It was a tongue in cheek comment but just in case you thought I was serious I've never flown a TB20 down an ILS. There are different types of flying. Flogging a 747 across the Atlantic requires a different discipline to poling a glider around on a good day, which requires a different discipline to putting a 172 down on 400 metres of grass. All I'm sure are equally as satisfactory from a pilot's point of view.

I don't regard flying an ILS as some kind of great objective, although I can do it OK.

For me, flying has always been about (a) being "up there" and (b) seeing Europe from the air and going to nice places.

Banging circuits was never my idea of fun and actually I don't think it is a good use of time or money in training because the workload is high and not representative of most real situations.

Yes, the OP could have worked out the cost up front as all those costs are openly known, but one could say that about all of the people who give up flying because they cannot afford to do it.

I just think he ought to expand his horizons a bit and not burn money on circuits. A US-trained PPL can certainly fly but they tend to get baffled by European ground procedures, and the IFR ones are universally baffled by the IFPS "Jeppesen business protection" system :)

"Some of the most eminent glider pilots are also airline pilots for their job. Two extremes of a fascinating subject. I like it all. "


Me too. When I was in the RAF I was on Phantoms and George Lee who was one of our jocks was world gliding champ I believe at the time. We have a whole raft of pilots at my club from warbird flyers, airline pilots to guys like me who just like the £100 burger run. (Did one today actually but it was steak and chips!)

The whole issue of aviation from how they are designed, put together and built to flying them is totally engrossing to me whether they are a Taylor Titch or a 380. I think that flying is either in your blood or it isn't but I've learned not to bore non flyers to sleep by rattling on about the difference between the Merlin and Hercules engined Lancaster........:)

Sadly, a level of enthusiasm that seems to be diminishing in the civil-professional pilot community.

G

On the other hand, a few circuits once in a while - particularly if getting used to a new aeroplane or airfield, is not a bad practice. I quite often finish off a good days flying with a couple.

G

Lol, I most definitely did not do 15 circuits at Shoreham. Read my thread again matey, I'm sure it states that I was able to bang out 15 circuits in Florida during my PPL training without the worry of mounting costs.

I suppose in summary I was spoilt with my 8500ft (10R) runway and no extra charges at Fort Pierce St Lucie International.... :O

I do have to say though that another frustration is the lack of night flying potential in the UK. In the US we could hop in the plane and fly the night skies of Florida, pretty much land where we liked (and had control over large airport lights with our PTT button), and really enjoy it. One night I bashed out 8 circuits at night, all very very good practise indeed and really helps to build up confidence and get those landings spot on.

For anyone who hasn't done it, it really is worth a 2 week holiday to Florida just to experience the freedom of US aviation.

http://www.fishe.co.uk Now that's a damn good deal!!

Indeed; limited airport operating hours is a major issue which cripples the utility value of GA in Europe, and for no good safety reason. It is just anally retarded regulation.

Even pilot controlled lights are "banned" by the CAA, though I gather that the bloke who kept that policy going (on the basis of some word play with what an aeronautical radio frequency may be used for) is no longer around, so maybe a strong push for PCL might yield a result. A number of small private airfields have PCL, discreetly, and I would certainly do that if I had one. I'd use SMS to operate the lights.

:):):) + 10 characters

This is certainly true, but it's not just at night. There seem to be many UK airfields that close at silly times like Fairoaks closing at 6pm. It isn't gonna get dark for another few hours in summer!

Don't fret though because we live in the UK and we can land outside of the published operating hours (with prior permission) if we pay an extra £100 or so for the priviledge!

What is the reason? Is it just to pay someone to switch the lights on and off again, or does there have to be a fireman etc?

IO540:

"Most piston twins or turboprops cannot be sensibly operated from grass...."

