Glou idiot !
 

I payed a small fortune today, and visited Kemble Airshow with some freinds , an excellent show. The only problem being an IDIOT flying into Kemble Air space, during the red arrows display, apparently, he would not answer any radio calls, and eventually the Arrows had to abandon the end of there show,
So, if it was you, flying near Kemble at approx 5pm ish, well done, fool,

The CAA take a dim view of people flying into any TRA, but especially one established for the Red Arrows - a year or so ago a Belgian was prosecuted.

See here for the thread at the time.

As someone who did the same as the original poster - went to the air show at Kemble - (and coincidentally spent quite some time planning a flight to avoid the Queen's birthday flypast on Saturday) I couldn't agree more. What tossers the two who apparently infringed the TRA for the Red Arrows are. Sad when it comes to GA-against-GA, but in cases like this some of the GA community just don't seem to want to help themselves.

Andy

A possibly interesting project would be to visit his instructor and find out whether getting notams (which is not really practical other than through the internet) was taught

;)

I believe the telephone was invented a little while before the internet.

There's no good reason for not calling 0500 354 802 at the very least.

Sorry, no excuses for the Kemble infringers.

I'm worried by these all too regular infringements. Apart from the obvious safety concerns I fear a knee-jerk reaction by the authorities. Draconian rules could end up being introduced and the rest of us will suffer.
Maybe some people would suggest more publicity should be circulated about these events, but there really is no excuse as the air law syllabus makes the importance of NOTAMs abundently clear. Very frustrating to keep seeing reports of this nature.

Well I flew into Kemble around 15:30 and departed just after 16:00 LT on Saturday -- even on Saturday there was quite a bit of actitiviy there, and you'd have to be blind Freddy to miss the NOTAMs affecting Kemble & South Cerney. It really does beggar belief - I can only imagine some people really do just get in their aeroplanes and go without checking anything... If it were a case of "unsure of position" then in that vicinity either Brize or Lyneham would assist readily, and if they were too busy there's always 121.5. Gives us all a bad name... :mad:

I'm worried that microlight AV8R is right; the all too regular infringements could easily lead to a knee jerk reaction by the government - particularly as that is their speciality.

Come down hard on those that do it, take their licences away, require 5 hours with an instructor and a full GFT before they get them back.

And, if I'm ever stupid enough to do it, then so be it.

I'd like to also thank the red pig for a reminder that the telephone still exists and the whole world doesn't have to have t'internet.

Will 0500 354 802 deliver a route briefing, along a route where you specify a number of waypoints, including IFR waypoints?

Come down hard on those that do it, take their licences away, require 5 hours with an instructor and a full GFT before they get them back

First task would be to find an instructor who teaches pilots to get notams. Far from common, IME.

It sounded to me like the same perpetrator making repeated infringements.
The leader was heard to say after the first intrusion......"the intruders back again" suggesting it was the same aircraft rather than another blundering through the TRA.
I even wondered if it was deliberate after the third and final breach of the TRA, twas sad to have to end the show on a low note but the public seemed to understand and still applauded the team after they landed.........wonder if they are as forgiving about PPL's? this was another dent to GA's credibility and I felt thoroughly embarrassed as a PPL watching the farce unfold.

How much of the show was flown and how much had to be cancelled, out of curiosity, e.g. 50/50?

Andy

It got to the 'Heart and Spear' section (2 aircraft draw the heart and the 3rd spears it) when the intruder was first spotted, the three jets cleared out with the intention of having another go........but abandoned that, next the 'corkscrew' went out the window too......so, maybe about 50% of a display......it was after the third sighting when Red1 called it a day.
The downside for the Reds is that anyone out of earshot of the commentary would have thought it a f$%k up on the part of the team because infringers aren't always visible to the viewing public (unlike the Eastbourne fiasco) and so yesterdays probs wouldnt be readily apparent.

Cheers -- I suppose another danger is that the Reds themselves might become less interested in displaying at such events, God forbid, should they deem the risk unacceptable... lets hope not.

No as it's not a substitue for some proper planning but it does give geographical locations which, for someone out on a VFR flight, should at the very least give a heads up to a possible issue en-route. I assume people do actually look at maps these days before they jump in the aeroplane and fire up the GPS?

