skill test
 

hi guys
i am hoping to get my skill test done soon and I am looking at the route i was given. I am sure we are not gonna fly the whole route but this is more like a general question of opinion.
Lets say i will go booker turweston duxford and back to booker. This will get me close to cranfield just at the edge of the luton cta (2x). Now according to the map when I fly below 3500ft I will be clear of controlled airspace.

1. when I would plan the route I would fly turweston and than via cranfield towards duxford. Cranfield is a good waypoint and also has a vor I can tune into. --> do you agree or would you go direct from turweston to duxford for the skill test?

Nav aids are there to be used, but I am not sure if this is what you are supposed to be doing in the test..

Let me know what u think

Having done a similar route recently, from Turweston, over SilverStone (watch for their heli pleasure flights), to Cranfield, asking for a zone transit, then towards Duxford. Check NOTAMs to see if Old Warden are active, and make blind calls before going through their zone, as they may have traffic even if the tower isn't manned.
You can go under the Luton zone edges (below 2500, 3500 or 4500' depending on where you are).
I'm based at Halton so know the area quite well.

The Examiner should not give you the route more than 2-3 hours before you take off; this is to stop you becoming excessively familiar with the route and to prevent you seeking advice from others. The test route comprises of 3 points defining a triangle and that is what you are required to plan. If that route means you have to circumnavigate something, danger area weather etc, then the examiner will expect you to use a recognised method which allows you to regain the original route. You should not add your own turning points other than perhaps an offset start/finish point. You are not permitted to use a VOR until you have passed the first turning point, in your example Duxford! Hopefully on the day the examiner will give you a different route.

you will obviously not get as far as duxford, i would brush up on your class D transit radio calls, and maybe expect to call luton for transit to somewhere south of their airspace. possibly the disused BAC factory at hatfield, or elstree.
but the examiner may change their mind at the pre exam briefing and go somewhere else, so dont get too far ahead of yourself.

best of luck for good WX

No real need to make Cranfield a waypoint. You could set the VOR so you intercept the 180 radial from Cranfield and still fly Turweston - Duxford direct.

thanx PfillC, that is the answer I was looking for.

I am aware they might change the route. That doesnt really matter. I have done many NavEx and I got to like the planning part anyways. We will see how it goes.

Nav ex.
Somewhere in the triangle you will have a diversion,this will happen when you are flying one of the legs,you will need to plot and fly the new route and manage the aircraft correctly.
You will be asked to find a waypoint such as an old airfield,lake or similar.
Anyway that's what happened to me.
Then after nav in the skills test you will be asked to demonstrate correct handling of the aircraft in all the situations that you have previously learned.total time around 3 hours,good luck.
Lister:)

All,

Just passed the skills test today so quickly looked up the CAA Scheme of charges and am 99% certain the cost of the licence issue is £176. Can anyone who applied recently confirm this? Just I would hate to send all to them only to have it sent back if I fell two quid short!!

3.1 f):
Also, does anyone with recent experience have any clue as to the wait time? (My instructor advised to allow 6 weeks!! :eek:)

Thanks in advance
Ryan

Got my PPL about two months ago. Yes it's £176, and it was a 2-3week wait. Might be slightly longer now that it's the summer.

RedKnight, thanks for the reply do you know if the £176 also covers the UK Flight Radiotelephony Operators Licence or is this yet another fee?

Ryan5252 - I got my licence in December, there's no charge for the FRTOL if you apply at the same time, so the £176 is correct.

Screetch - Good luck! I was not permitted to use navigation aids for the navigation part of my skills test (but was required to track to a VOR and then obtain a position fix using two VORs before we started the general handling). I don't know if that was just my examiner though - I wasn't given the route until the morning of the test either :)

Joel.

The examiner was following the correct procedure.
If you hold a UK issued Flight Crew Licence or are training for one there is no additional charge for the FRTOL at any time! FCL508 Note 4

I did not know that! Thanks for the correction Whopity :ok:

Joel.

did you guys did a full passanger and captains brief?
What do you say? Can I get an example?

Try the Air Navigation Order!

Me: "Would you like me to brief you on emergency procedures?"
Examiner: "No thank you"

Fair enough then. :ok:. After start and during taxi I did ask him if, as examiner, he wanted to test his breaks to make sure he was happy with them. I think this went down well as he seemed delighted by this suggestion!

