Stuck in the circuit
 

Hi guys and girls,

I'm hoping for a bit of reassurance / inspiration as I'm starting to get a bit frustrated with my PPL training!

I've been taking lessons since March 2009. I've been doing circuits since July 2009, and I'm starting to wonder whether I'm ever going to move on. Unfortunately, as I imagine is the case for a lot of people, I can't afford to fly every day, and I'm generally managing two lessons a month, occasionally three. Over the winter I had a lot cancelled due to the weather, and so overall my circuits have been pretty sporadic.

I totted up the hours in my log book this evening, and of my 25 hours so far, 16 have been spent flying circuits without yet having soloed. It's not that I'm worried per se about being "slower than average" or anything like that, but to be quite honest I'm just getting a bit bored and frustrated of flying around the same bit of airspace every time. So I suppose I have two questions:

1. Is that actually a fairly normal number of hours to be spending in the circuit before reaching solo, and it just feels like a long time because it's been spread out over the course of a year? I'm generally a quick learner and I'm fairly well co-ordinated (my other hobby is kart racing) so I wouldn't generally expect to take longer than average, but I suppose you never know what you are and aren't going to be good at!

2. Is it actually feasible to learn and make progress in such a sporadic fashion or do you really need a more concentrated period of time, and am I therefore just wasting money by having one lesson and then two or three weeks off? If so I'd be inclined to take a break, save up a few grand and then do one or two lessons a week for a while.

I appreciate that the monetary situation is going to have to get better if I want to do this as a long-term activity - fortunately I'm in a career where my salary should go up by a decent amount in the next few years (I'm a recently-qualified solicitor), so it's more a question of what I should do at this point. If the answer is go gliding for three years and come back to engines, then fair enough.

Any wisdom much appreciated! I'm going to talk to my CFI about it this weekend, but I always think the more points of view you have the better :)

EDIT oh, and I fly at a small airfield so no time to speak of hanging about waiting for a slot - I usually manage 5 or 6 circuits for an hour of logbook time.

What is your instructor saying?

If its because you are flying sporadically, book a block of sessions close together.

But we all have periods where progress is slow. Sometimes it might be worthwhile moving away from a task that has become boring or frustrating and have a few lessons doing something else.

Hi Juno

My recollections of my PPL training were similar to yours .... although I think I was doing a solo at around the point you are at now, possibly slightly sooner.

I was also only flying every other week or so, even took an 18 month break in the middle due to money constraints. It is perfectly possible with average ability to progress at this pace.

As soon as you get the solo out of the way, then it all starts to get more interesting with the Navexs etc, so I would suggest that when you speak to the CFI you find out how they think you are progressing towards the first solo. Maybe suggest that they tailor a few lessons with a small navex to another airfield to do circuits there or something similar ... to keep the interest up.

Also type of aircraft flown can be important. I seem to recall I could nail a low wing aircraft in the circuit really easily but put me in a cessna and I was all over the place, maybe even worth trying an hour in a different aircraft if for nothing else other than a change. This might be frowned upon as not the quickest way to achieve a solo, but if it gets you past the boredom bit to the interesting stuff then a couple of extra hours on the course wont be wasted.

Keep it up .... nipping over to Le Touquet for lunch makes it worthwhile ;-)

The worrying thing about your post...as implied by Robin...is the absence of comment on your instructor's view.

Your sporadic training may be a factor, but many people do the same and make somewhat quicker progress. If you are stuck or struggling on a particular aspect of your flying, or on several aspects, your instructor would surely have let you know what the problems are, and given you strategy's for overcoming them.

If this hasn't happened (which I would find hard to believe) your alarm bells (re the quality of training you are getting) should be clanging loudly.

I am NOT implying this is case; I'm merely suggesting, your debriefs should be covering your problems and adressing possible solutions. I would have thought a short burst of concentrated training would have been a reasonable starting point?????

16 hours in the circuit!!!

Go and find a instructor thats gets as bored as I do in the circuit.

then go out of the circuit and recap all the basic exercises.

Do loades of circuits at altitude aiming for a field practising the check s and configuration changes etc. Then go back to have a crack at landing the thing.

