England sucks
 

Having recently completed my PPL in Florida I am slowly but surely getting used to the English way of doing things. Whilst I agree that flying the UK has it's plus points and that the restricted and congested airspace does help to sharpen the flying skills, I have to say that I think the many bad points outweigh the good stuff.

My local airfield is Shoreham, and I have had a number of flights there now with instructors to help build my confidence of flying in the UK, and during these flights I have had a few touch & go's and have had to stomach the £8.72 each time I put my wheels on the tarmac, or indeed grass.
In the US I could do as many tough & go's as I liked and didn't have pay any extra costs for this. In a a 2 hour lesson I could nail 15 landings easily and this is partcularly good at perfecting the all imporatnt landing phase of the flight. Also, if my approach looked unstable or I wanted to practice very important go arounds I could do this too and wouldn't have to worry about extra costs.

Whilst thinking about this, I decided tha instead of doing touch and go's I would merely do circuit practive at Shoreham and instead substitute the touch and go for go arounds each time and avoid the extra cost. However, having looked at the Shoreham airport website I've realised that even a go around is subject to the £8.72 charge. Staggering!!

I question how many unstable approahces and consequently how mnay bad and potentially dangerous landings occur in the UK becuase of not wanting to pay the 'approach charge'. I argue that this does not allow a pilot to fly safely and relaxed, and I was taught that if any part of the approach is not right you should instigate a go around. I believe this is good and safe airmanship and that people should not be forced into making landings.
It also means that during the training phase you are restricted on your approach and landing practice because of the additional costs associated with this. Take my 2 hour, 15 landing scenario: 15 x 8.72 = £130.8 just for landing. Lot's of dosh!!

I'm sure some of you will find someway to criticise this thread, but in summary I think this SUCKS giant ASS. Personally I do not feel that UK aviation is as good as that in the US. Bring on the flames.... :O

You are absolutely correct, compared to most of the intelligent world the UK is a rip off. We need a revolution.

Get a share in an LAA machine on a small grass strip and watch your costs halve at least.

Much more fun as well

'wot Zula Alpha sed.


Fly or drive up to Popham one day, buy lunch, look at what's going on, look at what people are paying, look at the notice board.

You may wonder if you are in the same country as Shoreham - rather than just the adjacent county.

I quite like Shoreham, but even by UK standards it is atypically complex and expensive - Popham is not too far from you, and at the other end of the scale.

G

The LAA route is certainly one way, but there are other ways, one of which is not to use larger airfields for training. I remember having to do my night circuits at a regional airport and the cost of landings dwarfed the cost of the aircraft hire (by the way, you can't do that in an LAA machine!)

Later the club negotiated a better deal elsewhere for that sort of training. My own recommendation is to find a club at a smaller airfield without 'International Spaceport' pretensions, where they take a more realistic view of customer service

ct8282

I read your post as far as and smiled :)

You have picked an airfield many of us choose to avoid as much as possible. To me, any essentially GA airfield that is pretentious enough to have an ATIS is worth keeping clear of.

I only visit Shoeham when I have to, and the most pleasure I got was managing to park (at the far end), visit who we had to, never wore a yellow jacket and they didn't notice :ok:

As ZA says, just go and find a club / strip where you are not treated as a cash machine. Plenty with minimal, even no, ATC...

Location is clearly an issue - and I am not saying they are perfect examples (but surely better than Shoreham) - but Redhill, Goodwood spring to mind if you need licensed airfields / clubs / schools / aircraft for hire. As soon as you can move from these to strips / unlicensed / LAA types fun will increase in proportion to costs going down :ok:

Not while it's knocking Shoreham I won't :D

NoD

PS To stop offending, can you alter the thread title e.g. change 'England' to the name of an airfield near Worthing

And Deanland, AKA Ripe does training.

If it's just flying you want microlights and LAA Group 'A' need shorter strips generally and the Southern Flyers or Hampshire Microlight Flying Club may be handy for your needs. They'd know what else there is, many not on the charts or in the Guides. Wander around Goodwood might be some useful chat there.

mike hallam

You are paying for the expensive facilities. If these are not required, move to a nice local airfield - or go and do your low approaches into a disused strip / another airfield.
Some will charge you £10 for unlimited gouch and go's.
I wouldn't pay those fees, but they are needed to run such a place!

