Another school bust
 

The school I have been training with for a PPL has just gone bust.:{

How can I ensure that my training records don't end up in a skip?

Lots of schools go bust so someone must have good experience of this situation and can offer advice.

Due to all the caveats on this forum I never paid in advance even after being offered substantial discounts, many thanks chaps.!

atceng (sometime)

If you sort out a new school the CFI there will get them from your previous school.

If you have any hassels contact the CAA asnd they will sort it out.

Go and retrieve them ASAP :)

Your not allowed to give them directly to the student. In theory some form of examinor is meant to take charge of them and then either pass them to the CAA or directly to the new schools.

Records
 

Thank you for your help.I'll pursue all these suggestions!!

atceng

Gone skating as its nearest thing to flying.

Which school has gone bust?

ps don't worry about it. There is usually alot of stress when it first happens but things usually sort themselves out after a few weeks. Also if you contact the reciever and make sure they know where they are. You get the odd one that thinks they are an asset of the school but don't worry about it the CAA will re-educate them.

I fly with another school based at Cumbernauld and Carlisle, there is no way anything bad will happen to your training records the lady who owned the flying school is not that kind of person and Ted no longer has access to the offices,best think to do is approach both schools at Cumbernauld choose one you think is for you and finish your training with them.

Glad someone listened ... we do wonder sometimes!

The school that has gone bust is believed to be the Cumbernauld Flight Centre. It is certainly not Leading Edge who will be quite happy to hear from any students and members affected who wish to continue training etc.

As far as student records go they have to be given to the CAA who will then pass onto the school that a student transfers to.

Cumbernauld Flight Centre is no more
 

You believe correct. And to be honest, it can't have come sooner. The owner is possibly the most unpopular man in Scottish aviation and you will be hard pressed to find someone with a good word to say about him.
His track record can be seen on Companies House. His outfit has been called Cumbernauld Flight Centre, Cumbernauld Flying Centre, Cumbernauld Flying School and Cumbernauld Flight School. It stinks of someone running away from the financial problems of an organisation.

One has to feel for the students who are owed thousands. It's not nice.

So there are now two schools at Cumbernauld: Border Air Training and Leading Edge. Both will no doubt be assisting students yet to complete their flight training.

Has Cumbernauld ever been able to support three schools?
I suppose we will see history repeating itself shortly for the umpteenth time.
D.O.

I'm ex-student of the above organisation (pick your name), and switched to another provider recently (what a fortunate decision!), but as logbook entries were not signed by the instructor at Cumbernauld, a verification stamp is now required - will it still be possible to get this stamp, or will I have to pursue other means?

If that's his track record then he should be disqualified from being a director ASAP. It could prevent many more students ending up in the same position :=

P.S. I remember flying over Cumbernauld (Dundee to Carlisle via Prestwick) and asked for any conflicting traffic information etc....I never got a response, so I quickly changed to Glasgow radar! and thought miserable ba***rd ...could this guy be the same person!!!

^^

No, Ted never manned the radio as far as I'm aware - doubt he was qualified to.

Cumbernauld serves many other organisations so the radio operators aren't tied to a particular training provider AFAIK.

Leading Edge view
 

Groundhog Day?

The school in question was closed over the weekend but I am not aware of any 'official' position.

We have had several students in talking to us and we have advised them that the position will probably be clarified early in the week.

We have been through this before at Cumbernauld and Inverness.... so we have good experience in dealing with pilots looking to complete their training or progress with their flying.

My personal advise (only my viewpoint) would be for anyone affected to wait for a couple of days for clarification; the airport owner also has experience of this and will be keen to protect the Cumbernauld customers. If a student decides to make a move away from the school in question (it may turn out to be their only choice) then act quickly to request their records be transferred to another school. REMEMBER, they can always move to another school at any point so 'jumping' is not neccessarily a 'questionable' choice.

I run Leading Edge and therefore have our interest a heart! But I do think the advise above in reasonable.

Allan

XL319; The tower is not always manned at EGPG (A/G radio)
If you're in that situation again just make a blind call then
go back to Glasgow radar.

Allan; I think you should try and grab a couple of Katanas
Students like them (alot) and they're quite economical.

Now it's my understanding that student records, to some
extent actually belong to the student and they are just
kept at the flight training organisation for convenience,
But don't quote me, cause itellbiglies.


Happy flying folks

It's always sad to see any school go bust in spite of how they got there.

That said to all the students that are concerned, don't be, the normal course is that the CAA take charge of the records via an examiner or other competent person and you then email the CAA to get the records transferred to whatever school or club you end up in.

It's fairly straightforward and can take a wee while but there's no reason why you cannot continue to train from the point you left off before they get your records on the basis of both your log book and your actual skill level. I'm 100% sure that this will be the case at both BAT and LE knowing people that work at both places and they are good folk that are interested in helping people get their ticket.

While I agree that it unfortunate that this club has gone bust I think it unlikely that the directors will be banned from holding directorships.