There is no Captains brief in a single pilot aeroplane for which you are being tested! This originates from people who are learning to fly multi-crew. The law (Article 88) requires that the commander must make all reasonable steps to ensure that passengers are briefed accordingly. The examiner is probably pretending to be a passenger so listen to what he says he is, and brief him accordingly.

well one of my instructors does a captains brief at the before take off check stage.
The other one does not..that why I never really learned what to say. However it was something along the lines: "We are using 06 runway on the hard. There is a slight wind blah blah. At 55kts we rotate. If there is any sign off trouble we will try and stop on the runway. After takeoff we do a turn towards..."

Do you guys do this for your own SEP flying?? or for the skill test? I mean it is in my C152 checklist..

I do that before each and every flight, if only to remind myself of what I'm doing (or what I'm about to do). I certainly did it for my skills test. Treat the instructor as a passenger and give him/her a full safety brief, including what to do during an in-flight emergency as per the ANO.

My instructors encouraged me to do it, and I did it on the skills test too. I still try to do it now, more to get the emergency procedure imprinted in my own mind rather than for the benefit of anyone else! The brief I was taught goes like this...

"We are using runway 20. Wind is 240/10, so we have a crosswind from the right. We will rotate at 60 knots. If we encounter a problem prior to rotation, we will come to a stop on the runway. If a problem occurs after rotation and there is sufficient runway ahead to land, we will do so. If there is insufficient runway ahead to land, we will look to land ahead, no more than 30 degrees either side."

or something like that :)

Joel.

Hello Joel

Using the word 'we' is ambiguous, who is actually going to fly the aircraft, using 'we' is like saying 'we have control'--With two pilots at the controls it is always essential to know who is in control and when, and if, the situation may change, this is very important during a skill test when the examiner may have to take the role as commander to conclude the flight

Saying, "if you encounter a problem we will come to a stop on the runway" in my opinion is a dangerous statement." I would define that as:

If we have have an engine failure, fire or problem that would render the aircraft un flyable I will stop.

For instance if the door opened on the C152 it would be a problem but we would not stop. Always consider that some problems sometimes can be dealt with more safely in the air.

You are also saying after take off you will re-land if there is a problem, again you are putting a very ambiguous potentially dangerous statement into your mind- would you really re-land for any problem? Beware of making a minor problem into a major one by misunderstanding. An off airfield landing (or re-land) is not something you should elect to do lightly.

You also state that you would only consider landing within a 30 degree area either side of the centreline-so if there was a housing estate within that area you would land in it rather than the field 45 degree to the left? I would replace your 30 degrees with "In the event of engine failure after take off I will land in the safest area available"

Also remember that the ability to turn safely through a larger angle increase with altitude.(and experience).

Its a shame that many pilots never ever consider a local brief, Eg runway length & areas to avoid after TO in the event of an EFATO or even noise abatement.

In regard to pre flight briefing, as an examiner, I expect the candidate to point out how to get out of the aircraft in an emergency, the use of the seat belts and the position of the fire extinguisher and first aid kit before flight and the operation of any emergency equipment appropriate to the flight.

At some stage before flight, I do it it during the pre flight briefing, I would aslo tell the candidate that in the event of a major emergency I will take control of the aircraft by announcing, "I have control". you will respond by saying " You have control". I will then fly the aircraft to a safe place and may ask you to assist with any checks that need to be actioned.

For my NPPL navigation skills test I just asked the examiner if it was OK to skip the briefing. The reply was oh god, yes please !
I did ask her to test the brakes when we were on the taxiway though, which she did.
During take off the door on the C-150 did open but I just ignored it until I had some time to slam it shut. Thankfully, the seat didn't slide back that day.
I suppose the important thing is to make sure you don't just ignore the briefing, but I would imagine most examiners would let you skip it.

If I had no interst in your personal safety and that of your future passengers i would let you skip it too! There is always professional pride too. The problem with everything today is that everyone is always looking for the easy option, the short cut, its just as easy to do things correctly.

The next time an examiner says it's OK to skip something, ask him/her if it is alright if you can skip paying the examinatioin fee too, just to balance it out and see what they say.

The only thing I can remember from my PPL GFT in 1968 was the Examiner advising me ALWAYS to check that the 'passenger' had actually strapped in! He'd obscured his (unfastened) seat belt with his arms to make the point.

