of getting a job by gaining some time on type they will do it. Just as goes on in just about every other industry, a company will hire, say, students, over a skilled employee if they can undertake the same role but for a lot less money - its a fact of life, some are placed with companies through colleges and get no pay what-so-ever maybe a vague promise of a job at the end of it.
Joined: Jan 1997
Posts: 7,736
Likes: 1
From: UK
Julian and Strafer,
You are pushing agendas and attitudes on this thread but have provided not one iota of useful information. Button it. There is someone, along with others, seriously considering spending - not investing - spending a collosal sum of money which isn't yours.
Before continuing posting on this thread front up with your qualifications to pontificate. I've got 28 years flying experience, have run this site for 8 years, have never taken a penny from a wannabees training. You will also note that I sign posts with my real name.
Every one note: Not one, single, positive response from anyone having dealings with this company.
Only 'buttline,' on the previous page, has offered concise and thought through suggestions and guidance. On this page only 'number' has shown the results of simple, basic research.
For all readers still waiting for that first job and unable to afford a pint. I know you're sick of promises of jam tomorrow but let's get something absolutely straight.
It is the last gasp for these schemes to draw in good caliber newbies. They will always be around to lure the inept, the hopeless and the lazy. There is an absolute crisis in getting good, competent left seaters. It's not impending - it is right now!! 100% fact - not opinion. It is percolating through the industry and the first effects are already becoming apparent to those of you keeping your ears to the ground.
Let it be clearly understood, anyone posting positive views on such schemes without us knowing them is under the closest of critical scrutiny by us.
One more time team - read the big red warning at the bottom of the page.
In case you hadn't guessed I'm extremely pissed off with loudmouths who appear to have been in or on the periphery of the business for 10 minutes. You are going to be interviewed by senior people who went through exactly the same grind and misery as you. They understand and they're looking closely at you and your attitude.
Regards
Rob Lloyd
You are pushing agendas and attitudes on this thread but have provided not one iota of useful information. Button it. There is someone, along with others, seriously considering spending - not investing - spending a collosal sum of money which isn't yours.
Before continuing posting on this thread front up with your qualifications to pontificate. I've got 28 years flying experience, have run this site for 8 years, have never taken a penny from a wannabees training. You will also note that I sign posts with my real name.
Every one note: Not one, single, positive response from anyone having dealings with this company.
Only 'buttline,' on the previous page, has offered concise and thought through suggestions and guidance. On this page only 'number' has shown the results of simple, basic research.
For all readers still waiting for that first job and unable to afford a pint. I know you're sick of promises of jam tomorrow but let's get something absolutely straight.
It is the last gasp for these schemes to draw in good caliber newbies. They will always be around to lure the inept, the hopeless and the lazy. There is an absolute crisis in getting good, competent left seaters. It's not impending - it is right now!! 100% fact - not opinion. It is percolating through the industry and the first effects are already becoming apparent to those of you keeping your ears to the ground.
Let it be clearly understood, anyone posting positive views on such schemes without us knowing them is under the closest of critical scrutiny by us.
One more time team - read the big red warning at the bottom of the page.
In case you hadn't guessed I'm extremely pissed off with loudmouths who appear to have been in or on the periphery of the business for 10 minutes. You are going to be interviewed by senior people who went through exactly the same grind and misery as you. They understand and they're looking closely at you and your attitude.
Regards
Rob Lloyd
Last edited by PPRuNe Towers; 12th October 2003 at 19:01.
PPRuNe Co-Pilot
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 931
Likes: 0
From: The Sky
Hello,
Just my two cents on type ratings...
Some people will pay for it, some wont. I respect their choices.
In my opinion an Airline Pilot career should be a progressive one.
You canīt expect once your qualified to get a type rating and jump straight into LH seat. there is more to that than just a type rating...
Just my two cents on type ratings...
Some people will pay for it, some wont. I respect their choices.
In my opinion an Airline Pilot career should be a progressive one.
You canīt expect once your qualified to get a type rating and jump straight into LH seat. there is more to that than just a type rating...
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,729
Likes: 0
From: 75N 16E
The airline industry is not the only industry where "paying to put yourself ahead" occours. I put myself through university and came out penniless, with no promise of a job, even though I have a degree. I had to pay for numerous additional courses out of my own pocket to put me ahead of other people and in the end it landed me a decent, but very boring job.