Actually Peter, I saw a Pilatus PC-12 at Compton Abbas last Friday. As you might know, it is not the smoothest strip in the world and I was surprised to see one there. However, it took off quite happily in half the strip.

cjboy:

Lancaster IIs were indeed equipped with Bristol Hercules engines. I believe I read somewhere that the Merlin Lancaster Is and IIIs had a better performance.

thing:

I knew George Lee well. I think one of my best weeks was flying several types of glider, an RF3, Cessna 206, BN Islander and a Short Belfast all in one week.

Happy Daze

The answer to most UK aviation regulatory matters is here.
Sure; I have seen a TBM going to grass strips too. It's OK, but I did say "most" :)

The grass needs to be solid.

I would actually think that the formula is "if you can afford to run a PC-12, you can put it where you like".

I find the original poster's comments quite irritating.

Someone decides to spend their money abroad to get a cheaper PPL and then comes back to whinge about how things are in the UK deserves no sympathy. Does he not realise that by depriving a UK of the revenue of yet another PPL course that he is paying the consequential price of an airfield trying to make ends meet? Perhaps if he had trained in the UK he would have contributed to our fraternity, done his part for our cause and wouldn't have been so quick to criticise.

So why don't you go back there then!!

I bet he moans about having to talk to mobile phone service providers who are based abroad too:ugh:

Monocock
Monocock

Sorry have butted into this thread because I dont agree with your sentiments.

Surely he should be coming/staying in the UK to get a cheaper PPL than in the USA not the other way around? Isnt that the basis of any free market?

We are saddled with needless over regulation, needless Burocracy, excessive taxes to pay for a whole host of irrelevant things and sadly we are now one of the most expensive highly taxed countries in the world and a country which has eroded away its freedoms through that big brother state mindset.

Why did 70 to 100000 pilots get FAA licences to fly in Europe? Because of a deep love of the USA?

You supply good services and attractive products at attractive prices and the market will follow.

Europe and the UK need to de regulate, reduce taxation, eliminate waste and in aviation put a system into place which is attractive and encourages it to grow not throttles GA to death as is happening now!
Even our most famous academy at Oxford Kidlington palmed out its training to the USA go figure ?

Pace

cjboy Lancs with Hercs
 

The mark 2 Lanc had Bristol Hercules 1650 HP engines fitted because RR could not make Merlins fast enough to satisfy the demand from all the companies who wanted them at the time. The other solution to the shortage was the American Packard Merlin fitted to nearly 4000 Lancs. The Herc engined Lancs built by Armstrong Whitworth were just 300 out of the total of 7374 Lancs made. They had a lower service ceiling and a higher fuel consumption but were faster at lower altitudes.

Pace

Sorry. I must be wrong in my assumption that the OP was British.

Sorry, but it's been a tough transition going from flying every day in a relaxed, positive atmosphere in the US, to being restricted from enjoying the joy of flying as often as I would like by the ridiculously high cost, overtaxed, over regulated UK aviation arena.

Sorry for my quick rant, but England really does suck sometimes matey!

I fly in Italy .......................................................

Accepted, but unless you plan to Fox Oscar back to the US what do you plan to gain by moaning openly about the fees? Did you have a chat with Shoreham about their charges and asking to do a deal on the missed approaches? No, probably not.

I can't quite work out how good the training in America can be if the PPL's they "churn out" are required by the UK instructor system to go round and round in circles when they come back to the UK.....

Quite worrying.

I too passed my PPL not so long ago - it costs me £120 p/h wet in a clubs PA28 from Sherburn. Yes, there's a joining fee, but for the facilities and resources I've got at my disposal it's a drop in the ocean. 4 very well maintained runways, 1 tarmac with APAPI lighting, NDB, about 15 aircraft to pick from etc - flying in the UK will always be more expensive when comparing to abroad. In the same way my Subaru used to "suck" at getting 19mpg on £1.47 superunleaded compared to the 65mpg in my new diesel focus.