On PPL Skill Tests, once we were in the aircraft, I would explain that I was to be thought of as a (reasonably) intelligent passenger who wouldn't ask silly questions, but would point out any aeroplane he saw. On the first navigation leg, all I wanted to know was the ETA at the turning point (with any update) and, if we were off planned track, I'd just want the pilot just to describe what he/she was doing to sort things out.

"If I don't say anything, I've probably just fallen asleep!"

For the 'emergency brief', I would expect something clear and simple. If the pilot launched into a full "Welcome aboard this PA28....." speech, then I would just let him/her get on with it - mainly so that they felt they'd earned a smartie point. But then I'd explain that, as I was the actual Commander, if anything actually went wrong at a critical moment, I would probably take control using the executive words "I have control" - but my intentions would be exactly as the pilot had described.

All those flying a PPL Skill Test should remember:

We've all had to do it ourselves.
There'll be nothing in it you haven't done before.
You wouldn't be doing it if your instructor didn't think you were ready for it.
WE WANT YOU TO PASS!

Very interesting points Pull_What,

With regard to the safety brief, I've always done this with passengers in the aircraft, but before startup. I save the captain's brief until after the power checks.

You're absolutely right in every case. Obviously I'm referring to "I" when I say "we", but there's clearly no point in doing the brief if it could cause further confusion. I'll use "I" in future, which is an easy fix :) Again, when I say "encounter a problem", I do mean "in the event that the aircraft is unflyable", but like you say, I should be more specific about the circumstances that will result in aborting the takeoff, especially since the main purpose of the brief is an attempt to condition my response to an emergency.

Landing back on the runway is an interesting prospect. That's certainly one part of the brief I'm guilty of repeating parrot-fashion. I'm not sure that in the event of an EFATO, I'd be able to accurately determine whether I had enough runway ahead to land.

I wouldn't favour flying into a housing estate in favour of a field 15 degrees further on, but where do you draw the line? In the book "The Killing Zone", the author advises heading into trees under controlled flight rather than attempting to turn too far and risking a stall / spin. I'm sure that judgement improves with experience, but chances of engine failure through mismanagement are higher with lack of experience!

Thanks for your comments, I'm still a new PPL and learning all the time :ok:

Joel.

Exactly, in 36 years I have failed two students, one flew me back to the wrong airfield and the other let it be known, through an other instructor, that I would recieve a cash incentive if he passed!

Morning all,

Sorry to hijack the thread, but whats the rough length of time for a skills test? I heard usually between a 1.5 and a 2.0

Hello again Joel


Yes safety brief before start-ensure pax can actually undo the belt latch-it was my suggestion in 1981 to the CAA, through my flight ops inspector, that changed the public transport briefings in that the action of the release had to demonstrated. I had noticed that at the end of flights as an air taxi pilot that most pax could not undo the release easlily as they were expecting them to be like car belts.


It is an interesting exercise to do some perf calcs on your runways to see where you become airbourne and where you would end up if you landed back from say 50-100 feet.

You cannot learn to fly by numbers alone-the course has to encourage a development of your judgement not just figures based on folk lore.

I am an old ALTP and learning all the time too!

By the way I forgot the crosswind situation on EFATO-imagine a 20 kt wind from the left or right-how would that effect your chosen field?

Thanks for the reply Pull_what,

It depends on the distance to the field - with engine failure at altitude and reasonably strong wind, I'd favour a field downwind, as I'd be able to cover more ground before landing. However, I'd reserve enough altitude to give me time to turn into wind for the touchdown. It's not something I've thought about in great detail before, but with a strong crosswind and EFATO, if the field was very close I'd probably favour turning into wind to minimise groundspeed at touchdown. I could cover more distance turning downwind, but I'd have insufficient altitude to turn back into wind before landing, so would end up landing with a strong tailwind and high ground speed. What would you suggest?

Joel.

I only mention it as a consideration-you may be able to find a suitable landing area straight ahead but if you took an option to, say the left, with a croswind from the right your groundspeed would be higher and hence your 'collision with any scenary speed' would be higher too.

If you think about the aim of the exercise it is TO SAVE LIFE. You are not interested in the aircraft, only its occupants, so you need to chose an area (and manoevre) to complete that will allow just that. So many students seem to think that there will be a 1000 metre strip waiting for then when they lower the nose, all you need is the best area to get the aircraft onto and apply the brakes, you are very likely to have an over run- so that needs to be a consideration too. The Hawthorn hedge on the short field may be a better option than the brick wall on the longer field.