For the record I have also sponsored my own flying, probably 30,000 pounds worth (plus lost earnings), and tomorrow I have my CPL check ride, so fingers crossed by tomorrow evening I'll have a CPL ME IR. This isn't just a whim either, I am making a serious effort to enter the commercial world, which is why within the next month I am taking my Instrument instructors, flight instructors and multi engine instructors tickets (all paid for myself).
I have considered doing the Eagle Jet 500hr turbine time, and know a bloke who is doing it. If by doing this I can further my aviation career and put myself ahead of the rest of the competition then so be it. I am 34, didn't go to OAT, paid for every hour myself while holding down a full time job, and even after this I appreciate that the aviation world doesn't owe me a living.
My advice to the thread originator is, if you can do these 500 hrs, then do it, but be careful with regards to parting with your money up front.
It is a sad state of affairs that a prospective pilot has to pay for 'experience' but it is a fact of industry in general. Training costs are higher in aviation, but also the rewards are much higher.
EA
For the record I have also sponsored my own flying, probably 30,000 pounds worth (plus lost earnings), and tomorrow I have my CPL check ride, so fingers crossed by tomorrow evening I'll have a CPL ME IR. This isn't just a whim either, I am making a serious effort to enter the commercial world, which is why within the next month I am taking my Instrument instructors, flight instructors and multi engine instructors tickets (all paid for myself).
I have considered doing the Eagle Jet 500hr turbine time, and know a bloke who is doing it. If by doing this I can further my aviation career and put myself ahead of the rest of the competition then so be it. I am 34, didn't go to OAT, paid for every hour myself while holding down a full time job, and even after this I appreciate that the aviation world doesn't owe me a living.
My advice to the thread originator is, if you can do these 500 hrs, then do it, but be careful with regards to parting with your money up front.
It is a sad state of affairs that a prospective pilot has to pay for 'experience' but it is a fact of industry in general. Training costs are higher in aviation, but also the rewards are much higher.
EA
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 205
Likes: 0
From: London
Ace
There is a phrase i've heard used in Ireland which is F**K the Begrudgers.
If you want to do it then DO IT....but carefully. Investigate the pros and the cons the good and the bad of this company and programme then make your OWN decision with some advice from good friends and family or partner because they will all be involved to some degree.
I myself considered this programme and like yourself i would have to have mortgaged everything on top of the Ģ50,000+ odd that has already been spent......Why? Well because i want to fly and would do anything to be in the position of some of these begrudgers to make my own mind up as to whether or not it was worth it.
But also, take note of those who are preaching about waiting as i did (6 years) and now have a job. But at the end of the day it's about your patience versus the waiting gamble.
As for those who simply couldn't give someone who's trying to get started a reasonable answer then please answer this.
If you are a captain would you have treated a member of cabin crew or your F/O like this when they asked your advice and if so do you deserve those four stripes.
If you are an F/O then will you ever earn them if thats the way you treat people when they need help and wise guidance.
Good luck ACE and may the good side of the force be with you.
There is a phrase i've heard used in Ireland which is F**K the Begrudgers.
If you want to do it then DO IT....but carefully. Investigate the pros and the cons the good and the bad of this company and programme then make your OWN decision with some advice from good friends and family or partner because they will all be involved to some degree.
I myself considered this programme and like yourself i would have to have mortgaged everything on top of the Ģ50,000+ odd that has already been spent......Why? Well because i want to fly and would do anything to be in the position of some of these begrudgers to make my own mind up as to whether or not it was worth it.
But also, take note of those who are preaching about waiting as i did (6 years) and now have a job. But at the end of the day it's about your patience versus the waiting gamble.
As for those who simply couldn't give someone who's trying to get started a reasonable answer then please answer this.
If you are a captain would you have treated a member of cabin crew or your F/O like this when they asked your advice and if so do you deserve those four stripes.
If you are an F/O then will you ever earn them if thats the way you treat people when they need help and wise guidance.
Good luck ACE and may the good side of the force be with you.
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 1,040
Likes: 0
From: Yorkshire
Towers,
I dont see what your problem is. If Ace wantsa to spend money to further his career then let him, if it puts him ahead of the game then good luck to him is what I say. I have no agenda pushing Eagle Jet or any other scheme for that matter and after re-reading my post I cannot even see how you drew the fact I have an agenda pushing them! I try and stay as objective as I can when replying to something, as I am sure you would realise if you had checked my postings on this site before posting a response such as you did.