Probably none. £8.72 isn't all that significant compared to the cost of air time in the subsequent circuit.

Aside from small grass strips, there are some airfields with a yearly membership that covers all landing and circuit fees. It's something I'm always mindfull of when I consider flying somewhere new now, having paid £22 to land C152s at Biggin in the past!

Personally I think flying in the US has spoilt you! So suck it up princess! :)

This IS what we need! :D

You'll probably find that the go-around charge isn't there for go-arounds that are needed for safety reasons, but just there for people doing what you proposed to do. ie. take up room in the circuit, but avoid landing to avoid any charge.

The USA is different. They fund their airports differently. It's a simply fact that airports need to be paid for somehow.

In the USA they are paid for via taxation, in the UK, the user pays.

ct8282

Many ways of getting the best out of UK flying and avoiding the pain you have re landing fees etc but before I jump in can I ask a simple question? Why did you learn to fly? The answer to this will greatly colour any advice.

Rod1

Goodwood certainly, but unless it's changed a lot since I last went there I'd not regard Redhill as much of an improvement over Shoreham.

I still prefer Popham!

G

Flickers and sparks
 

No flames today, just flickers and sparks....

I cannot agree that a single word, all encompassing slash at a whole nation is an appropriate reaction to the cost of landing fees.

That said, the cost you describe does sound out of proportion. I had occasion recently to fly from Shoreham, what a delightful airport. nicely maintained, and conveniently situated.

Ahh, well maintained... That costs someone money, I suppose the users would want to pay their fair share of that, to have the facility available.

Conveniently situated... If someone [everyone] does not contribute back that value of the land, it will get swallowed up, like so many airports. I imagine that flying must be one of the most extreme cost of land and facilities vs return activies going. The third busiest airport in Canada will be closed within five years for other land use, and we have space in excess around here!

In 24 years of owning my plane, I have never paid landing fees or hangerage at my home airport. But buying the land, building the hanger, and ongoing maintenance do have their costs. I was thinking yesterday into my second hour of cutting the runway, that my tractor has nearly as many hours on it cutting and snow blowing the runway, as I have put on my plane in that period....

Why not stop by the Shoreham aiport manager's office, and ask if they'll waive some landing fees for you if you spend a day cutting grass for them?

But I agree that 130 GBP for two hours of landings does sound excessive, and a disincentive to currency....

You will find that a lot of the GA airfields in the US are publicly owned and funded by the taxpayer, thus are freely available for use by any old Joe for nothing.

Such a system does not exist in the UK, since GA is not as widely used in the UK on a day to day basis and there would be an uproar if our taxes were used to fund something seen as a luxury available to only a select few.

As such all our airfield are privately owned and need to charge premium prices to stay open!

Thanks peeps. Nice to see the good side of a forum showing through. Your replies have indeed prompted me to start looking elsewhere at smaller airfields and I will keep you posted with my progress.

Think I'll start with Popham...

Yes, we know all that. That is why we need a revolution.
This country is organised all wrong.
Pleasure & fun are frowned upon as unneccessary flippancies.
What we should be doing is "getting on yer bike" & work like stick till you drop, don't use the "National" health service, & get some unfortunate member of family to dig a hole for you. At the same time pay whatever taxes the Government need to fund their bird tables, travel expenses, girl friends flat etc. And god forbid that we should protest!!:ugh:

Shoreham? I thought it was Brighton International! You would think all the rent from those shiny buildings would contribute to the running - not...

HTC

Redhill prices
 

Give Bembridge a try, they used to offer an hour of circuits for £20. Now they are open again they may still have that available.

Well go and live in the USA then. A fabulously wealthy country where they let poor people die for lack of health care and elect religious maniacs as president. Actually, thinking about Mr Blair I'm on a sticky wicket with that one :-)

No circuit training at Deanland. The microlight school based there does circuit training at Headcorn, where they charge £25 for enough to tire you out.

