IR before CPL - Is it wise?
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Hi guys,
Just a little point that hasn't been mentioned yet,if you go directly into a Twin after having only been in a single not complex you will have to get used to the variable pitch prop,the MP gauge and obviously the rectractable gear .I know it doesn't take a long time to get used to it but still a few more things to think of,and considering that you are learning to fly the twin these few more things to think about could result in overloading your brain for the first few hours(very expensive hours).Now you could argue that you can include some complex time during your hour building to get used to it and that could be an option.
An other point is that during the CPL you are given 10 hours instruction on instrument flying so that 's a good exercise for the IR and also reduces the time of the IR course from 55 to 50 hours if you have a CPL or if you passed the CPL skill test .
CPL,MULTI IR is an "easyer progression" in difficulty in fact you will start on a single,then single complex,then multi vfr,then multi ifr something that I would call a natural development of flying skills and tasks.
In the USA they do PPL and then IR...ok but you do the IR in a single not complex ....then cpl(complex) then Multi vfr with the multi add on to your single IR....much easyer than going from a C152 to a PA34 and fly on instruments!
The problem is that in the UK an IR on a single is useless!!! because you can't have a multi add on to your single IR by only shutting two approaches like in the USA but you have to go through the full MULTI IR test!
However the final decision rests with you I can only wish you the best of luck!
CFTO
Just a little point that hasn't been mentioned yet,if you go directly into a Twin after having only been in a single not complex you will have to get used to the variable pitch prop,the MP gauge and obviously the rectractable gear .I know it doesn't take a long time to get used to it but still a few more things to think of,and considering that you are learning to fly the twin these few more things to think about could result in overloading your brain for the first few hours(very expensive hours).Now you could argue that you can include some complex time during your hour building to get used to it and that could be an option.
An other point is that during the CPL you are given 10 hours instruction on instrument flying so that 's a good exercise for the IR and also reduces the time of the IR course from 55 to 50 hours if you have a CPL or if you passed the CPL skill test .
CPL,MULTI IR is an "easyer progression" in difficulty in fact you will start on a single,then single complex,then multi vfr,then multi ifr something that I would call a natural development of flying skills and tasks.
In the USA they do PPL and then IR...ok but you do the IR in a single not complex ....then cpl(complex) then Multi vfr with the multi add on to your single IR....much easyer than going from a C152 to a PA34 and fly on instruments!
The problem is that in the UK an IR on a single is useless!!! because you can't have a multi add on to your single IR by only shutting two approaches like in the USA but you have to go through the full MULTI IR test!
However the final decision rests with you I can only wish you the best of luck!
CFTO
Thread Starter
Thanks for the GAPAN link HWD but I considered this before. I got the impression that the test was more valid for the pre-PPL wannabe. I may be wrong but I'm pretty confident that I have what it takes to pass the IR without too much trouble.
I guess I have the same reservations that most do about spending a great deal of cash for a rating that I may never get to fully exploit. I think I'm gonna have to follow the 0918 method for getting things done. Weigh up the pro's and con's and then do it anyway!
Best of luck!
0918
I guess I have the same reservations that most do about spending a great deal of cash for a rating that I may never get to fully exploit. I think I'm gonna have to follow the 0918 method for getting things done. Weigh up the pro's and con's and then do it anyway!
Best of luck!
0918
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Very useful thread...
This issue affects me directly at the moment too.
Question for Linda Mollison -
At the moment I think that your 'Option 2' would be the right one for me, however, I am a bit confused by the following statement that you made...
Could you explain what course would give you a whopping 46 hours twin time please? I thought that the above example would provide perhaps 30 hours twin time at the most?
Haul.
Question for Linda Mollison -
At the moment I think that your 'Option 2' would be the right one for me, however, I am a bit confused by the following statement that you made...
Our recommended route is CPL in a multi, followed by the IR which, with our course structures, will give you a minimum of 46 hours in a multi. Compare this with the 'standard' 24 hours which many schools offer.
Haul.
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I got the impression that the test was more valid for the pre-PPL wannabe. I may be wrong but I'm pretty confident that I have what it takes to pass the IR without too much trouble.
Sorry for the curve-ball.
I'm gonna have to follow the 0918 method for getting things done. Weigh up the pro's and con's and then do it anyway!
Last edited by High Wing Drifter; 25th Jan 2004 at 20:28.
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Haul By Cable
You have two options to build that number of hours:
1. Multi engine CPL (5 hours simulator, 23 hours in the twin plus 2 for test). Then Instrument Rating (30 hours in a FNPT2, 20 hours in the twin plus 2 hour test).
I make that 43 hours, plus 4 hours test (i.e. 47) which, if you get a first time pass in each test, is P1S.
2. Multi Rating (6 hours in the twin plus 1 hour test), Instrument Rating (30 hours in FNPT2 simulator, 20 hours in the twin plus 2 hour test), then CPL (15 hours in the twin plus 2 hour test).
I make that 41 hours plus 5 hours test (again P1S with first time passes), i.e 46 hours.
Our 'standard' option is CPL in the complex single, 6 hours plus one hour test for the multi, and 30 hours FNPT2, 20 hours aircraft for the IR plus 2 hour test.
