IR before CPL - Is it wise?

[six-sixty]

I don't know the answer, but I am thinking along the same lines. I've started the ATPL studies while working, and aim to quit work some time April/May next year so I can devote myselft full-time to them. I don't expect to have completed them all until Autumn at the earliest, which means bleak wx time just when I need to do my CPL and IR training.

I'm now thinking maybe put the ATPLs on hold, do the IR over the summer, then spend Autumn/Winter on the exams. CPL relatively quick after that, and if necessary over in US if wx still not playing.

There's also the psychological appeal of feeling I've got the hardest bit out of the way. I am going to ask a few schools for their opinion.

[High Wing Drifter]

figair,
Thanks for your views and an interesting slant.

All,
Just thought I would chip in with my latest thoughts: I still prefer this option. My latest reasoning is that if I can't pass the IR, then I cannot see me bothering with the CPL anyway. With input from various sources including FFF's awsome CPL diary I have kind of realised that the CPL is not going to be the main challenge and that altough the CPL is not easy and will hone existing skills, I don't believe it will provide anything instrumental (pardon the pun) towards the IR that I cannot and am not doing in my hour building within the limitations of my PPL.

Given that I will have 70hrs P1 shortly and from my experience of Mod 1 ATPLs, there will be spare capacity during Mod 2 to undertake flying training in parallel it seems sensible to get on with it.

However, I say this giving due heed to LFS' words of caution.

[Megaton]

Personally I think it would be a big mistake to do the IR before the CPL. The CPL is relatively straighforward but provides a useful period of disciplined flying before commencing the muh harder IR. True enough if you do the IR first the CPL will be easier but your chances of getting through the IR in one piece are, IMHO, much less. I saw one student at the school where I did my IR trying to do it before the CPL and he struggled. He already had an IMC rating and a fair amount of ME time and he still found the IR extremely difficult. Not only will the CPL improve your flying skills and discipline but it's an extra 25 hrs in the air before attempting the much more expensive IR. I think your reasoning is flawed: if you can't pass the CPL then you've got no hope with the IR but at least you won't have spent a fortune. You will also save in the longer term if you go pretty much straight from the CPL on to the IR since your skills will be building towards a peak. There's always a reason for conventional wisdom and, in the case, it's right: CPL before IR. No question.

[FlyingForFun]

Six-sixty,

Your plan to do your IR before the ATPL exams won't work I'm afraid... you need to have the exam credits before you can get the IR added to your license. (You can, in theory, do the training and the skills test, but not send off for the rating until you finish the exams, but I don't think that's a good idea...)

FFF
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[Tinstaafl]

My thoughts about general principles:

1. Any disciplined experience eg CPL or IR training will help with passing another rating. A CPL will help you when you do the IR & vica versa.

2. Get the exams out of the way before flying. When you do the flight test(s) you will be expected to be fully conversant with the rules, regs, procedures & applicable knowledge. That's supposed to be what the exams are testing*. Knowing the theory generally means less time spent in the air having it explained to you. It's also a load off your mind, letting you focus on the flying training.

*That opens up the can of worms about the degree of relevence of UK/JAR exams, but that's their intent.


3. A UK IR is a more difficult 'step up' from a PPL than is the step from PPL --> CPL. A case of clambering over a wall then a small step to CPL vs. a medium step to CPL followed by another step to IR.

4. It might be beneficial to look at a combined CPL & IR training course. Structured properly it's possible to leverage ('bring to the table, think outside the box, gain synergies of effort, etc etc etc ) parts of one course to benefit the other course eg the basic IR part of the CPL to provide the initial IR training, the IR navaid work to be used to benefit the CPL navaid work. That sort of thing.

[Hufty]

I just finished my CPL having done the IR first and it worked out OK.

I did find the transition to the CPL phase hard though as I found it hard to resist the temptation to keep my head inside the cockpit for the first few hours of the CPL making it very difficult for myself. I also went over hours on the CPL - you can technically do it in 15 if you have an IR already but I didn't find it helped that much so ended up spending more money than I needed to.

What helped with the IR though was the fact that I was in current flying practice going into it and already held an IMC.

If I was doing it again I'd probably do the CPL first, but only as it would have saved me some money.

Hufty.

[englishal]

This is a problem with the JAA system...whereby pilots tend to go out, hour build, get the CPL and then the IR.