Since qualifying, I've had some of the greatest times of my life flying in the UK airspace. I've been across to the coast, down to Cambridge, planning the Isle of Man, last week I got up to FL65 and could see both sides of the country with the viz! And just today, a 3.5hour round trip to a lovely field at Eshott, then on to Holy Island and back through Newcastle Class D (with a KLM airliner 1000ft underneath me right to left) right by the threshold to the active and then again down to Durham.

The thing is - yes it is expensive but surely you knew what you were getting yourself into when you started. My answer: JFDI! Enjoy the qualification you have and remember, it's certainly cheaper at present than owning your own :)

Well said, and well supported of a British flying club.

LeeP-PA28, refreshing post and great to see someone enjoying flying so much :ok:

It doesn't have to be like that - you just need to put the effort into finding yourself a better solution. There have been many useful suggestions in this thread.

Took a Citation into Norwich for a few hours last week. The aircraft owner got a bill for about £400 to land and be handled there and thats not a major airport.

This isnt directed at the handling agents who had an expensive new setup and could not have been nicer.

Nevertheless it does make you wonder how anyone can afford to fly in the UK or for that matter how the airports and their sub industries can manage to survive over here.

Pace

Have a look at the Lancashire landing 2011 thread. Flying in the UK does not have to be expensive or over regulated but you do need to understand the options, which takes a bit of effort.

Rod1

A US PPL is not much cheaper nowadays than a UK one. Their avgas has gone up hugely.

The chief plus of a US PPL is that you can do it as a solid project out there, in a few weeks, whereas the average time in the UK is a year due to training being constantly broken by bad weather. Of course, if somebody picked their time right and camped out next to a UK school they would do better but few UK schools are organised anywhere as well as the US ones, but few people do that because the UK option enables the training to be fitted around's one's life and income. The school I did my IR in (Arizona) was like clockwork. Maintenance and refuelling during the night, downtime = zero. Instructor availability 100%.

Some things remain far cheaper in the USA, e.g. my IR cost me something like $4k (incl motel, travel, and food etc) whereas a JAA IR is something like £15k. But that is due to other factors, not the change of scenery...

Unfortunately people like your client inadvertently create The Handling Problem :) Most jet owners couldn't care less whether they get charged £400 or £2000 for having their sewage drained out and having some delicious coffee and croissants delivered by a very well dressed young lady with a very properly respectful smile and just the right amount of cleavage (the latter must be awfully hard to find within 50nm of Luton). The airport manager, being a fresh MBA from the Univ of Upper Warlingham (i.e. a clue-less moron who has never run even a chip shop) loves this kind of thing and doesn't want "dirty GA" around when these "nice customers" turn up.

For me, what makes it great to fly in the US is not the free landings and such - I'm happy to pay a landing fee - but that they work like all airports should: no bloody PPR and they're open after 5pm. That's true freedom.

Last time I was back and flew into Goodwood (which is a nice airfield) the AFIS woman asked "Have you got a PPR?" to which I answered "no" as I'd deliberately checked in Pooley's that you didn't need one (only that it was recommended). After I said that her whole tone changed and she got curt, short and very unhelpful. That pretty much sums up many English fields for me. They're run by people who like to control you in every way they can and if you won't submit yourself to that, they punish you. If they want a PPR, then by all means make it mandatory and lose some business. Not everyone in GA is out for a Sunday flight with the in-laws, you know. Some actually go places, change their minds, bimble, explore. You know - fly.

That said, there are a number of lovely grass fields where the kettle is on constant boil for any visitors - that's the lovely bit about English fields. Friendly. I feel closer to aviation in those than anywhere else. But they're becoming fewer and fewer.

Pace:


Took a Citation into Norwich for a few hours last week. The aircraft owner got a bill for about £400 to land and be handled there and thats not a major airport.

This isnt directed at the handling agents who had an expensive new setup and could not have been nicer.

Nevertheless it does make you wonder how anyone can afford to fly in the UK or for that matter how the airports and their sub industries can manage to survive over here.

Surely it was a requirement to land at Norwich then? Yet there is Cambridge not too far away with pucka facilities and likely a hell of a lot cheaper than that?

