Yes, I have learned from this mistake and it wont happen again to her.If I can make those involved uncomfortable by publicising their actions to the commuities they value , then I will.

In, Twist, Out.

I may sound like a woman scorned... the thing is they are not officially in administration so I will try and get my daughters money back before this happens. The people involved can at the moment squirrel money away without recourse if no attempts are made.

Go for it. If they are officially still trading, then you are perfectly entitled to get your money back.

If they say no, then go to the small claims court. It costs you nothing and will force a reaction.

Good luck and I hope the threat of it is enough to make them do the right thing.

There is a maximum of 750.00 at small claims court. Also the school was a ltd. company I believe

I will try EVERYTHING in my power.Ms Dorrian is a prominent person in the Catholic church and a " dear friend " of the famous Susan Boyle . I hope she will consider the embarrasment more costly than £2000 owed to my daughter.

I know you are, understandably, upset. You have every right to be:rolleyes:

However, mounting anger and vengeance, which I am now reading into this, does not generally get you very far.

A sit down, a think about things, and a clear plan on how to achieve your goals, would in my view, be the better action plan.

Just my thought for the day:uhoh:

Maxred it's £5000 maximum in the small claims court.

See here Small Claims Court | The Ultimate Free Guide | Smarta

Not so sure in Scotland. Will need to check again, maybe they put it up recently.

Apologies if I am wrong.

It used to be £750 in Scotland...I now believe it to be £3000, but it's a different system anyway up here. The jocks like to do their legal thingys their own way.

Get mad, get even... or just get on with life?

Never pay up front. Lesson learned.

If you do, pay something with a credit card.

The doors have shut, presumably because there is no money. Perhaps not even enough to go into liquidation. That is what happened with AerosportUK who used to import the C42s we use - and took a £500 credit note of mine with them.

If there was money, they would surely have stayed open all through the peak summer season.

Therefore: pursuing any court action, small claims or otherwise, is a waste of time, effort, energy and the small sum of money involved.

Pursuing a director personally through shame and embarassment in front of personal contacts is a risky option.

You could, in one view, be seen by people who are more the other person's pals than yours, as carrying out a vendetta and thus be the "bad" person! Unfair, possibly. But reality, yes.

At worst, you could find yourself accused of harassment - and possible defamation. Company directors do have to abide by certain regulations, and she may have had no choice but to cease trading (possibly even for some reason that neither you, I or anyone else, knows - say some litigation over a personal accident for instance, liability for which the insurance didin't cover, so would be insolvent if had to pay compensation, etc etc).

All this is why we simply don't take any money - other than for gift vouchers - up front.

But I go back to the start.

Never pay up front. If you do, pay something with a CC.

And don't get mad. Get even.

And the best way of getting even is sometimes putting it all behind you and getting on with life - don't waste precious time and energy on the negatives.

ps. If you don't think I know what I am talking about:

TinyURL.com - shorten that long URL into a tiny URL

Our neighbour still lives over the fence, and caused £600,000 of damage (total so far). Reckon even after the insurers have finished, I will be 30k out of pocket. But we just got on with life.

Was this school a Limited Company?

If not, go after the proprietor(s) personally.

it wont cost me anything as I have legal insurance. I cannot walk away as this will allow the people concerned to just walk away and start again as highlighted before. Pursuing this at a personal level is the only way to make them think twice about mismanaging a company. Whether they pay financially or in the face of public scrutiny can only be a positive step

Small Claims
 

Cathy,

I'm sorry to hear of your situation, and I won't rehash the ground which has already been covered.

The limit for a small claims action in Scotland is £3000. If you have not already done so (and I suspect you will have) then I would recommend you speak to a solicitor regarding this matter as soon as possible. Most solicitors will normally have an initial meeting with you about any matter without charge, but not all so do check.

I hope that you get this resolved and that your daughter enjoys the remainder of her training and flying in the years beyond.

The going rate for a solicitor can be 195.00 an hour. In the current climate, they smell fees, and, not all, are in the game of fee building.