I have spent a "collosal sum of money which isn't yours" as well, somewhere in the region of Ģ25k as well at last count, every hour in my logbook I have paid for out of my own pocket, no sponsorship, no bursarys, no students paying for hours whilst I instruct them, etc. I do know the value of money and investment so please dont treat me as if I dont!
As I said the fact that people will pay to further their career is not new, maybe it has just reached aviation.
I have been in my industry(outside aviation) for 15 years and its helping me pay towards my career of flying but to bring it home to you I paid Ģ4500 a few weeks ago for a 5 day course. Was this to advance my career - No! It was actually to be able to carry on doing what I am doing, if I had not done I would have been out of the job and the flying would have ben put on hold as well. As other posters have said, if you want to join one of these scheme to get some time in your logbook then go for it, but be careful which schemes you go for and as has been said in countless previous threads on here, if they demand all the money up front then pick up your bags and run a mile!
Finally, Julian is my real name - if you dont like then take the situation up with my mother as she picked it
I am currently about to complete my CPL if all goes well. If you have any further issues with me then please feel free to PM me with any more questions as I have nothing to hide and will quite happily answer anything you want to ask.
Julian.
I dont see what your problem is. If Ace wantsa to spend money to further his career then let him, if it puts him ahead of the game then good luck to him is what I say. I have no agenda pushing Eagle Jet or any other scheme for that matter and after re-reading my post I cannot even see how you drew the fact I have an agenda pushing them! I try and stay as objective as I can when replying to something, as I am sure you would realise if you had checked my postings on this site before posting a response such as you did.
I have spent a "collosal sum of money which isn't yours" as well, somewhere in the region of Ģ25k as well at last count, every hour in my logbook I have paid for out of my own pocket, no sponsorship, no bursarys, no students paying for hours whilst I instruct them, etc. I do know the value of money and investment so please dont treat me as if I dont!
As I said the fact that people will pay to further their career is not new, maybe it has just reached aviation.
I have been in my industry(outside aviation) for 15 years and its helping me pay towards my career of flying but to bring it home to you I paid Ģ4500 a few weeks ago for a 5 day course. Was this to advance my career - No! It was actually to be able to carry on doing what I am doing, if I had not done I would have been out of the job and the flying would have ben put on hold as well. As other posters have said, if you want to join one of these scheme to get some time in your logbook then go for it, but be careful which schemes you go for and as has been said in countless previous threads on here, if they demand all the money up front then pick up your bags and run a mile!
Finally, Julian is my real name - if you dont like then take the situation up with my mother as she picked it
I am currently about to complete my CPL if all goes well. If you have any further issues with me then please feel free to PM me with any more questions as I have nothing to hide and will quite happily answer anything you want to ask.Julian.
Joined: Jan 1997
Posts: 7,736
Likes: 1
From: UK
Hmmmm, stirred up a few replies but let's review them for useful content
Ah well, very close to zero just as I said previously. 'english al' came closest but no cigar I'm afraid.
Al manages to let us know he has a mate doing a course but sadly absolutely zero information regarding service , actual costs versus promised cost. Location of training, the authority it comes under, it's transferal to a UK or other licence and its course quality seems strangely absent. Critically and, for a working professional, the most important question of all - one which the new and naive would never dream of asking.
What licence or validation is required, organised and assured for you to be able to fly for an eastern european operator?
The same applies to many other supposedly JAA countries let alone the rest of the world. What about visas? - they are the bane of our lives as professional aviators working on contracts which effectively is what this scheme is.
Have a look at the replies above this post again. They are merely self justification for an attitude, an agenda. Namely - 'If I have to pay out more to get ahead I will...... err, maybe, if I can afford it, possibly. umm, actually if you have a go I might but I definitely believe in it as a principle unless I get a call for a real job interview that is.'
No one on this thread has put their money where their mouth is. No one is speaking from experience of any one of these schemes. Their absence speaks volumes.
But consider this. Imagine you can borrow the money, the course is entirely safe and of high quality. How long have you effectively opted out of the recruitment merry go round? A year?? Meanwhile a glance at the partner forum to this shows people swapping notes on interviews they're being called for. The market is moving and our pushers of pay your way to the top are in actuality recommending taking yourself out of the system for a significant period. At last, when jobs are finally about which, while bonded, don't actually cost you anything, we still have the rump of the pay as you goers pushing their ideas.
