Lost funds and Met
 

I read the posts on the plight of this young lady, who had her funds stolen (strong - perhaps but true) I had the same happen to me years ago when UK schools opened (and v. quickly closed) in France, where I lived and worked.

It is heartening that she is moving on and has selected a flying centre with more of an airport feel than a smaller aerodrome style set-up.

However, there was some suggestion of her life being made difficult due to changing weather and wasted travel.

I have a small tip on this aspect as I have the same dilemma due to flying from a sizeable airport whilst living an hour and a half's drive away.

I overcame this by using the UK Met Office: this has an excellent aviation website and for no fee - simply a registration - METAR's and TAF's can be checked as early as 7am up to within minutes of departure and interpreting them will do no harm either and could settle whether flying is possible or not very early on in the day!

Now I know if I shall be flying before the FBO staff arrive at their office.

Accuracy of decoding could then be confirmed, with a quick call to the CFI of the flight organisation to verify that understanding, before leaving.

Not much help with the money I am afraid but practically, using the Met Office site could avoid additional wasted cost.

LA

Lawyer duly instructed.

Thank you again for all advice and support. I dont really belong here but it was useful to vent my anger and frustration . xxxxxxxxxxxx :\

Be aware that you would likely be throwing good many after bad.

Cheers

Whirls

As before I have legal insurance which pays all costs.

Mmmmm..........

Initial symapthy has now evaporated. I'm out:confused:

One of two things could happen here. Either the insurance underwriter will advise that there's no legal case and refuse to support the case or, a solicitor will argue that there is, rack up some fees for themselves, then decide there's no case but will have profited from yours (and ultimately, everyone's) insurance premiums.

If a company goes bust, there is no legal case. The Insolvency Act governs the procedures and any decent solicitor will tell you that.

Cheers

Whirls

The company is not officially in administration. I pay premiums for a service so why not use it . It may or may not work . I can only try for the sake of my daughter. It is she who deserves the understanding / sympathy not me .She is blameless.

The qualifying age to commence PPL is 14.
The intention was to train gradually to achieve PPL at 17.
We paid twice for blocks of hours ......... no problems or any suspicion till now.We obviously had faith in the school.She has 25 hours ubder her belt.
The trustee was fine in releasing the money for 10 hours and were impressed with her plans for her future career.She wanted to spend all summer hols focusing on flying.
What on earth is odd about any of that ???.

SoCal
Can't comment on the legalities of whose money it actually was, or who's entitled to take any legal action, or even whether the whole thing seems odd:hmm:or not.

However, it's not that unusual to get kids with rich parents and/or trust funds starting to fly at 14, doing the dual parts of the PPL course between 14 and 16, then getting in the solo hours and skill test, ready for the CAA to issue their licence at 17. I must have seen this at least a dozen times and I'm at a small place in a rural county, you would think it may be more common in more affluent areas. I've known two students over the last couple of years whose trust funds would pay out for anything even vaguely aviation related. If Cathy's daughter has an educational trust fund, then I don't see why it wouldn't pay for a PPL if she said she was going for the modular route to a CPL.

mrmum.

Thank you so much.

Wish her/ us better luck everyone.

I have been reading this thread with interest and Cathy I find your daughters resolve to continue, after the blow she has suffered, commendable! I almost gave up 7 years ago after talking to a certain Mr. Veitch! I got a lecture (10 minute monologue) on what I couldn't do in aviation almost to the point of doubting whether I really wanted to fly!!! I then contacted Tayside Aviation who resided at Scone at the time and chose to learn with them! I wish her good luck and many happy hours flying.
John.

Cathy,
I was a member of C.F.C. but did not lose any money although I lost money when Flight Academy went bust so you have my sympathy and good luck with the legal fight (but don't get your hopes up). I have joined Leading Edge and although I have my licence (just) I find a big difference in the types of plane i.e. Cessna opposed to a Katana but your daughter will get used to them (she will have to as no other schools use Katana's).
What really annoys me is the hypocracy at C.F.S. as they used to be very virulent in their attacks on F.A.S. and the way they left a lot of people out of pocket and now they have done the same. Anyway good luck to your daughter and as I live roughly in the same area as yourself think about the travelling when picking a new school.
p.s. Does anyone know how Sam is getting on? as he is another one who has lost out in all of this.

Hi . We have made no firm decision about which school to choose yet as my daughter is down in her confidence at the moment. We plan to visit Cumbernauld together and to have a look at prestwick also.
I did make enquiries about Sam when I was at Cumbenaukd recently but no news to offer. I know Sebastian is working there doing sight seeing tours etc.The majority of people on this forum have been so great many thanks again .

Hi Cathy123

I have some poor memories of TV also, if your daughter would like a flight out of Perth in a tail dragger to keep her interest going please send a pm. I enjoy sharing my passion for flight so no payment required.

Kind regards
T18

its is only money!
 

I have read all of the threads going back to the start re CFS/C.

My son wanted to be a pilot from the age of 5, completed his enrolment with the RAF March 06 to become a pilot, passed away suddenly May 06 4 weeks before his 16th birthday.