I thought Redhill was a little grass strip. How wrong was I! It even has a live arrivals/ departure board!

Aerodrome Information - Redhill Aerodrome

Apparently G-BNSR is 20 minutes late arriving back from Calais. Since this information is made publicly available on the internet, shall we speculate wildly as to what may have caused the delay?

I had an interesting chat to one manager at an airfield I used to visit frequently but no longer do. I quickly realised that high viz aprons are not for safety at all but rather so management can spy on people walking around the airfield. I said so what. His response was that he doesn't want just anyone strolling around and looking into someone else's aeroplane. He wants to easily see who is on his airfield when he looks out of his office window. As far as security is concerned, he couldn't care less if it keeps people away. He has a waiting list for hangarage and outdoor tie-downs. He's unconcerned that people don't visit the airfield any longer. If they do they can stand behind the high fencing an observe what is going on.

That's the sort of attitude that will kill it for aviators and enthusiasts. The airfield is not in the UK by the way.

I fly from a small airfield and don't pay a penny to land each time, though we can't do circuits due to planning restrictions (a 10 min depart and rejoin is ok though). But I have a mate who is in a military Flying Club and we had our aeroplane approved by the MOD. So if we want to do circuits, we head off to a mil base at the weekends (when the military is off work :) ) and do as many as we want for nothing. Thanks Gijoe ;)

I have never paid for a touch-and-go, circuit or landing ever at my home airfield. Combined with the refreshing feeling of not having to deal with an unnecessaryATC that can't keep the airfield open due to staffing issues and no yellow jackets, it might be a contributing factor to why my home airifeld is one of the largest and most vibrant airfields in the south east (probably with a lot more movements than Shoreham).

So I have to agree with others... This is not a UK problem, it's a Shoreham (Brighton City) Airport problem :ok:

And an other thing.

I guess your rental plane could be quite old, a bit worn around the edges, has iffy radios and clockwork dials.

If you do pop in to Popham, see if you can look in a few homebuilts. I looked at a Vans and a Sportcruiser recently to see complete glass cockpits, leather trimmed seats and spotless too.

Sir George Cayley

Sounds great. Where is your airfield and how do I get involved?

It's easy to get involved, since it's open for everyone

West London Aero Club - Home

Pays yer Money and takes yer chances
 

The GA industry in the UK is not ripping anyone off, it is just charging the rate it needs to cover the costs.

The biggest costs to GA is tax if one sort or another, the reason that we have higher taxes than the USA is that we have a workable social system that is by and large free. If I have an accident or ill health then you treated for free, the Daily Mail will tell you that the NHS is rubbish but following the very rapid treatment that my wife got when it was discovered she had cancer I have a much higher (and more balanced) opinion on the NHS than the Daily Mail.

If I was in the USA the medical insurance I could buy would only cover so much, the guy who ran my FE course in the USA was still working at 67 and had to sell his pension fund & house to pay for his wifes cancer treatment, he was left after a full career in the airlines with NO money for his old age and no help from the state likely.

On the whole I would rather pay the taxes in Europe and know that I will not end up in a small appartment in the bad end of town if one of my loved ones gets sick.

That having been said you could have not picked a more expensive place Shoreham !

there would be an uproar if our taxes were used to fund something seen as a luxury available to only a select few.


I would respectfully suggest that Opera, the Olympics "the Arts" are just at the tip of the iceberg in the" Elitist Subsidy" stakes.

Just to stir the pot a bit more,- A local village was denied a new rail-halt as the cost of meeting the disabled/wheelchair access legislated requirements made it financially unviable.

Unfortunately , G.A. is seen as an elitist hobby, because it is!

Like yachting, there are fairly modest ways of indulging, but if you go mainstream,the costs escalate.

" If it Flies, floats or fxxs,-rent it " Words of a Sage, indeed.

It can be, it doesn't have to be.

You can rent a spamcan at ~£140/hr (a website at Shoreham shows £107/hr + club membership + landings)

You can buy a £1500 share in a cheap basic aeroplane and fly it for £50/hr - opportunities to do this are easily found at many places.

Neither is a hobby for the destitute, but the second is affordable to most people if they want to fly enough.