Under the FAA system it is far more common to get the PPL, get an IR then get the CPL. The reason behind this is that several years ago the FAA realised that the best rating a pilot could get after the initial PPL was an IR. There used to be a 200Hr TT stipulation before being able to get the IR, which was revised down to 130hrs then dropped completely. The studies showed that pilots were killing themselves burning holes in the sky trying to build hours towards the magic 200 needed for the IR or the magic 250 needed to get the FAA CPL. Once the TT minima was dropped, fatalities dropped significantly. (people weren't pushing the edge of the envelope to get their hours)

I would totally recommend getting the IR BEFORE getting the CPL if you can. If you have the ATPLs out of the way then there is nothing stopping you.

I think the JAA examination system should be more modular so you can "bolt on" additional exams, that way a PPL can then take the IR and exams, fly around for a while, then take the CPL (CPL exams) fly around for a while, then take the ATPL exams. Seems to make sense.

Cheers
EA

[FlyingForFun]

Seems to make sense

I agree. Which is probably why they don't do it that way

However, if you're saying that the biggest reason for doing the IR before the CPL is to keep you safe when hour-building, then I'd disagree - in the UK, the IMC rating can do that, and I've already said on another thread that this is a beneficial thing to do during hour-building. I'm not saying that you shouldn't do the IR first - just that if safety is the main, or only, reason for doing so then there's a flaw in the logic.

FFF
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[Groundbased]

I think any cost savings may be risky, because I am given to understand that the IR is the most expensive course to retake should you have to, coming in at around £1k each time you take it.

It's cropped up during the research I've been doing into various options, but I can only say I'm planning to do the IR later because that is what the FTO's I have been to recommend.

It might be something for further analysis once the ppl is out of the way and everyone has a better idea of how you are likely to progress, if you are going the modular route of course.

[High Wing Drifter]

Not sure there is a flaw in the logic, just different weightings to the various paramaters used to make a judgement

[englishal]

just that if safety is the main, or only, reason for doing so then there's a flaw in the logic.

Its not the main reason to do it....it maybe in the US but not in the UK as you rightly point out.

I'd like to see a more modular approach to commercial training in JAR land, so you can keep bolting bits on as and when is appropriate. You yourself know that when you were "a basic PPL" you had passed the ATPLs and knew all about 737 FMS's and instrument procedures but was it really relevant? Must be better to build up in chunks, so you get the PPL, then train for the IR and at the same time do the IR exams, then train for the CPL and do the CPL exams, then in a year or two once a little bit more experienced take the ATPL exams....

In my opinion, get an IR early on, and use it, and get good at using it, I suppose it could be called an investment for the future...

Cyer

[Tinstaafl]

Oz has something like that.

ATPL exams don't cover CPL content and nor do they cover IR stuff. You have to do PPL --> CPL --> ATPL & somewhere after PPL & before the ATPL the IR.

An IR can be gained in a single hit or in chunks as a PPL IR, starting with a 'cruise' type of thing that lets you fly off into a high-ish overcast, cruise & then descend through a high-ish overcast ie above MSA/LSALT, using a single navaid type. From that foundation the pilot can add all the bolt-ons: CTA, different aids for different approaches & navigation, IFR departures etc etc.

I suspect it works out a bit more expensive but does allow the cost to be spread over quite a bit of time. A 'full' IR isn't too much of a sod to do either.

The PPL IR is fairly new. Probably the most common path in Oz is PPL (single engine) --> often a night VFR rating( (s/e) --> CPL (s/e) --> sometimes an intructor rating --> IR (m/e) --> ATPL theory --> ATPL

[FlyingForFun]

Englishal,

I'm nit-picking now, but it is actually possible to "build up in chunks, so you get the PPL, then train for the IR and at the same time do the IR exams, then train for the CPL and do the CPL exams, then in a year or two once a little bit more experienced take the ATPL exams".

I know exactly what you mean, though. No one does it this way in JAR land because in practice it would mean taking more than twice as many exams.... What you mean is that it would be nice if there was a realistic way of doing this, and I couldn't agree more!

FFF
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[englishal]

But if you do the JAA CPL exams under JAR, then later on want to bolt on the ATPLs, don't you have to re-sit all exams?

I did the basic JAA PPL, then added on the FAA IR to my FAA licence issued on the basis of my JAA PPL. Then I added on the FAA multi and also IR privileges at the same time. Then I did the Multi CPL and becasue I had IR privileges on the private multi, these directly transferred to the Commercial multi. Then I added on the single engine commercial, and becasue I took the initial CPL check ride in a ME aircraft, this got rid of the requriement to take the CPL SE check ride in a complex aircraft.