I would suggest that there is not a snowballs chance of getting your money back here.

In my previous post I suggested you remained cordial, and thought a plan. Sorry but I would not go near a solicitor.:\

There are all sorts of reasons companies go bust...quite often it is because someone else has gone bust first owing them lots of money.

The laws in the UK (and most other industrial countries) are designed as much as anything to promote and protect commerce...hence the concept of limited liability.

Anybody can always make a personal appeal to the ex-owners to pay up out of their remaining assets, sometimes, but very rarely, they may do so.

I'm afraid chasing them with a solicitor is likely to be a case of throwing good money after bad, even if its an insurance company's money (not sure I'm convinced that you can be covered for a process that is likely to be futile??????????)

When the last Scottish flying school went bust, up north, an overseas student lost 9 times the amount in question here. Which is why I took umbrage some time back when a poster commented that all flying schools are the same.

At the risk of getting another b***king...all flying schools are not the same and if you think they are go check companies house for the financial records of all the flying schools in Scotland.

Better still, pay £10 and you can get a complete financial breakdown of all the companies involved. At least one flying school in Scotland has a five star credit rating and is ratified to deliver public sector contracts. As ANY businessman/woman knows, to deliver a public sector contract you have to meet a host of financial stress tests.

PS

I have absolutely no vested interest in any flying school whatsoever. I just get the hump when the public are mislead, because the outcome always ends in tears.

Yes the going rate for a solicitor can be £195 per hour and frankly that's cheap for some!

Even in the relative backwater of Glasgow £350 per hour is not unheard of, but in the world of those of us who aren't trading commercial property and trying to pretend the world doesn't hate us there exists a breed of solicitor called the "rest of the world" who are willing to try to help, and I know a few.

But hey, nobody ever went to see a solictor because they are just too bloody happy, did they...?

Max- give me their details because the ones I come across attempt to charge me for looking at them:rolleyes::rolleyes:

I often thought that if I went around, charging by the half minute, every time I called someone, gave a bit of advice, spoke to them on passing, then delivered the invoice, then I would be flying the Trump plane.

Seriously though it is s total bummer when people pay for something, and the co goes bust leaving the distress and misery of a shambles. And out of pocket.

Problem is in todays climate it is happening daily, a lot of it not necessarily the companys fault, nor the directors, just circumstance. The directors then have to get on with it - remember they have lost their business and daily work also.

CFS actually apperaed to run a nice operation, and I happen to know some of the detail about where it may have started to go down hill. Their biggest issue was taking money up front, when they would have known that turbulance lay ahead. That is not on, unless in a position to refund if it went belly up. No, if in trouble, limit your liability.

Max, it might be easier to have some sympathy if this was the first time that "it had happened" to them.

They "seemed" to be running a good show since they had benefitted from doing it before, and may well try to do so again.

They will need to find another airfield for their next venture.

Yep I understand, and it would be untenable to operate, again, from CBN.

Perhaps attempting to run three flying schools, two helicopter training units, from one small GA airfield was a step too far. One, and maybe others, had to go.

If I had been running it, and I am not, I would have got an exclusivity right - one training school only. You might have stood half a chance.

The cake could not have been divided between all of them.

Greed
 

Our club was promised exclusivity at this field some years ago.

Within a week another started and shortly after a third.

Our club and one other failed but our only debt was to the airfield.

I am sorry to hear of your issues with it also, and yeah, well, we all know the scenarios and the real reasons why a lot of this has happened.

The innocents, of course, are always the real losers in these situations, and perhaps do not understand that there is always a story behind the smoke:\

Frankly we all knew, when, not if, with a number of these business's.

Does not make it any easier if you are on the losing side.

Maxred...spot on.

And yet if you check the array of websites you will see..

They are best/biggest/longest operating/whatever.

And then when a punter does tries to do a little bit of homework by posting on pprune, up comes a reply along the lines of..."oh yeh, trained here 5 years ago...they are great", or yeh..."they are all the same, don't pay upfront"

Here's a message for the punter...