And it's a freephone number so what excuse is there not to use it?

Holier than thou!
 

Is it just me or are all pprune poster's sanctimonious to**ers!

But hang on that would be jumping to conclusions before one had the facts - wouldn,t it??????

As it happens i routed round Kemble on my way back from Devon just before the Reds got going and the vis was challenging for visual nav. We were 8000 hours experience between the 2 of us - i imagine a lower time ppl(on his/her own?) could easily have planned to miss the TRA and still come unstuck.But of course i don't know the facts either so i'll leave it at that.

Thank god for all the other saintly pilots or where would we be?

This is my last post here as i have finally had enuff of this DRIVEL.

Probably :rolleyes:

If this event was a one off fair enough, but in the day job I see traffic infringing CAS and TRA to a greater or lesser degree (and with a few pretty close calls with scheduled traffic) on pretty much a daily basis so it becomes increasingly difficult to remain 100% sympathetic.

And I'm not being sanctimonious when I ask if people look at maps these days because the reports after the fact have shown than in a number of infringements of the airspace I work in maps weren't being looked at, just out of date GPSs.

Whatever, the facts will come out in the wash, but in the meantime there is no harm in publicising any means available for trying to make sure that one is aware of everything that may be happening in the air around you.

Cheerio.

It's just you. :ok:

:D

We should ask why these infringements happen. There seem to be a lot of them, and I reckon it is a problem with the way Notams are disseminated. Even I have trouble wading through 50 pages of A4 textual rubbish and staying awake.

Now is the time for the AIS to release a GRAPHICAL officially endorsed Notam plotter which shows these TRAs etc...without all the other rubbish and allow one to just include today's pertinent Notams. If the author of NotamPlot can do it, I'm sure some boffin in AIS can knock up one in half a day.

Anyway, I'm sure whoever did infringe the display didn't do it deliberately, and will probably suffer a lot more than those who missed half of the red arrows display. (wasn't me, honest, I'm in Norway;) )

I have never called that number and have no intention of doing so.

To take up IO540's point, it is a legal requirement to properly prepare for a flight including checking NOTAMs, AICs and the AIP etc.

A briefing from AIS will include any TRAs for the red arrows etc as well as all the other information one is legally required to check. The telephone message merely repeats what one has already received in the legally required briefing.

Thus there is no need to ring any freephone numbers if one has obtained a full and proper pre-flight briefing.

Perhaps some pilots think that if they ring the frephone number that they do not to get a full AIS briefing before flight? - Wrong!

---------

IO540,

Agree that many instructors and examiners do not ensure that students/candidates check notams and aip etc pre-flight. Many people obtain PPLs without having ever consulted the AIP. How can that be done?

Of course those former students become instructors and very soon, hardly anyone knows how to brief properly for a flight!

Regards,

DFC

Good for you DFC, I wouldn't have expected anything less.

The point remains however that it is a facility that is there, free of charge, to be made use of.

In the imperfect real world it appears there are still some people flying (talking simple day VFR here) who, for whatever reason, fail to brief themselves properly (if at all) before so doing.

If, at the very least, they just picked up the phone before climbing into the cockpit they would probably be warned about the most likely airspace gotchas that might otherwise embarass them.

It may not fulfil the legal requirements to the letter but it would be a lot better than what seems to be happening too often at the moment.

I think it's very easy for all those who spend their days and nights ;) on pilot forums to make sweeping judgements about other pilots.

Yes, everybody reading pprune, or any of the countless other pilot forums that load up the internet with varying degrees of success, ought to know about www.ais.org.uk.

But let me tell you that in my 600+ hrs of flying over 5 years I have almost never heard of internet weather and have never heard of getting notams via the internet or through any other means. In training, the instructor would pin a fax with some local notams to the noticeboard and that was it. It was only through reading some pilot forums back in 2001/2002 that I discovered these great resources.

About 3000 PPLs get dished out every year. The CAA (probably very sensibly) doesn't release the total # of nonexpired PPLs but it's thought to be of the order of 20000. It's also known that 80-90% of PPLs don't make it past the first renewal.

So, we have a lot of PPLs which expire more or less right away, and I don't suppose those pilots feature very much in infringements.