I joined CFS to honour his memory & completed my PPL last year.

I got to know all of the staff @ CFS, and for one, with the exception of the previously mentioned flight controller, would be more than happy to meet up with Seb & Sam again, they were great fun to be with and very professional.

I aslo flew with Leading Edge, again, really decent people & good instructors (not sure if Paul is still there)

it is a shame that people have been financially inconvenienced by this. However, lets not take our eyes off what is really important, life & health, no amount of money in this world can you buy you health.

Best wishes & hope the young lady achieves her goal

My sincere sympathies for your loss.I have also lost a child myself . Yes it is only money and life and health IS more important. Mairi is having a trial lesson at Prestwick on Sunday. Many thanks for your kind words

This makes for an interesting reading (despite the big pinch of salt needed for this kind of press):

Susan Boyle's friend goes through cash hell after bitter split from air school lover - The Daily Record

The users' comments, from the horse's mouth, are worth reading too, with reference to posters on this thread as well.

Pile on the pain
 

Was that really necessary AP??

It was the usual journalistic bollox, clearly tainted from 'one side of the story', on a weekend where there was evidently not much news.

I wonder if poor Cathy had something to do with it:uhoh::\

Yes

Not because of the colourfull details of their "relationship", but because these are people in the aviation business who have gone bust owing people money. They are not victims...the customers and suppliers who have lost money are the victims.

You go into business, you play by the rules. One of the rules is you can walk away from a bust business without going bust yourself. Another is the business community is going to make sure your reputation gets known.

And rightly so.

PS

No great fan of the newspapers myself...but most of this appears to be straight from the horses mouth rather than hearsay and invention

PPS

Talking of b*****s, is she making it up as she goes along??!! If this is true and I was owed money I'd be whacking a small claims in this PM.

Clearly the Scots are having way too much fun.

Completely inappropriate to be involved in GA and having that much fun.

All this stuff about lovers and ex-lovers and spending cash on women... I think I will move to Benbecula. Maybe not... no avgas there, damn.

IO - but not on a Sunday remember. Old Fat One - there is a lot more to this story than meets the eye - as always.

Including how the saintly one got involved in the first place, anyway, none of my business, not involved, and I am away to get three internet birds for myself - if he can do it, anyone can:mad:

Cathy had nothing to do with it other than giving details of Mairi s misfortune. Aparently there are nine other pupils owed money.The reporter got all of the information about the relationship and details of Ms Boyle and the Church from Mrs Dorrian and Mr Veitch . I knew nothing of this until the reporter told me himself . What has been printed HAS come from the horses mouths only.

Well, they are evidently all dafter than they look:bored:

I can only assume that whilst trying to defend their failures in business and blaming each other they forgot they were spouting to reporters.Shocking it was front page news.

What amazes me are all the comments after the story, almost entirely from involved people, not least the owner.

I am not at all legally trained, but surely making your opinions public like that and making claims about the other parties creates a rather rocky basis for any future legal recourse, and even more so opens the way for libel (or is it slander) cases.

I was always under the impression that in such circumstances, you kept quiet and let your lawyer do all the talking. Certainly makes it all a bit hard to ever take to court and have an "unbiased" jury.

Anyone with lawyerly knowledge out there? What is the story about such things?

its scots law as well so might be a wee bit different.

There is no way Glasgie women are going to keep there mouths shut if they don't like each other. It just doesn't happen.

This is contract law and does not require the opinions of a jury.The contract was to teach , a fee was paid. The contract was dishonoured.

Mairi has a new school and feels comfortable with her instructor. She and I are movinjg forward and we just have to wait and see if she gets any of her funds returned. This is all we can do .

You contract is witha LTD compnay not the share holders.

This has happened so many times and alot of punters really do believe that they will get there money back.

But the tax man gets his first.

Then the reciever gets there's

Then the banks get there's

And then the employees get there's.


Then the punters get whats left if anything.

You will be lucky to get 2p in the pound of whats owed to you if previous schools going tits up are anything to go by.

So do i just sit back and do nothing ?. Im not that kind of person . They are neither in receivership nor under administration.The company still has assest . I may get nothing but Im sure as hell going to try. I am fully aware what a Ltd company means . I may be at the end of the list but at least Im on the list .

That'll clear out the coffers if there is anything left, with TV living rent free and the company not paying national insurance on it.

IF any company liquidators believe that the company directors have acted fraudulently, as opposed to megligently, they can apply to the courts to go after the directors personally. However, the shareholders are not involved unless they happen to be the same people.

Cheers

Whirls

This is a"walk away from" mess. Since it was a LTd company the directors have the protection of limited liability and are only liable for the share capital that they invested in the company. To pursue them as private individuals will simply not achieve anything. To openly bad mouth them no matter how much they deserve it could lead to an accusation of harrassment!!

As regards adminstration/liquidation forget it - it simply will not happen. An insolvency practictioner will be looking for a minimum of £10,000 even to look at the company. The company will probably be left in limbo and get dissolved by companys house in due course. Any director could of course pay £10 to companys house and ask for the dissolution of the company. The notice of such would be printed in (I Think) the Edinburgh Evening news!!. Any creditor can object to this but I would suspect that if HMRC are owed monies then they would hold up the dissolution for at least 18 months.