I would suggest a change of instructor is in order though.

1. I think anyone is going to do "better" by having the lessons closer together. Now I know you said you can afford on average around three a month. If possible see if you can perhaps book a morning and afternoon slot one day and a third slot within a day or two of the first two,
2. Circuits get boring, and learning should be fun, particularly if you are taking your time. Tell your instructor you are getting bored and ask if you can cover some of the other aerial work away from the circuit even if this means your PPL takes a few hours longer. In fact you might find this helps you with your circuits,
3. Beg, borrow or steal some P2 trips with qualified club members - you will be amazed how much help flying with others can be in helping you get your own circuits together. Good landings derive from seeing the "right" approach perspective time after time. Ideally fly with another club member who rents or owns the same or a similiar aircraft to that in which you are training,
4. Book one lesson on a day you happen to know your instructor is away or booked with someone else. Just sometimes the chemistry between you and your instructor is wrong. You might find you get on better with a different instructor and make better progress. After all you have got nothing to lose.

I'm afraid I can't agree with point 3: I did take a couple of trips as P2 but, even though they were fun in their own way, they added little to my learning as I was "on the wrong side" i.e. in the right-hand seat which completely alienated me from learning anything.

Point 1 I can certainly confirm: we all have our limitations, financial not the least, but whatever lessons you can afford will be more effective if they are close in time. Better to have three in a weekend, and then nothing for a month. However, to get 3 lessons flown, one would have to book 5 or 6 most times of the year, given the unpredictable wx.

Most of all I wish to confirm point 4: my final "aha-erlebnis" come from an instructor I had never flown with before, and he only said what others had said before him, but he said it in the right words and at the right time. Sheer luck, I reckon, but the trick was done and that's what counts.

Jan - yes I would agree point 3 is controversial - and I did wonder whether to include it. If you have piloted from the right seat you will know that the perspective looks a little different - the first few hours quite a bit different. However you really start to notice the difference half way down final AND you notice it far more if you are flying the aircraft rather than watching someone else flying. (or at least that is my experience). For that reason I included 3 because I have found, and found myself, that it was very helpful. Ask a pilot who has never flown an aircraft right seat before to fly a circuit, approach and landing and 9/10 will fly the circuit and top of the approach fine - it only then starts to get a little ragged in my experience.

It may well not suite everyone, and, for those who have tried, you might have found it was unhelpful.

I would be interested to read others thoughts who have tried.

The perspective difference was the easiest, and the least unexpected. What I remember putting me off balance was that the flaps handle, trim wheel, throttle, &C were suddenly under my "other" hand; i.e. I had to search for them and as a beginner one doesn't have time for that in the circuit; at least this beginner didn't.
But I am as curious as you to read other experiences.

Long ago I had the same problem - endless hours in the circuit till I thought that I was just no good at flying. I went to the CFI and said that I thought I'd give up and he said "no, book a double slot next week and I'm sure you'll manage it". And lo - I went solo, and it was a complete anti-climax, because I was no better that week than I had been for the last few (I didn't teach flying but I did teach skills with quite similar needs)

It took a while to work out that the school hadn't been entirely honest with me, but when I worked it out, I moved away smartly.

B

Jan - I think we are at cross purposes. I didnt mean the poster should fly the circuit from the right seat, just spend some time watching another pilot doing the flying and enjoying hopefully a free right seat ride. Flying the aircraft from the right seat I agree will just confuse you and really would be a very poor idea.

I think Bern has hit the nail on the head though.....

The other thing is not to worry about the idea of solo. Sometimes the pressure of the expectation of going solo degrades your performance.

Another factor is a lack of mental preparation prior to the flight. I like to get to the airfield a good hour before my flight so I can get into 'flight mode'. There is an interesting book called the 'Inner Game of Tennis' that explains a good technique of imagining the perfect outcome before you do it.

A while back I was converting a fairly experienced pilot to my aircraft and he had a lot of trouble relaxing. He would rush up to the airfield and start to get ready to fly before he'd calmed down from the journey.

