IR before CPL - Is it wise?

[NineEighteen]

I'm considering which FTO to do my CPL/IR with and I've come across one that advises doing the IR before the CPL. The IR is a 55 hour course and is followed by a shortened 15 hour CPL course.

Up until now I'd not heard of this approach. Has anyone done it that way around? If not, do 'conventional route' CPL/IR holders have an opinion?

Thanks
0918

[Keygrip]

I've advocated this approach many times - so has the UK CAA.

I held a PPL I/R before going Commercial.

It will also save you 55 hours of "hour building" - but you do need to pick your FTO very, very carefully.

[No. 2]

Keygrip, could you explain your reasons as to why you think that's the better route? I'm suprised that the CAA also recommend doing the IR first?

It seems a safer option to do the CPL first but I can see the advantages of doing the IR first if, like you say, you choose the school very carefully and are up to speed on your VFR skills first.

[buttline]

I did the IR before CPL too. Only because it was February and I knew I'd be twiddling my thumbs due to the wx if I did the CPL first. Also, I wanted to experience some real IMC during my IR not just screens.

I would have to say that it helps to be a bit of a geek - if you can fly approaches in flight sim (MS) while talking on the phone with the wx at minima - having your scan up to speed going into the IR is a big help - the workload is high and your scan needs be automatic by the time you go for test. This will give you some idea if you are ready for an IR. Going into the IR with just the 5 hours of instrument flying from the PPL would be making life reasonably hard IMHO.

However, with the wx as it is right now, I'd be tempted to go for the CPL right now. The fairly regular airmass changes keep the air clean which means good visibility which is crucial for the navigation during the CPL. Save the IR for the winter months when you can enjoy(!) crappy weather and light icing - the experience is invaluable.

Good luck.

[High Wing Drifter]

LASORS is a fascinating tome! Just trying to make sense of it and in the meantime I noticed some stuff I did not know (CPL and combined multi rating as well at 10hr credit in CPL with IR training (see below)). Please chip in and correct where wrong.

This is what it offers (I think!!):

Option 1 (I/R before CPL):
==========================
PPL 45hrs
PPL Test 2hrs
Hour Build 60hrs PiC (assume 10hrs PiC from PPL).
Night Rating 5hrs
MEP Rating 6hrs (req 70hrs PiC)
IR(ME) 55hrs (no 5hr credit coz CPL not passed).
Hour Build 30hrs PiC to bring PiC to 100hrs
CPL 15hrs (10hr dual training credit cuz you dun the IR training of 55hrs. Reqs 100hrs Pic)
IR Test (inc 170A) 5hrs (IR issued - very wide and very toothy big grin)
CPL Test 2.5hrs (CPL issued with min 200hrs pending ATPLs)
Total of 227.5hrs (Now what MCC course shall I do?).

Assume:
PPL = 6k
MEP = 2k
Night = 1k
CPL = 4k
IR = 11k
Hour Build = 9k

Guess Total of 33k + 20% error/unplanned/retakes/etc = 40k


Option 2 (IR after CPL):
========================
PPL 45hrs
PPL Test 2hrs
Hour Build 100hrs (150hrs total. 100hrs PiC, etc)
Night Rating = 5hrs
CPL 28hrs (including MEP rating min of 8hours in a twin)
CPL Test 2.5hrs (in a twin, CPL issues with 200hrs TT)
IR(ME) 50hrs (5hr credit coz CPL passed).
IR Test (inc 170A) 5hrs (IR issued - same grin as before)
Total of 237.5hrs (MCC brochure flick-thru time)

Assume:
PPL = 6k
Night = 1k
CPL = 6k (slightly more expensive with multi rating included)
IR = 11k
Hour Build = 10k

Finger in the air Total of 34k + 20% correction for the unexpected = 41k

I am not sure what to make of it. An estimated £1k saving may seem small, but that will pay for the most of the MCC course.

Also, the prize for the most pointless licence goes to the CPL(A)(R) (a restricted CPL). Licence issue requirements are identical to the CPL(A) but you are only allowed to fly UK registered aircraft. I can't find a direct reference to it in the ANO either???

[ecj]

SE/ME training

Where possible do the SE skill test first. Good building block for the ME - IR phase. Time of year & location can be critical for the SE phase. Depths of winter has been known to be somewhat frustrating waiting for suitable VFR conditions.

Having said that if we are blessed with a descent Siberian High in the next few months, visual flying can be wonderful. How lucky do you feel?

[NineEighteen]

but you do need to pick your FTO very, very carefully.

Keygrip, Would you mind expanding on this a little please? I understand that decisions of this magnitude should not be taken lightly but, as I have no experience of professional flying training, I'd appreciate a few pointers.

I assume the transition from PPL(VFR) to PPL(IFR) is more challenging than doing the CPL in between but as it is possible....could you please explain what makes picking an FTO for IR -> CPL different from picking one to train CPL -> IR?