Based on the known average PPL award age of about 40, and the likely age before a holder fails his CAA Class 2 medical, we have a much larger population of pilots who have been flying for say 10-30 years. These people may be hanging around at flying schools or clubs but a lot of them (I can't guess how many but it must be the majority**) are flying entirely outside any training environment.

This last group will see an instructor every two years (and this itself is quite a recent thing). Often it will be an old pub mate of theirs who will sign them off without much formality. But this instructor, being most likely a member of the old school, won't know about internet notams or internet weather or internet anything, or indeed anything that's happened since WW2.

There is another group which flies entirely outside the training system: the private IR pilots. Many of these did their stuff in the USA, and they cringe at the thought of hanging around a flying school where some sanctimonious airport bar pilot will tell them to not use a GPS. However, these people are pretty modern, have all the gadgets and use them, and they will very rarely find themselves somewhere unexpected. Hard to do anyway when being vectored by London Control :) The few of these who are on G-reg and thus receive GASIL or GASCO toss those old rags straight in the bin.

It's the people that got their PPL years ago and are outside the system but who fly at a low activity level who are most likely to get into this kind of trouble, and it's no use pontificating that they are dickheads, etc. They are just victims of the substandard PPL training system - just like I was when I dropped out of it 5 years ago.

Finally we have which I might call the pure sport flying group. I don't want to suggest I have anything against microlights but the general level of aviation professionalism there seems to be even lower than in the PPL(A). A lot of these people can't navigate if you paid them for it, and I doubt they were ever trained to get notams any more than PPL(A)s.

(** most schools don't like PPL holders to hang around; they prefer students to spend all their precious money on lessons, not subsidising some PPL's cost sharing scheme ;) )

Completely agree:ok:

If you're getting 50 pages when everyone else is getting 1 or 2, the "problem" must be between the chair and the keyboard.

Quote:

---

".....AIS to release a GRAPHICAL officially endorsed Notam plotter

---

"

Just as an exercise once I wrote a little PC programme that took selected Items of Notam info of the Web and displayed it in Microsofts MapPoint as diferent coloured pushpins... I could see at a glance where things were happening on any given day... so presumably it could be done quite easily for any data with a geographical (eg Lat Long) reference.

:uhoh: Interesting title to the thread.
How do you know the intruder was over Gloucestershire and not err Wiltshire?

By the time I departed Kemble, it was not known what / who the infringer was.

A glider, a microlight or a PPL in a light aircraft.

Let someone else be the judge when the facts are known.

I have to agree with Englishal. When NATS had really good on airport AIS', the charts were plotted for all to see.
I think Guernsey FBU must be about the only one left that I visit where this is still done:D

So what is wrong with Notam Plot.

It is free,

It is real time,

It shows all the data in a graphical interface.

http://www.notamplot.flyer.co.uk/

Enjoy.

Interesting that IO540 states

"The few of those who are on G reg and thus receive GASIL or GASCO toss those old rags straight in the Bin"

Perhaps if the offending pilot at Kemble had read the latest GASCo bulletin before disposing of it he or she might have sen the article on page 6 entitled "The red arrows and how to avoid them" in which case this thread wouldn't even exist.

However I won't go anyfurther with comments about the rest of the tirade against almost every part of GA except his or herself as it has to be a wind-up.

Excrab

I think the point being made (tongue in cheek) is that if you brief properly and navigate properly and take your flying "seriously" there is not a great deal for you in GASIL - for everyone else it is worth a read!! :)

In my opinion the real lesson is to establish why this type of issue arises all to frequently. I share the view of those who have said the training industry is very poor at informing pilots where to get this information and what is required to ensure they have breifed themselves properly.

In this country it reamins the case that it is difficult to see how this essential information could be supplied in a more disjointed and un-userfriendly way.

If the authorities are really interested in preventing the next re-occurence then they should at least ensure the training industry is doing its job properly AND the relevant information is made available in the most effective way possible.

The CAA seems to be reluctant to act against any interests of the flight training business.

It would be difficult, for example, to include GPS in the PPL syllabus (simply because most schools would raise hell over the necessary mandatory fitting of the equipment in planes used for training) but it would be easy to make schools teach internet based notam briefings.