It's all about picking your places. I rang up Durham Tees yesterday and spoke to the Handlers. With a little chit chat, I managed to get the handling fee down to a tenner, the landing fee was fixed at £24.99. Will I land there? Possibly not. But it's good to know a local facility with fuel / facilities / hotels nearby should there ever be problems is there and not a million pounds to land. Compare that to Doncaster and Humberside - both £44 for a PA28 for landing, then there's handling at Donny too....

With my membership, I also get unlimited landings/go arounds. I frequently when returning from a flight pop in and do 3 - 4 circuits, just to keep currency with them. The club always has back seats available (sometimes side seats) so always someone to go flying with. It's what's it all about....!

There's Fenton 2nm away where I can request ILS approaches too when the training permits - perfect!

Yeah, there has been indeed. A useful thread and it's definitely given me a few ideas. Thanks peeps.

I pay about £80 for annual membership. For that I get unlimited landings, circuits, go-arounds etc at my home base and twelve other airfields with which we have a reciprocal arrangement. I don't go to the likes of Shoreham, or buy bottled water.:)

Obama tried to implement aviation user fees. Fortunately, they were lobbied out

In my opinion, the biggest advantage to doing a PPL (or any other licence) in the USA, for a Brit, is that you've removed yourself from the home environment, and they have really excellent weather availability in placess like Florida or Arizona.

So, you can reasonably hope to do courses on the basis of 7-10 hours of flying per week. That sort of intensive flying, really gets the learning curve nice and steep, so there's a good chance of doing it in minimum hours.

If you end up doing a bit of further training back in the UK, well so be it - that's fun (as all flying training should be) anyhow.

I did my PPL(M) in the UK and took a little over minimum hours but about 9 months, my PPL(SEP) in Florida in a fortnight and minimum hours, and my CPL in the UK in 18 months and somewhat over minimum hours. I primarily blame the slow learning curve caused by doing things at a lesson (or often less for one reason or another) per week.

So, there's much to be said I think for learning in the USA - just accept that things at home are different and if you've not actually flown in the UK much before, you've some additional learning to do.

G

Absolutely. I have only flown with instructors since I've been home, practising things like the overhead join (give me a 45 anyday :cool:), transit through controlled airspace, MATZ penetration, and just radio practice and experience. The radio is an interesting one and is certainly harder on the UK. Again, I much prefer the US way but also agree that RT in the US is a bit too relaxed and some of the comms I listened to over there were just awful and damn funny,

Anyhow, doesn't look like there'll be any flying for me this weekend, or many people as the weathers looking nasty. One of my instructors from Florida sent me the METAR from Florida yesterday evening. Not fair.

Indeed you are!

Wait another month then look at them - a lot of "TSRA" until mid October

Yes, Florida is anything but guaranteed for wx, and I recall a post here from another "UK Florida PPL" who was out there for weeks and missed most days' flying, and was well cheesed off. I've been there on holes a number of times...

Arizona is 362/365 CAVOK or easily flyable. But there are no JAA-capable schools there. If there were, they would wipe the floor on training. I recall some European airlines doing training out there, years ago. Must have been just CPL hour building because JAA prohibits any IR training outside JAA-land.

S. California is the only other place.

The whole world sucks. That's how gravity works.

Shy Torque

Things are not good as far as GA goes in the UK at present.
They are not good as far as GA goes in Europe (Frankly they never were as GA didnt exist other than in France and Germany)
The UK is now one of the most expensive highly taxed countries in the world.
Today there is a warning to the conservatives on wanting to be the green party regarding carbon emissions.
It is warned that this policy will jeopordise the recovery. The UK emits 2% of world Carbon emissions yet wants to be the leader in tackling a problem which is dwarfed by the Icelandic volcano.
Things are not Rosy regarding GA in the UK or Europe.

Pace

Didn't you play the donkey in Winnie the Pooh?

No that was me.