I make that 26 hours training plus 3 hours test (i.e. 29).
The interesting thing is that there is a difference of less than £1,000 between the price of the standard option and either of the two options detailed above!
Linda
You have two options to build that number of hours:
1. Multi engine CPL (5 hours simulator, 23 hours in the twin plus 2 for test). Then Instrument Rating (30 hours in a FNPT2, 20 hours in the twin plus 2 hour test).
I make that 43 hours, plus 4 hours test (i.e. 47) which, if you get a first time pass in each test, is P1S.
2. Multi Rating (6 hours in the twin plus 1 hour test), Instrument Rating (30 hours in FNPT2 simulator, 20 hours in the twin plus 2 hour test), then CPL (15 hours in the twin plus 2 hour test).
I make that 41 hours plus 5 hours test (again P1S with first time passes), i.e 46 hours.
Our 'standard' option is CPL in the complex single, 6 hours plus one hour test for the multi, and 30 hours FNPT2, 20 hours aircraft for the IR plus 2 hour test.
I make that 26 hours training plus 3 hours test (i.e. 29).
The interesting thing is that there is a difference of less than £1,000 between the price of the standard option and either of the two options detailed above!
Linda
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Linda Mollison -
I'm sorry, I'm still a bit confused. I was under the impression that the various 'options' that you detailed were representative of the courses your school provides.
I was unable to find any reference to a 47 hour option on your website and was of the understanding that your statement...
... was referring to the multi CPL course you advertise...
When I added this to the 50 hour IR...
... I thought it gave 30 hours in a twin (perhaps 34 adding 4 hours for tests)? I realise that if you have a lot of money you could perhaps do every hour of the Multi/CPL/IR in a twin and come out with 100% twin time - not sure many people would turn that down 
but after scratching my head for a while I have to conclude that...
... is perhaps a bit of a misleading statement to make?
Indeed (regarding your last post), I am truely and genuinely interested to know how a Multi/CPL/IR course with 43 hours twin training time can vary by only £1000 when compared to a Multi/CPL/IR course of only 26 hours twin training time!
Cheers,
Haul.
I'm sorry, I'm still a bit confused. I was under the impression that the various 'options' that you detailed were representative of the courses your school provides.
I was unable to find any reference to a 47 hour option on your website and was of the understanding that your statement...
Option 2 is a 28 hour CPL (includes the Multi Rating training) course followed by a 50 hour IR course.
Our special combined 28-hour CPL(A) and Multi Rating is really worth considering, for those who do not already hold a multi rating. The course is structured as follows:
13 hours Beech 24 + 3 hours Frasca 142, to cover visual general handling, navigation and instrument flying
6 hours Multi-Engine Piston Rating Course
2 hours Multi consolidation in our Duchess FNPT2 simulator
2 hours multi CPL handling and navigation
2 hours pre Test CPL profile (‘170A’)
CAA CPL and Multi combined Test
Our course thus consists of 10 hours Duchess aircraft plus an additional 2 hours in the Duchess FNPT2. The standard structure for a multi-engine CPL offered by most schools is just 8 hours multi.
13 hours Beech 24 + 3 hours Frasca 142, to cover visual general handling, navigation and instrument flying
6 hours Multi-Engine Piston Rating Course
2 hours Multi consolidation in our Duchess FNPT2 simulator
2 hours multi CPL handling and navigation
2 hours pre Test CPL profile (‘170A’)
CAA CPL and Multi combined Test
Our course thus consists of 10 hours Duchess aircraft plus an additional 2 hours in the Duchess FNPT2. The standard structure for a multi-engine CPL offered by most schools is just 8 hours multi.
IR Multi 50 hrs, for holders of an ICAO CPL(A)
(10 hrs Frasca 142 simulator, 20 hrs Beech 76 FNPT2 simulator, 20 hrs Beech 76 multi aircraft)
(10 hrs Frasca 142 simulator, 20 hrs Beech 76 FNPT2 simulator, 20 hrs Beech 76 multi aircraft)
but after scratching my head for a while I have to conclude that...
Our recommended route is CPL in a multi, followed by the IR which, with our course structures, will give you a minimum of 46 hours in a multi. Compare this with the 'standard' 24 hours which many schools offer.
Indeed (regarding your last post), I am truely and genuinely interested to know how a Multi/CPL/IR course with 43 hours twin training time can vary by only £1000 when compared to a Multi/CPL/IR course of only 26 hours twin training time!
Cheers,
Haul.
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Don't forget as well that the twin training can be done as part of your hour building. So if in the US you can do the 6 hours for the same price or less as renting a complex single over here.
The way i did it was more by luck than Judgment.
Hour building in the US got bored flogging around FL. So started to commute from Winterhaven down to Naples to do twin training.
Started CPL/IR with 150hours on the dot 6 of which were multi.
Wx in Leeds in Jan was utter pants for VFR so spent what seemed like 30mins in the sim doing basic figure of 8's on the approaches at Leeds after doing basic instrument scans etc (actually turned out to be 2 hours). Kevin said that because he had a clean canvas to be worked with (no IMC) he would accept me straight onto IR. So did that plus 1 hour extra for the MEP skills test which you need to have passed to be able to sit the IR with only a PPL.