Finally, I decided one day that the best thing was not to fly, but to go for a coffee, to talk through the flight in some detail before we went flying. He did some of the best landings I'd seen.

But don't pressure yourself

Try gliding...and in three years? Stay with gliding! It'll offer far more challenges than power flying (which is fine if you're into following needles, procedures and constantly talking to ATC). In gliding you'll learn lots more about judgement skills, spatial awareness, meterology, personal decision making, managing complex workloads, handling unusual attitudes, team working and sensing the air around you. Still, if your end goal is to go from (A) to (B) in a predictable way, stay with power flying :-)

I have been power flying for 27 years and never yet managed to get from A to B in a predictable way...

or better yet get the FI to demo more circuits, (or at least the parts you find hard), with a running commentary.

I suspect there is often an attitude of 'keep on trying it will come right one day'. That's not the same as being taught.

But assuming you actually leave A, you will almost always get from A to B, rather from A to a field somewhere in the general direction of B!

Juno

I think you need to have an hour with a different instructor and ask them their opinion. I have heard of countless students who are being relieved of their cash when they are perfectly capable to fly solo.

If this isn't the case then you might just be crap, but I think that's highly unlikely as you kart race and you speak with confidence about what you are doing.

Thanks everyone for taking the time to reply - it's been really helpful to read through so many opinions :)

I deliberately didn't mention my instructor in the first post as I wanted to see if I was just making a mountain out of a molehill or if I was actually taking an unnecessarily long time in the circuit. What my instructor generally says is that it's not an unusual amount of time to take to get to solo, that I'm nearly there but that there's just a few things need tweaking, and that maybe in the next couple of lessons I can go up on my own. Except that he's been suggesting that I'm nearly ready for solo since around the start of the year... He's happy that the rest of my circuit is fine but isn't quite happy with my landings yet.

Much as I like my instructor and get on well with him, I am starting to wonder whether he's just a bit too laid back for me to make proper progress. What someone said above about 'keep on trying it will come right one day' does sound a bit familiar. He's also pretty young, and although I don't think for a minute that necessarily makes someone a bad instructor, I wonder whether it's partly down to having less experience that is making him more cautious about sending someone solo too early.

I know that having the big gaps between lessons is going to result a bit in having to spend the first part of each lesson remembering what I'm doing. To that end, my routine on a flying day is generally to sit down with my books for at least half an hour beforehand and review my notes from the previous lesson and the section in the Flying Training book that I'm on, and to mentally talk myself through a circuit and what happens at each point. I generally aim to get to the airfield about half an hour before my lesson, and have 15/20 minutes parked up on the road at the end of the runway with my airband receiver on to get my head back into the radio as well.

I'm going up with a different instructor on the next two weekends as mine is away, so I'm going to explain the situation to him and see what he thinks. I'm also in a position where I'm going to be moving house in the next six months and therefore also moving airfield. I'm suspecting that's going to involve a change in aircraft, so I think if I still don't feel like I'm getting anywhere over the next couple of lessons I might just take a break and have a fresh start somewhere else later in the year.

Ask to see your instructor's notes on your progress.

The bottom line is you need an instructor change, some students progress levels out with the same instructor, the instrctor may be doing nothing wrong but he may be sending you signals that you are not aware of.

A change of instructor will cure this.

If the instructor change fails to work then the CFI needs to look at your records from day one to see if something in the pre CCT phase has been missed or rushed.

I think circuit banging is exhausting and due to the brain overload and the student being soaked in sweat it does not achieve very much.

Even in the early stages, it is nice to actually go somewhere, to remind the student that flying isn't just damned hard work.

IO540
 

Have to say IO540 struck a chord with me and my ppl training!

I wouldn't say that I considered myself stuck in the circuit at the time, but I had been giving it a good bashing for a few lessons and wasn't making any real progress.

It was starting to become a bit fustrating and I wasn't looking forward to my lessons as much as I knew what was in store. My instructor recognised this and my next lesson was out of the circuit (something like general handling) and it was like a breath of fresh air.

The very next lesson was back in the circuit but for some inexplicable reason, it all just fell into place. Before I knew it my instructor got out and sent me off solo!