But not from a huge and expensive piece of real-estate like Shoreham.


Popham membership is £125/year covering all your landings. A quick google tells me at Popham I could get a C150 share for £2k, then £55/month and £35/hr - so at a sensible minimum of 30 hrs per year, renting at Shoreham would be £4,200, and a share would be ~£3,830 for your first year, and £1,830 for the second and subsequent years (with every chance of getting your £2k back one day).


There are many ways to rework these figures - but if money is an issue, and you want to fly a lot - don't fly from the big high profile airport, and look seriously at a share in something on a permit or private CofA. The big airport and Public CofA do not substantially enhance your flying experience.

It is fair however, why should our hobby be subsidised by the public? But equally, why do we need to fly from a massive lump of tarmac like Shoreham or Cranfield, when much smaller, cheaper, but entirely adequate places are available.

G

Shoreham is an excellent airport.

It's not "dirt cheap" to land there but then going anywhere in a light aircraft is not cheap, and usually the landing fee is barely significant relative to the fuel burnt on any "useful" trip (i.e. one which one could not do in a car in less time).

If one spend a long while banging circuits, that is expensive, but why do that? Why not fly to France, or even further, and do something different?

The UK is not like the USA and it never will be, because here nearly everything is privatised, whereas the US aviation infrastructure is run on common taxes.

Because they are not available, in much of the UK.

"Entirely adequate" for a Maule, maybe.

Most light aeroplanes can cope, most of the time, with a 800m runway, with a bit of clearway at each end, and a small clubhouse. The area around that runway can be productive farmland - it doesn't need to be "sterile" and regularly mowed grass, crosswind runways are seldom used (but certainly nice to have, but that runway can also run as a strip through farmland).

Lights and an NDB off the end of the runway are certainly nice to have, as are hangars but could be done fairly cheaply. Or (Goodwood, Thruxton...) you can shove the runway in the middle of a racetrack. We all drive to the airfield anyhow, so it doesn't need to be on expensive real estate close to a town. A/G is good enough for most purposes, and GPS approaches if we get there in the UK would negate any other instrument approaches for other than training purposes.

I like Shoreham, don't get me wrong - I have shares at Cranfield and Booker, and in particular like the option of an instrument approach at EGTC, or lights at both - but most GA flying, most of the time, can equally be done for much less money from a Popham or a Sandown.

G

We have an 800 metre tarmac runway, lights which are never used, clear approaches so home made GPS let downs pretty safe, hangarage, club house without catering, avgas, £110 a year membership and reciprocal landings with 25 or so other airfields.
You have to live in the right part of the country. I think we are pretty lucky.

Of course, this situation is severely location dependent.

As oldpilot55 says above.

I pay a few k a year for hangarage. I know a pilot "up norff" who pays about 1/10 of that, in an area which is a total dump, where nobody wants to live, where the weather is crap (even by UK standards), etc.

There is a whole pile of cheap places in East Anglia, but I would not want to live there if you paid me for it, and seemingly neither would most of the UK otherwise they would all be there now (nice beaches, etc).

In the South East, it's lovely to live here, the wx is good, but property is expensive and so is hangarage and most other stuff. Even pub food is expensive. And getting planning is often very hard or impossible.

Much of Kent is inaccessible, due to crap roads, otherwise everybody would be flying out of Lydd. Headcorn is similar and is grass (see below), Goodwood is grass, Sandown is grass (and is on the IOW so basically no good for anything except a burger run, or if you live on the IOW, because transport to/from the IOW makes Sandown meaningless for going somewhere), Redhill is grass. Hangarage in these places is mostly nonexistent. Dunsfold looks interesting but is on a crap road (A281) and has some other issues. I think that kind of covers the area...

There is a good bunch of strips there but they are very tight (Deanland e.g.) as to who gets the Royal Pleasure to visit them :) and most are inaccessible for an aircraft with any significant mission capability (I mean beyond a burger run).

Shoreham is a unique facility which nobody should do anything less than support. Yeah, there are difficult issues concerning the fraught politics of its ownership which I won't go into here (but know a great deal about).