One only has to look at the antics of the directors of XL airways who within weeks of going bust were replacing it with Viking airlines, within 18 months that went bust, they are now operating at TorAir.

Lots of people have lost a lot of money each time these people bust a company and they just keep on doing it so it is unlikely the directors of a small company that owes a few £s will be banned when companies house takes no acton when people go bust owing £M's.

I agree with A&C; for a Director to get disqualified he has to do a major fraud and he has to do it to somebody who is big enough and ugly enough and rich enough and principled enough to want to push it through.

In my 33 years in business I have seen a few things but never saw a Director banned. The standard way to do a ripoff and get away with it is to make sure that a) you don't owe money to HMRC (who will otherwise make you personally bankrupt) and b) you don't owe more than a few k to any trade creditor.

I believe that if a flying school goes bust and you paid with a credit card, you can get your money back from the CC company. However their staff is trained to thwart any such claimback (a widespread activity) so this may take some effort.

So long as the hours can be verified, I'd not worry too much about training records anyhow - any new school is going to make their own mind up about you, and ultimately you get a licence on the basis of enough flying hours, and a satisfactory skill test.

G

Don't forget that training records also have the results of any written exams. If you've worked your way through 4 or 5 of those be a dreadful pain to have to re-sit them.

I had to re-sit one exam which the original school lost.

TED VEITCH 3 d tvs and other stuff we have paid for
 

My daughter is one of the most unfortunate youngsters to loose money from this . she started at Cumbernauld flying centre at 14. her father died unexpectedly last year and left her a small sum of money. yes !!!! she has paid in advance and is distraught. I remember TED VEITCH vividly boasting about his recent aquisition of a 3d tv and numerous other gadgets around about the time of my daughters last payment sum of £2000.Now weeks later the place is bust. I visited Maria Dorrian myself today who claims TED has spent all the money !!!. She is the responsible person as the company owner and sole director and no excuses are acceptable to a tearful 15 yr old whos dreams are shattered.I cannot afford to pay her fees.
Mr Veitch.... I demand you sell the 3d tv and refund my daughter her £2000. Mrs Dorrian as a christian I expect you to make sure this refund is expedited. You have Mairis address. Catherine Lewis

3d tv
 

The tv will be next to worthless. So cal said it all, never pay upfront for ANYTHING.

Ted is actually ok, some people bitched about him on this forum, but then people bitch a lot about others.:ugh:

I doubt there will be any pennies, however, whilst it is hard, remain on cordial terms, and if they start up again, perhaps a route may be available to get something back. You never know.

The money was paid by cheque from the trustees holding her money. As considered an educational expense( she wants to be a commercial pilot ) they agreed to pay it. My comments about TED are those expressed by Maria.Maria may also be a victim but she IS the owner of the company and no doubt had profited to some extent. I had faith in this company and the people on the front line.It is difficult to be sympathetic when the director of the company is blaming her manager TED for his extravagant lifestyle. He is apparently on holiday at the moment. Well timed !!!!

It is much more complicated, the manager/Director realtionship I mean.:\

Maria is certainly not a victim.

Well that is something I did consider but their relationship on a personal level is none of my business. She did look pathetic on the doorstep.I know she courts celebrity but I doubtany of this will be benefical to her social standing

She is already around half way through her PPL and the discount was attractive. I blame myself of course. I have no way of reimbursing her which is awful.

I did buy her 5 lessons to judge her commitment for Xmas last year . She is convinced this is the career for her and waS pricing commercial trainingwhen she comes of age .So why should I discourage her

oh and she is now almost 16 and the £2000 was to allow her to concentrate on flying after her standard grades while on hols from school. She will be busy when school recommences with her highers

a long wait for your money
 

Cathy123, comiserations about your daughter, though you say she is determined, so I am sure will find a way to continue, in time. Has she looked at British Women Pilots' Association British Women Pilots' Association - Careers and Licences ? They offer scholarships and bursaries, and maybe give her circumstances would be quite sympathetic.

I foolishly also paid upfront, and am about halfway through training (first solo just before they shut up shop) but did have the wit to pay with credit card. Unfortunately can't get a refund from CC co. until some closure on situation with CFC, and that could take ages. Even airfield people don't know what is happening yet. Meanwhile do I jump ship e.g. to Leading Edge or someone at Prestwick, which means change of type, probably Cessna, or hang on in case this resolves itself and I can get value from what they owe me. I think probably the former.

I was assured by airfield guy that our flying records are safe.

While you won't like this £2000 is a fairly small portion of what you're committing to in commercial training on the basis of a gamble that she might get a job at the end, so at least you have lost relatively little so that when you do have to fork out more, you'll be paying by credit card. You could have lost £60k!