Looking back, I think the pressure and frustration had been building for some time. Getting out of the circuit seemed to release this pressure and worked miracles for me.

I was very fortunate to have an excellent and experienced instructor.

My experience as an instructor is if ia student is not progessing in the circuit than the problem is weak fundamental flying skills. Poor attitude control is the usual problem manifested in the nose contunually nodding up and down on final with the airspeed never stabilized on the proper value. This is often combined with way too much power on final and therefore execessive airspeed into the flare. When the power is chopped it all goes to hell.

My 02 cents. If your circuits are not getting better than go to the practice area. I think this is even more important for students who do not fly regularly
as skill fade on the fundamentals will set in. It is hugely more efficent to fly regularly when taking lessons , so much so I recommend you save up enough money to get at least the first half of the course done before starting your PPL lessons.

So, just to clarify, is 16 hours generally too long to have been doing circuits and not be ready to solo? Most of the replies seem to think that there is a problem so I assume that's the general consensus?

Everyone is different - but it does seem quite a lot. Mine went like this:-

7:10 of general handling, then 9:40 hrs of circuits before first solo.

I did fly every single weekend though - only missed three lessons over a ten month period. I'm now at 53:30 and doing my skills test next weekend.

I had a two month period where I couldn't fly solo due to a problem with my medical and this mucked up the order of my training a bit.

It really does "depend".

I'm in the middle of a licence upgrade at the moment, and chose do to it when available from the airfield I work on, rather than (say) taking 3 weeks off work and going off to Florida, where at least the weather is reasonably consistent.

Despite having lots (1000+) of hours flying, I've taken a lot more hours than I expected because it has stretched out over a similar period - lots of weather cancellations, and lots of gaps. This has all slowed up my personal learning curve and a 25 hour course will have ended up taking 35-40.

To be honest, I'm happy to be reasonably philosophical about the number of hours I've taken, but I've no doubt that if I'd just done the Florida thing, it would all have been done in far less hours (and thus rather cheaper). This sort of stretching is an inevitable extension of flying irregularly, which itself is a fairly inevitable consequence of trying to learn any aspect of flying in the UK.

G

From memory I spent about 12 hours in the circuit before solo-ing. Afterwards went straight back to dual circuits before starting Nav. Not really sure there is an average.

Good luck with it, sure it will all fall into place, probably when you least expect it to!

Juno 78
Your instructor should have taken you out of the circuit for at least 20 minutes revision of the upper air work long ago.
The CFI should have been monitoring your progress and either flown with you himself or given you a change of instructor.
Either way, you are not being best served by their inattention to your progress. Find a better club.

Thanks again everyone for the helpful and thoughtful responses. I actually think a change of club might be good for dealing with the boredom of circuits too - that might be what I need to just get that bit of improvement.

I'm inclined to think that my club haven't exactly been on top of my training, from what everyone's said here. Although I'm going to try out another instructor for a couple of lessons and see how I get on, it doesn't sound like they're doing what they should be doing. Seeing that I have to move anyway, it's probably good timing.

Out of interest, can anyone recommend any particular instructors around Nottingham / Derby? I was looking at Truman Aviation as a possibility (I want to keep flying low-wing so the fact that they have Pipers is helpful).

Also, when I do move clubs, do I just need my logbook stamped or should I be retrieving other paperwork from them as well? I think they have the form with the exams I've taken so far signed off, which I assume I'll need if I don't want to have to go back to them when it comes to applying for my licence.

Instead of staying in "your" circuit, why not take off, fly somewhere, do some circuits, then land for a cuppa and a chat with the FI. Then fly back and if you feel like it do some more.

Book a 4 hr slot or something rather than a lesson....plan to visit a few places, do a few things etc....keep expanding your flying so that when you do crack it you will be more confident in the cross countries.

I took about 25 hrs to solo but that was because I was getting bored and so we used to do the above which is slightly more "inefficient"....(mind you I did an intensive course and the whole lot from zero to PPL only took 5 weeks).

Hi Juno,

When I read your post it made me remember how frustrated I was at that stage of training too. Just going round and round.