And I am not even talking about IAPs, which, frankly, is moot for just about any UK coastal airport unless it has an ILS (because you can descend well enough over the sea, etc...). I would certainly not regard an NDB as useful - it is useful purely to support commercial flight training, and certain passenger carrying ops where one needs the facade of an "instrument approach approved by the CAA". One just uses a GPS in the OBS mode.

The problem with "grass" is that the risk of potholes goes way up, and a prop strike is about £20000. Prop strikes are a BIG thing in GA, which tends to get swept under the carpet, except by the insurance companies and the luckless owners. The prop shops love it of course.

Of course a hard runway with grass taxiways, and crap transitions between the two, is just as bad. One rarely gets a prop strike on the runway (short of a seriously wheelbarrowed landing). So most owners of "higher quality/performance" hardware want a proper runway etc. And they want hangarage otherwise the plane just rots. Also, constant operation from grass does translate to a more mucky plane, more crap everywhere, and bigger maintenance bills. And most pistons twins or turboprops cannot be sensibly operated from grass (high tyre loading) unless covertly reinforced and that costs about £50k-100k for a runway and a bit of taxiway.

I don't want to start another "LAA" thread but one needs to be careful to not try to bring down GA to its lowest common denominator. The community comprises of a broad spectrum of stuff and while a great deal of it could exist purely out of farm strips, on Tesco petrol, this is far from a solution for everybody.

Airports like Shoreham are vital and should be supported.

Airports like Shoreham or Cranfield should be supported, but not necessarily by somebody like the OP with limited money trying to fly on a budget. And flying regularly from Cranfield I don't pay anything like they're charging down at Shoreham - it is very expensive real-estate.

People with, as you say, turboprops and piston twins probably do prefer a long hard runway. But equally, if you can afford to fly one of those, you can equally afford the fees at Shoreham, and most of us don't fly aeroplanes like that.

Incidentally, in half a dozen years I flew out of Popham I remember two propstrikes - a Yak taxiied into a signpost, and a Renegade over-braked and tipped on its nose. I think it's an overrated concern.

Grass runways can be very variable, particularly in the UK - Popham quite rightly bans circuits in the winter - on the other hand I still fly regularly from a much less intensively used grass strip close to Popham, where the only problems we ever have are when somebody forgot to mow it. But twins to regularly operate from good grass runways - White Waltham and Old Sarum come to mind.

GPS .v. NDB approaches. Interesting. A debate for another thread I suspect. NDBs are horrible, but they are the most common approaches published at UK airports - we should have GNSS approaches published and useable, and ideally certifiable portable GPS units for approaches. Unofficially of-course, we can all do that anyhow, but it becomes legally iffy.

G

Yes, fair enough, but if you are money-limited then you are better off flying somewhere "nice" with a cost-sharing passenger, than bashing circuits at £10-20 at your local airfield.

I think it all comes down to what you want from flying. IO540 (seems to be) an intensive business flyer with a very nice GA a/c and there is a place for that. On the other hand there are people like me who just like flying and are happy in a spam can/glider and love chewing the fat with other flyers.

I can see why 540 wants a hangar and good runways/facilities, but of course I don't need those and I suspect most people here don't. Let's face it, other than the few business users/pro pilots here, it's a lot more sensible and cost effective to drive wherever you are going.

We fly because we love flying and we put up with the crap in this country because we need to fly.

I might add that I fly from an airfield with ILS and ATC and don't pay anything for circuits and landings so perhaps I'm a little spoiled.

I do very little business flying, but try to do a certain % of trips to more interesting places, in between local flights for currency / sightseeing with friends.

And yes I put up with the crap too - because I enjoy flying.

It isn't just UK crap BTW; the crap is now all over Europe, in varying degrees.

Business flying is not that easy in the UK because the distances are not that great and can be mostly driven/etc in a similar time. Also the wx risk precludes formal customer visits, unless you have something very capable, are flying between airports which are ILS-equipped and have usable opening hours.

Ah apologies then, I had the notion, wrongly obviously that you used the 20 for business trips. In that case, I envy your TB20 but I bet you've never spun an ASW19........:)