So thats 6 + 35 + 3.5 MEP so far 44.5
Did the 15 hour CPL course half way through decided I really couldn't be bothered learning all the single complex stuff so after the 172 training getting used to looking out of the window again I went back to the twin. All in i ended up with 55hours MEP time.
The twin cpl test is I think easier than the SEP especially after the IR. The circuit work is just a repeat of the IR apart from you can see out of the window. And no nasty PFL's or glide to lands to be mucking about with.
There is a point which can be made that the MEP CPL's have missed out what some would regard as important training regarding the PFL's etc. But then again how many single engined public transport jobs are there out there. Not many I should think and most if not all other jobs which use singles will be none complex types. And the best way of getting good at rescuing SEPs from trouble is 500 hours + of instructing.
I think it cost an extra £800 quid to do the extra hours in the twin and most of that was solo time for the flight test. The twin was only 20-30 pounds an hour more than the complex single for CPL training. And I prefer the twin hours in the log book than additional single so for 300 ish pounds I got an extra 7-8 twin hours logged.
The IR was bloody hard work but very enjoyable and challanging.
Different ways suit different people. It worked for me.
I for one am looking forward to FFF's diary of his IR.
MJ
The way i did it was more by luck than Judgment.
Hour building in the US got bored flogging around FL. So started to commute from Winterhaven down to Naples to do twin training.
Started CPL/IR with 150hours on the dot 6 of which were multi.
Wx in Leeds in Jan was utter pants for VFR so spent what seemed like 30mins in the sim doing basic figure of 8's on the approaches at Leeds after doing basic instrument scans etc (actually turned out to be 2 hours). Kevin said that because he had a clean canvas to be worked with (no IMC) he would accept me straight onto IR. So did that plus 1 hour extra for the MEP skills test which you need to have passed to be able to sit the IR with only a PPL.
So thats 6 + 35 + 3.5 MEP so far 44.5
Did the 15 hour CPL course half way through decided I really couldn't be bothered learning all the single complex stuff so after the 172 training getting used to looking out of the window again I went back to the twin. All in i ended up with 55hours MEP time.
The twin cpl test is I think easier than the SEP especially after the IR. The circuit work is just a repeat of the IR apart from you can see out of the window. And no nasty PFL's or glide to lands to be mucking about with.
There is a point which can be made that the MEP CPL's have missed out what some would regard as important training regarding the PFL's etc. But then again how many single engined public transport jobs are there out there. Not many I should think and most if not all other jobs which use singles will be none complex types. And the best way of getting good at rescuing SEPs from trouble is 500 hours + of instructing.
I think it cost an extra £800 quid to do the extra hours in the twin and most of that was solo time for the flight test. The twin was only 20-30 pounds an hour more than the complex single for CPL training. And I prefer the twin hours in the log book than additional single so for 300 ish pounds I got an extra 7-8 twin hours logged.
The IR was bloody hard work but very enjoyable and challanging.
Different ways suit different people. It worked for me.
I for one am looking forward to FFF's diary of his IR.
MJ
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mad_jock -
That's really interesting MJ, I'm impressed you managed the IR fine without an IMC - this is making my CPL then IR, or IR then CPL decision harder!
By the way,
... what was your reason for doing 35hrs twin time during IR training? Did you just decide you wanted that much or was it the structure of the course the school offered anyway?
Haul.
P.S. Why don't you give us your diary?
By the way,
So thats 6 + 35 + 3.5 MEP so far 44.5
Haul.
P.S. Why don't you give us your diary?
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Haul By Cable
1. The reason it does not appear on our website is that we need to update it with our latest offers (although our prices have not changed).
2. This is getting a bit too much like advertising so could you contact me by e-mail to discuss the various options (e-mail address is on the website).
Linda
1. The reason it does not appear on our website is that we need to update it with our latest offers (although our prices have not changed).
2. This is getting a bit too much like advertising so could you contact me by e-mail to discuss the various options (e-mail address is on the website).
Linda
Why do it if it's not fun?
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I for one am looking forward to FFF's diary of his IR
And when I do get around to doing the IR, there's a good chance that I will do an FAA IR and then convert it, so I won't be doing things the "conventional" way in any case. But then when was I ever conventional?
FFF
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FIC diary would be a good one as well.
You thought you knew how to fly until you started the FIC
Thats the way the course was structured at LFS. 20 hours FNPT I and the rest in the cougar. And as much solo sim time as you like.
The free solo time made the real difference. Must have had 50-70 hours extra solo time on the sim.
MJ
Its been 2 years since my IR and suppressed traumatic memory syndrome has made it impossible to write a diary.
You thought you knew how to fly until you started the FIC
Thats the way the course was structured at LFS. 20 hours FNPT I and the rest in the cougar. And as much solo sim time as you like.
The free solo time made the real difference. Must have had 50-70 hours extra solo time on the sim.
MJ
Its been 2 years since my IR and suppressed traumatic memory syndrome has made it impossible to write a diary.