If as reported the company owned/rented 2 aircraft then I am suprised that the Airport owner has not used the Air Navigation act to impound the aircraft awaiting payment of his debts. This happened with Comed at Blackpool some years back. It took a long time for private owners who had allowed Comed to hire their aircraft out a long time to recover their property. Anyone who may have done this through the CFS could be in for a nasty shock as they could equally be liable for the debts. I do not know how the Comed situation panned out eventually.

If anyone is thinking of making a soap out of this then I suggest that they include the going ons of Merlin ( bust Cumbernauld) and the transfer of a "club from Edinburgh" when they re located to CBN.

Must be the micro climate around that area

As before we are fully aware of the limited liability status of the director.
The planes are elsewhere and not at Cumbernauld so Im led to believe.
The planes are unemcumbered .....ie no loans and are owned outright by the company.(from the horses mouth )

We plod on until told it is a waste of time by the people in the know , the solicitors.(paid for by insurance ).

Aye but they have droppped out of a known maintence enviroment over night they have halved in value which will have been way over estimated anyway. So proberly worth now a quarter of what they have been saying. Its very rare for aircraft assets to be linked in with the school so it might not be as simple as you think.

Well as long as your not shelling out any more of your own cash carry on but please don't hang any hopes on getting an outcome that your going to be happy with. If you do get what your hoping for you will be in a minority of 1 in scotland for students recovering thier money with a school going bust.

I remember how long an ex-Flight Academy Scotland Katana sat at Perth.

And how little it was for sale for a few years later, even with a new engine!

The two Katanas at TV's were both registered to MD, not CFC. So I presume she "leased" them to her school. She should have. So no asset there.

ps. "My" aircraft are owned by a partnership which owns the airfield, for tax reasons - something to do with capital allowances - and not owned by the flying school which uses and maintains them, which is also a limited company. So there is nothing unusual in this sort of arrangement.

Most flying schools have very few assets, and seek the protection of limited liability in case all goes wrong.

I am realistic and dont have high expectations as one Katana visibly in Prestwick in a sorry state .Hey ho ... can only try . Thats what solicitors are for .

Hello from Aus
 

Hi Cathy

I'm from Kirkintilloch, but now living in Melbourne - I log onto PPrune periodically and have a look at what's going on with General Aviation back home and picked up on your posts about Cumbernauld - I'm gutted to read it all.

I did a PPL at Cumbernauld Flying School - I finished it back in 2003. These were the days when the place was run by Ted and his wife Christine. I have to admit, I also paid up front, really cause that included all of the books, exams etc too.

Long story, but I had a relatively good experience during my PPL - and I stuck with the school for about a year or so after my PPL to hire the planes. For various reasons, I then moved down to Prestwick and joined Prestwick Flying Club - my flying experience just quite litterally took off from then - I LOVED it!!

The instructors are real pilots that do instructing for fun. My skills got better and my overall enjoyment got better - much more of a social side to it.

I'm not sure where you are based - Prestwick was obviously a bit more of a joint that Cumbernauld - but well WELL worth it.

I'll also tell you one wee story - once at Prestwick I soon bought a share in an aircraft that was kept down there. One sunny afternoon, I decided to take it for a flight up to Inverness. I called my girlfriend to see if she fancied coming along, which she did - and arranged to pick her up at Cumbernauld. I thought great - I'll pop in, get some lunch and say hello to Ted. When I got there, I found out that Ted had actually thrown her out of the cafe, telling her she couldn't wait in there for me - this was dispite me having paid him probably about 10,000GBP over the years. I couldn't believe it - but it sums it all up for me!

It will all work out - please let me know if you need any introductions at Prestwick. Please keep her at it!!

Good luck!

Edit - meant to send this as a PM - oh well!

Hi Glasgowflyer

Prestwick was recommended to her by a Thomsons captain during our recent holiday in Egypt.She was lucky to chat to him on the flight deck. Having read many positive things on this forum including yours Mairi has chosen Prestwick as her new school.Its only 35 min drive from home here in Bearsden.
She had her first flight in a cessna 150 last weekend and enjoyed it . Her instructor Willie (forget his surname ) was lovely and made her feel very much at ease.I have a feeling he will take her under his wing.
I can see her enthusiasm returning especially since she got her exam results which were brilliant despite the last year being very sad and difficult for her and her sister.
It really is great to hear from you guys. I appreciate it and tell Mairi all about it . She is keen to chat to experienced pilotsabout their experiences in training via email if anyone is interested .

You must distinguish between Prestwick Flying Club and Prestwick Flight Centre. If the Thomson's captain is the one I'm thinking of, he'll have mentioned the Club as he's a member there. You've gone to the Flight Centre (the Club don't have 150s). Doesn't matter, your daughter will be well-cared for.

I'm surprised anyone let alone a little schoolgirl can fit into a 150 with Willie (no offence Willie):E

shes not so little at 5 feet 10 ;).