If you think its a good idea fill your boots lads but don't post that alone. Without useful information for the likeminded you're wasting our bandwidth and makes it appear you're just trying to convince yourself as much as others. It makes you look like you're trying to produce a critical mass of folks falling for it as happened with MCC and other non required follow on courses.
Those new to the forum may have wondered why there is so llittle input from experienced working pilots - by that I mean 3 or more years in the business. 20,000 plus visit the site each day so you wannabees are just a little out numbered. It's quite simply frustration, annoyance and embarrassment at what passes for debate here. The embarrassment lies in the awful realisation that they were exactly the same when they knew nothing about the realities of the profession.
On occasion a grownup has to step in - this is one of those moments.
Now before composing yet another withering reply to my epistle would you please miss out the paragraphs regarding all you've given up and how much you spent. That is a given in this business. The Weshman and I have repeatedly demonstrated over the years that yours are the cheapest licences ever in the history of the industry. We will rub it in your faces if you persist.
Why??? Because those interviewing you went through the same processes, made the same sacrifices and paid far more than you did. They don't like a whining attitude. They don't select 'I want it on a platers.' Bright eyed, enthusiastic, positive, and current is what they want. Not those already thinking of the first job move they can to service huge debts.
Regards
Rob
Ah well, very close to zero just as I said previously. 'english al' came closest but no cigar I'm afraid.
Al manages to let us know he has a mate doing a course but sadly absolutely zero information regarding service , actual costs versus promised cost. Location of training, the authority it comes under, it's transferal to a UK or other licence and its course quality seems strangely absent. Critically and, for a working professional, the most important question of all - one which the new and naive would never dream of asking.
What licence or validation is required, organised and assured for you to be able to fly for an eastern european operator?
The same applies to many other supposedly JAA countries let alone the rest of the world. What about visas? - they are the bane of our lives as professional aviators working on contracts which effectively is what this scheme is.
Have a look at the replies above this post again. They are merely self justification for an attitude, an agenda. Namely - 'If I have to pay out more to get ahead I will...... err, maybe, if I can afford it, possibly. umm, actually if you have a go I might but I definitely believe in it as a principle unless I get a call for a real job interview that is.'
No one on this thread has put their money where their mouth is. No one is speaking from experience of any one of these schemes. Their absence speaks volumes.
But consider this. Imagine you can borrow the money, the course is entirely safe and of high quality. How long have you effectively opted out of the recruitment merry go round? A year?? Meanwhile a glance at the partner forum to this shows people swapping notes on interviews they're being called for. The market is moving and our pushers of pay your way to the top are in actuality recommending taking yourself out of the system for a significant period. At last, when jobs are finally about which, while bonded, don't actually cost you anything, we still have the rump of the pay as you goers pushing their ideas.
If you think its a good idea fill your boots lads but don't post that alone. Without useful information for the likeminded you're wasting our bandwidth and makes it appear you're just trying to convince yourself as much as others. It makes you look like you're trying to produce a critical mass of folks falling for it as happened with MCC and other non required follow on courses.
Those new to the forum may have wondered why there is so llittle input from experienced working pilots - by that I mean 3 or more years in the business. 20,000 plus visit the site each day so you wannabees are just a little out numbered. It's quite simply frustration, annoyance and embarrassment at what passes for debate here. The embarrassment lies in the awful realisation that they were exactly the same when they knew nothing about the realities of the profession.
On occasion a grownup has to step in - this is one of those moments.
Now before composing yet another withering reply to my epistle would you please miss out the paragraphs regarding all you've given up and how much you spent. That is a given in this business. The Weshman and I have repeatedly demonstrated over the years that yours are the cheapest licences ever in the history of the industry. We will rub it in your faces if you persist.
Why??? Because those interviewing you went through the same processes, made the same sacrifices and paid far more than you did. They don't like a whining attitude. They don't select 'I want it on a platers.' Bright eyed, enthusiastic, positive, and current is what they want. Not those already thinking of the first job move they can to service huge debts.
Regards
Rob
Last edited by PPRuNe Towers; 13th October 2003 at 20:32.
Chieftan o'the Pudden Race
Joined: Nov 1997
Posts: 826
Likes: 0
From: Scotland usually, and often other parts of Europe
The Welshman and I have repeatedly demonstrated over the years that yours are the cheapest licences ever in the history of the industry.