Thanks
0918

[High Wing Drifter]

0918,

The main difference I can see (see my LASORS post above) is that you can cut out 10 hours of CPL intrument training. But then you have to do the multi before hand. Notwithstanding the major task of taking full control of your training and getting the FTO to do it your way.

I cannot see Keygrip's original point that it saves 55 hours of hour building and the inference that it is as such, substantially cheaper.

I guess your best bet is to talk to the dedicated IR providers such as Bristol Flight Training and see what they think.

[NineEighteen]

HWD,

I agree with you about the alleged difference in price; I too made a rough calculation and didn't see a considerable saving.

Regarding the training, you say

Notwithstanding the major task of taking full control of your training and getting the FTO to do it your way.

It was the FTO's suggestion that I do the training this way around, not mine. Being the cynic that I am, I started wondering what's in it for the FTO? It actually sounds a more sensible approach to me but not having had practical experience, I'm a wondering why most of the other FTO's do not mention doing it this way? Particularly if the CAA recommend it.

Is going straight from PPL to IR too ambitious?

0918

[High Wing Drifter]

'ave a gander at this link:

http://www.bfctraining.co.uk/courses...hp?page=jaa_ir

[NineEighteen]

Thanks very much for that HWD. I guess the most important thing is to speak to all prospective FTO's and find out their feelings on the best order to follow...and their reasons. As you say, BFC are experienced with IR training and even state their recommendation on the website.

P.S. Should I contact BFC and point out their spelling error on that page?

[High Wing Drifter]

0918,

No problemo. Yeah give em a nudge about the spelling. Silly thing is I didn't notice it until you pointed it out

Armpit,

Good point. I was infact thinking of not doing the IR until after getting an FI for the weekends for that very same reason. However, I am not sure about the FI at all at the moment and I quite like the idea of getting the IR before the CPL. However, a combined CPL and Multi course would probably be my first choice at the moment prior to the IR.

[NineEighteen]

Thanks for posting that Armpit. That is indeed a good point and I'd not considered it at all.

HWD it sounds like you're in a similar quandary. I still need some hours before I can start training, so I have a bit of time to consider my options. Good luck with whatever you decide. I'll report back when/if my route becomes a little clearer.

[High Wing Drifter]

0918,

Been thinking 'bout this one. I am just about convinced this is the best course of action for me. I reckon I should do my Night Qual late November(ish) and then move onto the ME rating. I have a share in an AA5 that I can then build hours in without worrying about night through the Winter as necessary (in theory!). Once the Night and Twin ratings are established I will start the ME IR. However, I have no intention of quiting work yet so I am quite happy to attempt this part-time over several months. Combined with ATPLs and other misc private flights in my AA5 that should build the hours quite nicely. I imagine I may have a couple of months of ATPL study left once the IR is through. Time to get more hours in to ensure that magic 100 PiC and get the CPL out of the way. By the end I should have 230-250+hrs.

The interleaving of training will be much more convienient than waiting until I have met the course CPL requirements before resuming flying training.

If there is a flaw in this plan then I imagine it lies with the part-time IR idea. However, at the moment I have not the knowledge to udnerstand why doing an IR part-time could be a specific problem.

Laters!

[FlyingForFun]

HWD,

Just one small snag - you must comlete the exams before you can be issued with the IR. I'm not actually sure whether you can do the test, or the training, before you complete the exams, I'd imagine the answer lies somewhere in LASORS - but make sure you know the implications of this before you start!

FFF
--------------

[High Wing Drifter]

Have looked it up in LASORS (see my post further up). You can do the entire course but only get issued with the rating once the theory stuff is complete. In addition you don't need to complete the instrument portion of the CPL training which amounts to a 10 hour credit.

[LFS]

HWD,

You may be able to complete the course without all the exams but you will not be allowed to sit the IR test until you have passed at least the IR exams. Make life easier on yourself just get the exams out of the way then focus on the flying courses. It is unlikely that you will save any significant amount of money at the end of the day by trying to do things in a different order.

LFS

[High Wing Drifter]

LFS,

Thanks for the feedback. Yes you are right. My answer lacked precision. Re the potential problems, unless there are specific problems with doing the IR part-time I think this will synchronise reasonably closely with the completion of the ATPLs. I worked out, there would probably be a small saving of about £1k (in theory!!). That saving is not the driver for this plan though.

[LFS]

HWD,

Thats fair enough as long as you are realistic. We have had a candidate before try to start the training before finishing all the exams, they droppped a couple of exams and had to wait nearly two months until they could pass their exams. Needless to say that messed up their training. A lot of people try to save themselves time and money by doing it all at once, in my view the best option is to take everything one at a time. You may only have to meet the requirements when your licence is issued, however I believe the spirit of the requirements is to have them all me before commencing your commercial / IR training.

LFS

[NineEighteen]

I thought I'd resurrect this thread because I'm still wondering if tackling the IR first is a good idea.

I have passed all 14 ATPL exams and I'm 60 hours P1 and 103 hours TT and currently building hours.

Any more views?