I'm sure she's a smart girl and will do well but this is one of those things that happens, not just in flying but in all sorts of ways, my wife lost her wedding dress a few weeks before we got married because a place went bust and while
Everything in the end turned out okay, it's not like the dress was doing the actual getting married....
People do say "don't pay for anything up front" it doesn't always wash in many lines of work, sometimes you're left with no choice and you have to pay up front, when you do use a credit card even if it costs you slightly more.

Flying schools go bust frequently and they don't go a little bust so normally the bank is the one that appoints the administrator and the administrator (normally a subsidiary of the bank) is the one that gets paid first, after that there's rarely any money left but you should definitely apply to the administrator for recognition as a creditor, you may get something.

As for Maria, she is the owner, the buck stops right at her feet and while Ted ran the business Maria is the one that has the legal responsibility to ensure that it is run properly. If you can prove that she didn't then the limited liability becomes significantly less limited.

maybe the trustees should have been a bit more careful with her money is there any recourse from them ?. going on to do commercial training if she goes the modular she will save lots more than £2000.
Best of luck to her

Hi guys ... thank you so much for your input. Yes this is a small sum in the grand scheme of things and she does have enough funds remaining to complete a ppl and a commercial training package. As you can imagine she sees this money as a gift from her father who died and is dreadfully upset and I feel responsible . As for Maria ...I did tell her I was uninterested in her situation as I suspected she was having a relationship with Ted and that SHE was indeed responsible. I can only wait and see. Yes I will ensure that Mairi pays as she goes along for now . Neither of us owns a credit card .A lesson learned but I am pursuing it through legal channels and other means .

Hi yes we are aware of all of the above including exams ,medical classes etc . This she had plans to do up to age 17 to suit around her school schedule, she has not taken any of this lightly and knows fully the path and expense required. I am just grateful she has no plans to buy crap or pee her funds down the loo .; As for not getting a job ... she wants to be an aviator be that passenger , or freight etc etc . She is just very upset about her dad and for reasons explained before .

Oh dear. That's the first I've heard about this. Sorry to hear about your daughter's woes Cathy. That's the horrid side of this business at times.

I can't say I'm particularly surprised by any of this unfortunately.

How do you solve a problem like Maria?
 

I can see it now, The Company Director, The Actress and The Bishop.

Elaine C Smith is to play Maria Dorrian's pal Susan Boyle in the new production of SuBo. It seems that Maria has befriended subo and stuck up for her after an "attack" in the Express re Subo and Padre Pio. (Those not of the Catholic persuasion of Imaginary Friends may skip this bit) Maybe Cardinal O'Brien could be persuaded to have a word in Maria's ear.

I understand from my Mum, who knows about such things, that a Mass can be said for virtually any case that needs divine intervention. So.... at the risk of good money after bad........ maybe someone could find which Chapel the sainted Maria is to be found at on a Sunday and slip the incumbent £20 * to say a mass for the swift and safe return of the Student Notes and the balance of the £2,000.

Obviously in order for the prayers of the assembled congregation to be effective, they would need to have some details of the problem.

The journalist, Sunday Express reporter Ben Borland, who was tarnished by Mrs. Dorrian's response to a bit of standard rehashing of news from the Catholic Obvserver, may well be interested enough to pursue this line of newsworthy stuff in a quiet week.

With a public profile such as Mrs. Dorrian tries to maintain, I'd have thought it ill advised to dismiss such a heart tugging story as this young girl who dreamed a dream, her deceased Dad and a litany (see what I did there?) of failed business enterprises.

This could grow arms and legs!


* Cash only according to Mum, something to do with DWP/HMRC guidlelines.

Hi , Yes this was my referral to courting celebrity.

The media has been informed and perhaps the aforementioned christian will reimburse Mairi for her financial loss which has without question opened the wounds caused by her bereavement

I'm not sure that's entirely accurate. If she were studying for an NPPL then a medical declaration by her GP would suffice for solo flight.


I understand the advice of don't pay for all that training until you know there is no medical obstruction, but I'd suggest that if you really want to fly, spend the money on flying not doctors, until you NEED to spend it on Doctors.

My view would be for anyone wanting to be a professional pilot to get themselves a CAA Class 1 medical ASAP.

Once you have that in the bag, you have the Demonstrated Ability concession for the rest of your life.

And your health is only going to go downhill :)

In fact I would recommend a private pilot to do the same, because a Class 1 locks in certain handy privileges (connected with the IR), and renewing a Class 1 should not cost much more than renewing a Class 2.

Really sad about losing money via a bent school, but this happens all the time. I've been flying only 11 years, but have seen several schools go bust at my airfield, in all cases with a total loss of student deposits and in at least one case (that I know of) following a major "inside job" done by the "CFI".

she needs her medical yes before she can go solo and that was one of the "to do " things for his summer. I hope that the people who are involved dig deep into their personal finances and refund Mairi her money. Time will tell. The press hounds are very hungry and already have some interesting information.

Cathy, avoid disappointment and expect nothing, in all likelyhood that's what she'll get.

Get a credit card :)