JAA Frozen ATPL:
Modular Route
PPL (in UK) Approx Ģ 4,000
Hour building (US/SA) Approx Ģ 13,000
ATPL Groundschool Approx Ģ 3,000 (inc exam fees)
CPL Approx Ģ 6500 (inc ME Rating and fees)
Instrument Rating Approx Ģ 14,000
Living Costs for 10 months Ģ 8-10,000
Total Ģ 48,500 - 50,500
All costs are approximate, best to add at least 20% to the total to take into account unforeseen circumstances (crap wx, resits etc etc) Ģ58,200 - 60,600
Integrated Route
Ģ 65,000 - 95,000 at a guess.
Last edited by Flypuppy; 13th October 2003 at 19:59.
Joined: Jan 1997
Posts: 7,736
Likes: 1
From: UK
Yes they are FP. The Welshman went back to approved courses in 1991 - to be absolutely clear and specific: Prestwick the school now known as Jerez. The figures are still on the forum and are substantially higher - very substantially.
Going back to the mid eighties, the era many of your interviewers will stem from, the costs were a good 25% higher and it was even more for the IR. Using 1988 as a baseline the IRs at AFT in Coventry over a 4 month period went from a minimum of Ģ2,300 ( a guy who already had 500 twin hours and got 1st time pass in minimum time and needed no sim) to a maximum of Ģ7500 in one case. Real life costs not advertised prices. I'd like you to assume you're also a hot shot and have a look at Ģ2300 adjusted for 15 years of inflation. Alternatively use the wonders of the internet and have a look at what the same sum bought you in car showroom.
You might at the same time look at what Ģ60,000 bought you in the housing markets of 1988 (a legendary price peak) and 1991 (an equally legendary bottom of the market) respectively. A substantial house in the home counties of England was yours.
All this is by the by though. Still no posts from anyone who will talk about one of these schemes from experience. This is puzzling as they've been around since the 1920's - yes you've read that correctly.
Regards
Rob
Going back to the mid eighties, the era many of your interviewers will stem from, the costs were a good 25% higher and it was even more for the IR. Using 1988 as a baseline the IRs at AFT in Coventry over a 4 month period went from a minimum of Ģ2,300 ( a guy who already had 500 twin hours and got 1st time pass in minimum time and needed no sim) to a maximum of Ģ7500 in one case. Real life costs not advertised prices. I'd like you to assume you're also a hot shot and have a look at Ģ2300 adjusted for 15 years of inflation. Alternatively use the wonders of the internet and have a look at what the same sum bought you in car showroom.
You might at the same time look at what Ģ60,000 bought you in the housing markets of 1988 (a legendary price peak) and 1991 (an equally legendary bottom of the market) respectively. A substantial house in the home counties of England was yours.
All this is by the by though. Still no posts from anyone who will talk about one of these schemes from experience. This is puzzling as they've been around since the 1920's - yes you've read that correctly.
Regards
Rob
Last edited by PPRuNe Towers; 13th October 2003 at 20:58.
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,729
Likes: 0
From: 75N 16E
Al manages to let us know he has a mate doing a course but sadly absolutely zero information regarding service , actual costs versus promised cost. Location of training, the authority it comes under, it's transferal to a UK or other licence and its course quality seems strangely absent. Critically and, for a working professional, the most important question of all - one which the new and naive would never dream of asking.
I don't know anything about the service, it is obviously something I'd research very carefully before entering into a deal. My point was that if one can afford to do this then be careful, research it and do it if it will benefit your career. My other point is that if your airline career has stagnated, get off your arse and do something about it rather than bitch at people who have had an idea how to improve their career. You cannot realistically expect to exit a fATPL course with 250hrs, and land a RHS job, and you certainly shouldn't expect to just becasue you went to a well known school.....just like a university graduate expecting to paid 90,000 a year just because they come out with a degree. In the real world this doesn't happen.
Anyway, off for my cigar and Bacardi 151 now, I passed my CPL ME IR check ride so can now consider myself a proffessional Pilot
Cyer
EA
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 561
Likes: 0
From: Outlawed
I've read through my previous posts and I'm still struggling to see what 'agenda' I'm alledgedly pushing. My posts were simply a response to the 'go home little boy' and the 'you're f****** it up for the rest of us' comments from the wannabes who expect everything on a platter.