I would add- I would alway try and go for the into wind area --landing downwind puts your touchdown speed up and thus impact speed it also increases the risk of overun and a more serious impact.

As someone once said, aim for the field with the cheapest, sofest overun and go there at minimum speed!

Haha ... out of interest would he have passed otherwise or was he offering money because he knew he was c**p?

He was pretty good actually and I was pretty broke at the time!

thanks for all the responses. Definetly more than I have expected. the closer I get to the test the more I worry and get my self nervous. I just dont want to be the first to fail the skill test...

At least the bbc weather says sunny for saturday and sunday. I am brushing up on the Met exam. However i dont think taking the exam on saturday morning and than doing the last revision before the skill test on sunday. This is all really compact.. but maybe this is for the best. Too much time gives too much time to worry about it.

i have another question though: Stalls -deleted-

This close to your test, ask your instructor to give you a recap, he knows you and knows what you have done.
We all have concerns before tests but if your instructor says you are ready, trust his judgement.

If you have to ask such questions, you shouldn't even be flying solo. Let alone expecting to take a PPL Skill Test in 3 days time....:=

Throttle up to max power and release the back pressure on the control column. DON'T PUSH IT FORWARD.

The stall w/o power manoeuvre is fairly straightforward, since it is done in straight and level flight.

The manoeuvre simulating a stall whilst turning onto base/final is slightly more complex, at it requires you to balance the aircraft and roll out as you increase the power simultaneously. But it all happens very quickly and you'll be climbing in a flash. If you can't do both acts simultaneously, increase the power before you roll out the aircraft (because applying the ailerons whilst in a stall will disrupt the already-poor airflow and may potentially send you into an uncontrollable spin).

And finally the manoeuvre simulating a stall on final approach, though it's done whilst the aircraft is not banking, is arguably the trickiest. It requires you to immediately retract one stage of flap (3rd -> 2nd) as you simultaneously increase the power. As soon as you establish a positive rate of climb, retract the 2nd stage, and once again when you establish a positive rate of climb, retract the flaps entirely. It's especially important that you do NOT push the control column forward here because you're simulating a stall on final approach, i.e. you may be very close to the ground already and you do not want to loose any height by pushing the column forward, even if that means you restore your airspeed quicker. Height is of the essence here. Don't forget that the retraction of each stage of flap causes your aircraft to sink as you momentarily lose lift, so you should retract them one at a time and only when you have established a positive rate of climb. Also note that you shouldn't be pitching up right after a stall; although you want to gain height, you first need to gain airspeed! The key is to maintain your height as your airspeed picks up, and once you hit Vx/Vy, climb away.

Hope that helps!

As an examiner I want to know that the student is aware of his legal responsibilities towards passengers. Any briefing must be accurate and understandable. You willl do this, I will do that, no room for the Royal "WE". They need to know where the exits are, how to use them how to Brace etc.

A passenger does not need to know anything about staying on the runway, problems with the aeroplane, landing ahead or "Rotate" speeds which only apply to Perf A aeroplanes. Start telling them all sorts of crap and you will confuse them and most probably frighten them to death.

If we had to land in a field, I will ask you to open the door and adopt the brace position! Do they know what to do? If not show them. You might add that this is to ensure that you can get out of the aeroplane following the landing and bracing ensures they wont bang their head in the event of landing on rough ground.

If the student clearly knows what they are about, there is no need to labour the issue. If they fail to brief, it becomes one of the Aural questions in Section G. If they start spouting irrelevant garbage its part of the process of digging a big hole that often ends in failure.

When conducting stalling exercises, the examiner needs to see that you deonstrate correct use of controls during the stall and recovery; your comments above indicate that you are not sure so how will you convince the examiner that you are safe to carry passengers?

I think people often get confused between passenger brief (best done on the ground when getting passengers into the aircraft) and the emergencies brief (best done at end of the pre-takeoff checks).

They do indeed and its all because modern instructors have been trained as airline pilots first and instructors second.

Screetch

Do you really understand what is happening to the aircraft as it approaches a stall or does actually stall, and do you know why you move some controls before others. In particular are you aware of what could happen if you apply aileron to attempt to level the wings whilst at or near the stall?