Caveat Emptor

To find out the biggest, go to the flying school and count their aircraft and instructors (it'll be on the ops board).

To find out the best, go to the flying school and speak to the students.

To find out the most financially viable... find out the company registration details (it'll be on their stationery) and pay £10 for a full credit check.

If they appear in anyway uncomfortable/huffish/whatever at your enquries do not go there.

Use pprune and any other websites as a little wee bit of the jigsaw...not the whole story.

Ted the shred!
 

I'm sorry to hear that some have lost money as a result of the closure of CFS (or whatever it was/is called). Once again people are learning that aviation is a difficult business, and not one that it is easy to make money in.

Has anyone looked at the prop on the one remaining Katana left at cumbernauld? As a pilot i wouldnt go anywhere near that machine!

While i am sad that some people have lost considerable sums of cash, i think it should be noted that CBN will be all the better without Ted and his crappy business.

On a last note, i have no sympathy for Maria, who new full well what she was getting into. And if she didnt, then she should have! Or was it all just to keep her son in work, who instructed there?:ugh:

I have calmed down a bit since my previous rants. We are moving on to another school but not in Cumbernauld.Thinking about Prestwick after a recommendation. My daughter will not pay upfront . Has anyone any commen6s about facilities at Prestwick?,

Yes I'll comment about Prestwick but I'll declare an interest as an instructor at one of the clubs there.

Two clubs; Prestwick Flight Centre; and Prestwick Flying Club. The former is effectively a business with all the advantages that brings. For example it is staffed 9-5 seven days a week; it has a large and varied fleet; good examiner availability; it's also where the local R/T practical test is held. Slightly more expensive than the club for landings and membership.

The latter is a private members' club. No full-time staff therefore contact can be difficult although the guys do try very hard to follow-up email and web enquiries. Slightly cheaper than the Flight Centre for landings and membership but more expensive on the flying rate (especially if you chose the Chipmunk!) Instructors all part-time but usually something can be arranged as they run a prime/backup pairing arrangment - unlikely that you'll ever fly with more than two instructors.

What may be a consideration for you and your daughter is the environment - at the Club there is only one female member I can think of, but another young woman does fly from time-to-time. There are more women at the Flight Centre and the ladies on the desk are very motherly. I'm not saying that the chaps at the club are a bunch of grumpy mysoginist middle-aged pederasts, far from it, but I can understand that the flying environment can be intimidating enough. Depends on the character of your daughter.

Web sites for both, if you Google. Good luck

Prestwick would be a good choice, both clubs get an excellent rep.I have trained at the Flight Centre and found the whole experience pleasurable.

There is also Glasgow Flying Club, based at Glasgow, and Edinburgh Flying club,obviously based at Edinburgh.:rolleyes:

One comment, due to all the constraints placed on an individual whilst training, weather being the main one, it can be wise to choose a school where you are relatively close to the airfield. This can save wasted travel time and arriving at the field,to find the lesson cancelled because the weather has alterred/closed in.

Yes a call to the airfield to ask prior to leaving is prudent, however, sometimes this does not work. A small point, but from experience it can save a lot of wasted trips.

I'm glad that she's going to continue, but why not with either of the other schools at CBN? Just because CFS has gone bust doesn't mean the other schools are about the fall over.

I've been associated with Leading Edge for a long time (I was CFI there a few years ago) and it's in no danger of shutting up shop.
Border (downstairs at CBN) has some very good instructors too and I'd be surprised if there were any financial problems there.

I would like to recommend leading edge as a former ppl student they offered me excellent instructors and availability, well maintainained aircraft with reasonable rates! They also encouraged unlike other schools not to pay up front but after each lesson. Although I cannot comment on there finances all I can say is leading edge seems so be growing stronger and stronger with the aircraft online booking pages never been busier!

I have also done training at pretwick flight centre for my night rating and again experienced high quality training, well maintained aircraft and the advantages of flying from a controlled airfireld would be a plus point for a wannabe commercial pilot.