Someone may have slightly less experience than the Wright Brothers and everything from a Spifire to Concorde in their log book. They may win Moderator of the Year and the respect and admiration of their cronies. That won't necessarily stop them from posting arrogant !!!!e.
Someone may have slightly less experience than the Wright Brothers and everything from a Spifire to Concorde in their log book. They may win Moderator of the Year and the respect and admiration of their cronies. That won't necessarily stop them from posting arrogant !!!!e.
Last edited by strafer; 14th October 2003 at 23:18.
Joined: Jan 1997
Posts: 7,736
Likes: 1
From: UK
strafer, I did bother to review your posts across the site before my original post.
Your views were especially noticeable after reminding myself of your very strong opinions on not paying up front for anything and the 'usurers' lending money to wannabees. I'm pretty certain you're one of very few who've trotted out that word in context on this site.......
If that isn't an agenda - do what you want, spend what you want, ignore all others - I don't know what is. In itself that's not a problem and we'd never dream of commenting. However, when you're preaching it regarding these long running crap schemes we step in. We step in because you're vocally adding to the weight of opinion supporting schemes you admit you know absolutely nothing about.
However, they are things that I do know about. They are things that, like the Guvnor, we are involved in assisting the police and prosecutors in bringing charges.
I'm happy for the forum readers to come to their own judgement regarding arrogance quotients.
I'm equally happy for them to continue thinking through why with over 20,000 ATPL's using the site each day they don't bother to assist you on this part of the site.
Finally, 9 days after the original request for help and 40,000 plus per day reading the site there still isn't a single first or even second hand tale from a 'graduate' of one of these schemes. Surely even a fearsome, freeminded, freespeaking libertarian such as yourself can draw the conclusion most others have? Or do you think we at the Towers should stand by and support your Darwinian appproach to jobs. Let the terminally inexperienced and naive simply spend their way right out of the job market and make more room for the older guys?
There's a certain rugged ruthlessness to it I must admit we have to grudgingly admire
Regards
Rob
Your views were especially noticeable after reminding myself of your very strong opinions on not paying up front for anything and the 'usurers' lending money to wannabees. I'm pretty certain you're one of very few who've trotted out that word in context on this site.......
A Ventura - never admit you've got more money than sense on this website, there's loads of little bolsheviks just waiting to burn your petit beorgouis house down.
To the 'It f***s it up for the rest of us' posters- ah, diddums. You might not be aware that there are many other wannabe pilots who are doing the training because it's what they want to do. Whether you can get a job or not, is not something that keeps them awake at night.
To the 'It f***s it up for the rest of us' posters- ah, diddums. You might not be aware that there are many other wannabe pilots who are doing the training because it's what they want to do. Whether you can get a job or not, is not something that keeps them awake at night.
However, they are things that I do know about. They are things that, like the Guvnor, we are involved in assisting the police and prosecutors in bringing charges.
I'm happy for the forum readers to come to their own judgement regarding arrogance quotients.
I'm equally happy for them to continue thinking through why with over 20,000 ATPL's using the site each day they don't bother to assist you on this part of the site.
Finally, 9 days after the original request for help and 40,000 plus per day reading the site there still isn't a single first or even second hand tale from a 'graduate' of one of these schemes. Surely even a fearsome, freeminded, freespeaking libertarian such as yourself can draw the conclusion most others have? Or do you think we at the Towers should stand by and support your Darwinian appproach to jobs. Let the terminally inexperienced and naive simply spend their way right out of the job market and make more room for the older guys?
There's a certain rugged ruthlessness to it I must admit we have to grudgingly admire
Regards
Rob
Last edited by PPRuNe Towers; 15th October 2003 at 00:26.
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 561
Likes: 0
From: Outlawed
Nice hyperbole My LLoyd, you have a way with words I'll give you that.
I'll try to be brief...
1) Now I understand - what you call an agenda, I would just call an opinion. I'm fully prepared to admit to what I don't know, which is why I didn't express an opinion of the pros and cons of Eagle Jet (although it does sound like an utter waste of money to my inexperienced eyes). However, my opinions on this thread and others were expressed at the fairly substantial number of my potential collegues who think that there is a certain level to which you should pay for your own training, but any forking out of money after that is somehow 'letting the side down'. My opinion could be summed up as 'Life isn't always fair and if you want to be a pilot in the current climate, then you have to do whatever it takes'. I wouldn't have thought that differed drastically from most other wannabes, stillis's or hasbeens.