You mentioned the midlands, if you are flying at East Midlands Airport you will know that the circuit often takes a lot of time due to the 2 mile long runway and a bit of orbiting for jet traffic. This would add to the time. The first solo is never perfect, you have to be safe, I don't think 'tweaking' is really a good explanation from your instructor. You need to know exactly what it is that you need to do. My landings were rubbish, but kind of safe after 12 hours and I was nervously sent off to fly on my own. Is your instructor new to instructing and a little nervous to let you go maybe?

The other advice is all fantastic, I would agree, book a lesson when your usual instructor is not on, or book with another club. If you try other airfields you will end up having to learn different procedures and different length runways, it may add to the hassle.

Good luck. Please keep up posted in this thread. I would love to know how you get on. We have all pretty much been in this situation in our training where we feel frustrated and stuck.

:ok:

Clifford FW, Donair use C152s but also have a PA28 warrior and archer for PPL training.

Just to back up 1 long final, you won't regularly get 5 circuits an hour in at East Mids. There's nothing worse than having problems with the landing (to which you elude) and spending your hour doing orbits near Ratcliffe power station. Alternatively, work out the schedules and find the gaps in the flow. Not easy nowdays.

Years ago, when doing my PPL at East Mids, I used to go up to Hucknall to do my circuit bashing in an attempt to get my money's worth. It's no better today.

If you move to another airfield or club, I would suggest they'll take you back to handling work as part of their getting to know your current capabilities. You may not need or want to do that for all sorts of reasons including the cost of going over old ground. But yes, your Instructor has clearly got you treading water and you need to change that.

Do you really need to go as far as changing clubs or airfields ? I guess you're at Sywell ?, in which case you ought to be able resolve your circuit issues with the Instructors on site.

Seeking out the CFI is the best instruction i have read on this thread.

I too got a bit stuck in the circuit. I just didn't seem to get 'it' - I couldn't really see what 'it' was, that I wasn't getting. After a change of instructor, to the CFI/examiner for only one lesson, 'it' was explained to me slightly differently, and hey presto 'it' clicked. I still make the odd poor landing of course and most are only average, but whatever 'it' was, a change of instructor helped a lot. A simple re-phrasing of the same instruction. I was mis-timing the roundout and flare. He said something like 'wait until the crash is inevitable, then flare'. That did it for me and I was solo a week later.

By the way, all those hours in the circuit will bear fruit; after my skills test, the examiner in the de-brief praised me for my circuit work, saying my landings were among the better ones he had had when testing PPL; (that could not be said about the rest of the test, mind....:O).

It is not all wasted time for you going around and around, but great experience.

I still wonder if I have still got 'it' - I am more than happy to do plenty of circuits just to get the occasional greaser:).

Just a brief note to support the above statement. A Silver C will give you some of the best stick and rudder and judgement skills at a relatively low cost. Invaluable experience.

Gliding is for those who are time rich and cash poor. while I agree that it is great fun and teaches the basics of flight very well I don't think it will help with this particular problem in a speedy way.

I'm not learning at either East Midlands or Sywell - as I said in my initial post I'm at a small (AFIS) airfield where I'm generally managing five or six landings in a lesson. The reason for asking about Nottingham is that I'm going to be moving to the Derby area in the next four or five months and so can't continue flying out of my current airfield anyway.

and single and looking (though they will prob99 be looking for quite a while; internet dating is going to be a whole lot more productive) ;)

PPL training is much more fun if you do it as scenario-based i.e. flights to different places and mix the training into that. I am "training" my 14 year old plane-crazy son now and hopefully by 17 he will know "everything" (unless he gets into girls) and then, EASA permitting, I will send him to USA (SoCal) for a FAA+JAA PPL and an FAA IR.

The problem with scenario-based training is that it costs a lot more; your £8k average PPL will probably cost £12k. I know of businessmen who did their IR in this way.

Well, if you weren't single when you started gliding, that would soon change!

Someone who doesn't share your interest finds it impossible understand why you have to spend the whole weekend stood in a field and this quickly leads to friction... (well it did for me anyway!)