I am toying with the idea of converting to JAA, BUT for me the big stumbling blovk is that I don't have the ATPLs (or CPLs). If I did then I'd convert like a shot.....

Ah well, a project for 2004

Cyer

[NineEighteen]

Thanks to all for the replies on this thread. I'm still undecided but I'll let you know my decision once I've made it.

Meanwhile...Groundbased said:

It's cropped up during the research I've been doing into various options, but I can only say I'm planning to do the IR later because that is what the FTO's I have been to recommend.

Did these FTO's say why they recommend doing the IR later? Is it that figair's theory is correct?

This option seems to be the preferred one as gives slightly more money to the FTO.

Or is there a less cynical reason?

Thanks
0918

[Linda Mollison]

pink flamingo,

The reason schools don't necessarily respond is that they cannot be seen to be advertising!

I work for a school (unnamed) and will try to answer your question.

As previous people on this thread have stated it really depends on how you want to do your training, (whether you want to do it all at once, or whether you want a break between courses) and what you want to do after you have finished your training.

For example, if you want to spend some time instructing before you apply for an airline position, there is not too much point in doing your IR until later. You would have to renew it after a year (at a cost) and you get increasingly less current as time goes by. So in this case, you would do your CPL first.

If, however, you want to do all of the training continuously you have three optoins:

1.Do the CPL in a single engined aircraft (complex single) followed by the Multi Rating, followed by the IR.

2.

Oops, I hit submit!

To continue:

2. Do the CPL in a multi engined aircraft (you do the Multi rating test at the same time as the CPL skill test), followed by the IR

3. Do the Multi Rating, followed by the IR followed by the CPL in a single-engined aircraft

4. Do the Multi Rating, followed by the IR, followed by the CPL in a twin-engined aircraft.

Option 1:

25 hour CPL course, followed by 6 hour Multi rating course, followed by 50 hour IR course.

Option 2:

28 hour CPL course, followed by 6 hour Multi Rating course followed by 50 hour IR course.

Option 3.

6 hour Multi Rating course, followed by 55 hour IR course, followed by 15 hour CPL course

Option 4:

6 hour Multi Rating course, followed by 55 hour IR course, followed by 15 hour CPL course.

Which option you choose will depend upon two things: how many multi hours you require (the minimum, or as many as you can accrue), and what your abilities are.

If you are average or below, I suggest that you do the CPL first in a single engined aircraft, then the multi, then the IR. This will build your training slowly, getting more complex with time.

If you are above average I would suggest that you do Option 2 or option 4. There is not really much to choose between the two options. Weather may be a factor. It may be a good idea to choose whether you do the CPL first or second depending upon what time of the year you are planning to start.

The number of multi hours you achieve will depend upon which option you choose and how much you want to spend although, in the big picture, the extra spend to achieve more multi hours is not great.

Our recommended route is CPL in a multi, followed by the IR which, with our course structures, will give you a minimum of 46 hours in a multi. Compare this with the 'standard' 24 hours which many schools offer.

Hope this helps

Linda

[High Wing Drifter]

Option 2:

28 hour CPL course, followed by 6 hour Multi Rating course followed by 50 hour IR course.

Thanks for the info, just one query: As far as I can make out, LASORS says 28 hour CPL including 8 hours ME + skills test = CPL and Multi Rating. So no need for the 6 hour multi course (page 6 section "D1.2(D) Notes"?

[Linda Mollison]

Yes, sorry, HWD.

You are right - Option 2 is a 28 hour CPL (includes the Multi Rating training) course followed by a 50 hour IR course.

I must have had too much Christmas Pudding!

Thanks for pointing it out.

Linda

[NineEighteen]

If you are above average I would suggest that you do Option 2 or option 4.

Thanks for the post Linda. I'm now trying to decide if I'm above, below or simply average.

I still need to build some hours before I reach the minimums for CPL issue and I'd feel much more satisfied if I could complete the hours having become instrument rated. Maybe I'm underestimating the task. I guess time will tell.

0918

[High Wing Drifter]

0918,

Do a GAPAN test, it seems to be specifically designed with the IR in mind. Navigate to www.gapan.org or give 'em a tinkle or something.