2) Fearsome, freeminded and freespeaking as I am - I will try and help others if I have the knowledge. If someone still goes ahead and wastes their money on unnecessary training after big-brained chaps such as yourself have told them not to, I shan't tell them otherwise.
3) Use of the word usurious - 'twas a tongue-in-cheekish swipe at the banks, who whilst happy to help you through your training, will obviously want their pound of flesh at the end. Won't stop me using them if I have to though, and hats off to HSBC who at least seem to know there is such a thing as commercial aviation training. I would obviously never use the word usurious in real life, as no one I know would have a clue what it meant.
4) Moderators take this BB and their roles within it far too seriously. Fact? No just my opinion (sorry, 'agenda'). I appreciate the work you've put in to make this the best aviation site around (IMHA) but chill Bobbyboy, chill.
Not brief, but never mind.
I'll try to be brief...
1) Now I understand - what you call an agenda, I would just call an opinion. I'm fully prepared to admit to what I don't know, which is why I didn't express an opinion of the pros and cons of Eagle Jet (although it does sound like an utter waste of money to my inexperienced eyes). However, my opinions on this thread and others were expressed at the fairly substantial number of my potential collegues who think that there is a certain level to which you should pay for your own training, but any forking out of money after that is somehow 'letting the side down'. My opinion could be summed up as 'Life isn't always fair and if you want to be a pilot in the current climate, then you have to do whatever it takes'. I wouldn't have thought that differed drastically from most other wannabes, stillis's or hasbeens.
2) Fearsome, freeminded and freespeaking as I am - I will try and help others if I have the knowledge. If someone still goes ahead and wastes their money on unnecessary training after big-brained chaps such as yourself have told them not to, I shan't tell them otherwise.
3) Use of the word usurious - 'twas a tongue-in-cheekish swipe at the banks, who whilst happy to help you through your training, will obviously want their pound of flesh at the end. Won't stop me using them if I have to though, and hats off to HSBC who at least seem to know there is such a thing as commercial aviation training. I would obviously never use the word usurious in real life, as no one I know would have a clue what it meant.
4) Moderators take this BB and their roles within it far too seriously. Fact? No just my opinion (sorry, 'agenda'). I appreciate the work you've put in to make this the best aviation site around (IMHA) but chill Bobbyboy, chill.
Not brief, but never mind.
Joined: Jan 1997
Posts: 7,736
Likes: 1
From: UK
Strafer - anti hyperbole mode go
I made mention of your post because it was out of character with regards to the other posts you've made. Very occasionally asking for help but far more often offering it. You're older than most of the wannabees, have an earning capacity apparently equal to or greater than that of a low cost airline skipper and have previously written warnings or criticism regarding banks, paying up front and the dangers of hot tea bags
Your post stood out for those reasons but most especially because you've detailed and given links on exactly how to check up on (UK) companies in the past. No such advice, even generic, this time - it was strangely uncritical when discussing Ģ30,000 plus sums of money.
Rob
I made mention of your post because it was out of character with regards to the other posts you've made. Very occasionally asking for help but far more often offering it. You're older than most of the wannabees, have an earning capacity apparently equal to or greater than that of a low cost airline skipper and have previously written warnings or criticism regarding banks, paying up front and the dangers of hot tea bags
Your post stood out for those reasons but most especially because you've detailed and given links on exactly how to check up on (UK) companies in the past. No such advice, even generic, this time - it was strangely uncritical when discussing Ģ30,000 plus sums of money.
Rob
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 184
Likes: 0
From: uk
Finance 101
Assuming a 10% average annual return on your investment (not unrealistic if into property / stocks for the long haul), 50,000 GBP invested today would return you 872,470 in 30 years.
Of course, inflation would take a chunk out of it but, if inflation stays at current levels, it'll still be a hefty sum.
100,000 GBP (fATPL + Eaglejet scheme) in 30 years would be worth 1,744,940 GBP....
Fair enough, if you really want the dream you have to spend the first 50k to be in the game - but blowing (or borrowing!!) another 50k before trying every possible other avenue is, frankly, not too bright unless you have a lot of money and won't miss it. Send out CVs, instructing, networking, CTC ATP scheme - there are lots of avenues to try. I know 8 low-hours pilots who got jet jobs in the last few weeks at three different operators.