There is also the new branch of BAT at Cumbernauld which has undoubtably one of the nicest and my personal opinion one of the best cfi's you will find, so that could also be worth a look!

Having personally or known people who trained at these I'd say you can't go wrong

Leading edge
Prestwick Flight Centre
Prestwick flying Club

Hi , Many thanks for all comments.I will continue to pursue a refund by legal route as I can pay via legal insurance policy so wont cost me anything.
My daughter is very sociable and polite girl and gets on with everyone so she will fit in at any school she chooses and with any instructor .Im confident of that.
We currently live in Glasgow , Bearsden and we are inclined to try Prestwick despite being very close to Abbotsinch.
Mr Veitch did a very good job of rubbishing all the other schools at Cumbernauld and whilst it makes sense to ignore this I just cant face going anywhere near that airfield.
My apologies for sounding like a mad woman with a vendetta but I was very upset for her. Her dream is to be a pilot and had her dad not died I think it would have remained a dream as I certainly couldnt afford to pay her fees.I am very proud of her and what she hopes to achieve with her life . She has had a plan since she was 14. She is now approaching 16 and had not been swayed despite recent events.

I could tell you some tales about CFS that would turn your hair white. Let me put it this way, I've been an FI for a fairly long time and I feel very comfortable in recommending either of the two remaining schools at CBN.

The quality of the instructors is not up for question at either place. Mind you I certainly have no issue with any of the instructing that I've seen from either of the Prestwick schools for that matter.

There is only one place where I had any concerns about the teaching and the way things were done and that place has just gone bust. Whilst many of the FI's were good, the problem did not lie with them but with a certain person who ran the place, the very same one who spent his time rubbishing the other schools. He offered me a job once. I decided not to take it after meeting him and taking a look at the setup.

I would never recommend a place I didn't think was any good. I've seen enough rubbish schools to know what I'm looking at.

I spent 3 years as CFI at Leading Edge and I can assure you that the teaching is top notch there. Graham who's CFI at Border used to work with me at LE and he's an excellent instructor too, as is Paul. CBN is lucky to have 2 very good schools.

If you want to take Ted Veitch's word over mine, then go ahead, but I know where I'd send people!

I respect your comments. I just cant face Cumbernauld airfield and certainly would not value Mr V s opinion for obvious reasons.

Cathy that's a shame although understandable. The problem for you I'd suggest isn't the aerodrome it was the school. I don't know the BAT folks but Leading Edge is friendly and busy and the field really is your local one. You'll find the Kingston Bridge a real bind!

Fair enough. We came across the same sort of thing after Flight Academy went bust a few years ago, unfortunately this sort of thing isn't that uncommon and I've seen it too many times unfortunately.

Good luck with your daughter's training.

Yes Cumbernauld is closer.Im discussing it with her and have told her of all the encouragement on this site . Many thanks

Don't discount the Prestwick flying club.

There instructor base is quite unique in the UK.

You have university boffins through to very senior airline examinors. You might have issues with fitting in lessons etc but for building the foundations of a life time of flying your really going to struggle to beat it. The PPL's I have flown with from there have not been to far off Commercial standard and have a very solid grasp of the basics.

I wouldn't worry about being the only young girl about either, I wouldn't have thought being a dippy chick will do her any favours. But if she is keen, polite and not discounting fun I wouldn't have thought she would have problems.

Hi We have returned from holiday refreshed and Mairi is ready to fly.She has read all the posts and has had some fun doing so .Our next concern is retreiving her training records.

Ill let you all know how she gets on.

Many thanks again

Cathy xx

Inform the CAA Stirling Office of the new selected school and your daughter's training records should be transferred to the CFI there.

Hi , her record is in safe hands and we are selecting a new school for her.
Many thanks everyone for listening.

As already said, the training records "thing" shouldn't be an issue. The CFI of the new school should be able to just ask for them and get them.

If there are any issues, then the CFI of the new school will kick up merry hell. I've done it more times than I care to mention unfortunately and I've never had an issue to date.