You have to remember that 100k is not a lot of money if you are talking about getting a mortgage for a house. However, a house appreciates in value. Flying training is NOT, NOT a financial investment - you could probably earn the same money in another industry - it's spending money for something you want to do. Nothing wrong with that but don't set yourself up for unhappiness in the future by borrowing anything but the minimum you have to.
Anyone who wants to play with compound interest rates, lookup the FV (Future Value) function in Excel Help.
Regarding the Eaglejet scheme -
According to Stephane (Eaglejet) they have links with airlines in Prague, Istanbul and Scandanavia. I understand from someone else the A320 line training may be offered in Portugal. Of course, which airlines they are is not easy to find out. Eaglejet direct UK pilots to Astraeus / Bond for the 737 Type Rating and Gecat for the A320 and say they don't make money on this portion - only commission on the line training apparently. I believe them as they are happy if you get your own TR from whoever and just buy the line training from them.
Providing Eaglejet (and the airlines they use) check out as legitimate, I don't see why this scheme is any different in principle to Astraues offering 100hrs line training - they are just offering a more useful amount of hours - at least you'd be able to unfreeze your fATPL. Building hours by instructing is not everyone's cup of tea and 500hrs on this route is half the cost of piston twin time.
Assuming a 10% average annual return on your investment (not unrealistic if into property / stocks for the long haul), 50,000 GBP invested today would return you 872,470 in 30 years.
Of course, inflation would take a chunk out of it but, if inflation stays at current levels, it'll still be a hefty sum.
100,000 GBP (fATPL + Eaglejet scheme) in 30 years would be worth 1,744,940 GBP....
Fair enough, if you really want the dream you have to spend the first 50k to be in the game - but blowing (or borrowing!!) another 50k before trying every possible other avenue is, frankly, not too bright unless you have a lot of money and won't miss it. Send out CVs, instructing, networking, CTC ATP scheme - there are lots of avenues to try. I know 8 low-hours pilots who got jet jobs in the last few weeks at three different operators.
You have to remember that 100k is not a lot of money if you are talking about getting a mortgage for a house. However, a house appreciates in value. Flying training is NOT, NOT a financial investment - you could probably earn the same money in another industry - it's spending money for something you want to do. Nothing wrong with that but don't set yourself up for unhappiness in the future by borrowing anything but the minimum you have to.
Anyone who wants to play with compound interest rates, lookup the FV (Future Value) function in Excel Help.
Regarding the Eaglejet scheme -
According to Stephane (Eaglejet) they have links with airlines in Prague, Istanbul and Scandanavia. I understand from someone else the A320 line training may be offered in Portugal. Of course, which airlines they are is not easy to find out. Eaglejet direct UK pilots to Astraeus / Bond for the 737 Type Rating and Gecat for the A320 and say they don't make money on this portion - only commission on the line training apparently. I believe them as they are happy if you get your own TR from whoever and just buy the line training from them.
Providing Eaglejet (and the airlines they use) check out as legitimate, I don't see why this scheme is any different in principle to Astraues offering 100hrs line training - they are just offering a more useful amount of hours - at least you'd be able to unfreeze your fATPL. Building hours by instructing is not everyone's cup of tea and 500hrs on this route is half the cost of piston twin time.
Last edited by buttline; 15th October 2003 at 07:21.
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 320
Likes: 0
From: Under bar stool
I often think the problem is where do you draw the line on paying for flying, would you be prepared to work for free for 3 years because you would be well paided as a captain. Some of us will remember the problem US pilots had ten years back when the only way to get into companies was to pay to fly as an FO for a couple of years. It has taken many years for US pilots to rectify that situation.
I have been qualified for 5 years and know the frustration of seeing ex-pupils and friends moving into jets by paying for various schemes but I still believe it is not good for the future of the industry.
Instructing is much maligned but this led me onto bush flying then air taxi then IR instructing then Turbines and if you put in the work you will get there. Also will you ever recover the money you spend? Probably not and as the number of people who will spend the money on shortcuts increase, the salaries and benefits will decrease.
I have been qualified for 5 years and know the frustration of seeing ex-pupils and friends moving into jets by paying for various schemes but I still believe it is not good for the future of the industry.
Instructing is much maligned but this led me onto bush flying then air taxi then IR instructing then Turbines and if you put in the work you will get there. Also will you ever recover the money you spend? Probably not and as the number of people who will spend the money on shortcuts increase, the salaries and benefits will decrease.