I suppose that some schools are still bound to vigorously complain, on the grounds that the £25/month they will be forced to pay for an ADSL connection is going to drive them out of business :ugh:

Does anyone know what fees, if any, does the CAA get from the flight training industry? They don't (normally) get the very lucrative AOC fees.

However, as I said already, I suspect (do any surveys support this?) that most c0ckups like this one are done by "old pilots" who don't hang around within the school/club system, and infrequently, for many years. Perhaps it happens on the rare occassions they venture outside their usual bimbling area. If the data does not support this, then the blame is squarely on the flight training business.

In any event, the blame is on the instructors/examiners who do skills tests and bi-annual checks. But if the CAA doesn't require this to be tested....??

The notam delivery system will never change. It's international, it has countless d1ckheads all over the world feeding rubbish into it, and you have to learn to live with it. GA doesn't count in Europe. The Narrow Route Briefing works perfectly well. The problem is if you want to bimble over a large area; then you just have to read through a lot of stuff but again most of it is obviously rubbish and doesn't take a long time to scan through (minutes). Far less time that a preflight check.

The AIS website has frequent problems but one can phone them with a list of waypoints and a fax number and the man will instantly fax you the data. Not satisfactory I know (not many pilots have a fax) but better than nothing. I suppose they could read it to you if you press them?

I0540

Perhaps I should have said training and "examining" industry. Your point about the old "f%$"Ts" is I am sure valid but these should be getting caught during their two yearly renewal.

Who amoung us was asked at their last two yearly how they brief before their flight?

I don't think there is a requirement to check this stuff at the license renewal. That's what's fundamentally wrong with the system.

I know some instructors do check general navigation (and notam gathering) ability at this point but most don't. Of course those that don't won't be reading this stuff, either. I can't recall how many instructors I have shown how to do this. Most think internet weather is plain amazing...

By "old" I didn't mean to imply above a certain age, just those who got their PPL some years ago.

I'd bet that the bulk of the farm strip flying scene is not conversant with this new fangled stuff :)

"I don't think there is a requirement to check this stuff at the license renewal. That's what's fundamentally wrong with the system."

No, nor do I.

My point was that if there are to be twice yearly renewals make their content as pro-active as possible. If you accept there are pilots "outside the system" then use this opportunity to ensure examiners bring them up to date on the issues of the day.

The analogy is with professional training. One of the reason why the professions have compulsory CPE is that it provides a good opportunity to ensure the "carrot crunchers" are at least getting exposure to the issues and concerns of the day.

In short, rather than whineing about these infringements or just prosecuting the pilot do something pro-active. At least be certain this sort of information is reaching the unwashed and unworthy. Then by all means prosecute if you will.

Blaming instructors/examiners
 

It's easy to blame instructors and examiners, but remember we have each passed a skills test, and hence demonstrated that we can plan and execute a nav flight. What we then do once let loose on our own might be very different!

When conducting the bi-annual flight as an instructor, there are certain basics I expect a student to know and do....ie demonstrate AIRMANSHIP, and surely this includes pre-flight planning?

There is a lot to cover in the bi-annual flight, and mostly I try to concentrate on the skills that get rusty (i.e manouvres that PPL's perhaps don't practice on every flight). If the bi-annual check was to cover everything in the PPL syllabus then it would take a lot longer and instructors, examiners and of course the CAA would be accused of costing the average PPL even more dosh.

PPL's need to accept THEY are PIC, hence blaming the instructing and examining community only reaches so far.

GQ

"When conducting the bi-annual flight as an instructor, there are certain basics I expect a student to know and do....ie demonstrate AIRMANSHIP, and surely this includes pre-flight planning?"

Exactly.

On the taxi out.

So I assume you have the NOTAMs for the day. Oh, good where do you get them from? How have you ensured they cover the area in which we will be operating today. You do realise there has been an increase in flying display infringements and the CAA will prosecute.

.. .. .. and I assume you have the weather? What is it and where did you get the information from.

So let me see - that takes all of 5 minutes.

No - if you are doing bi-annuals focus on the areas that are really causing pilots a problem if you possibly can, and if you are the regulator encourage examiners to do so. It can be fitted in to the one hour made available but it is a matter of ensuring the emphasis is in the right place.

I would agree with the view that the biennial flight is the perfect place to catch up with changes in legislation and procedures. But given that the flight has to be a minimum one hour this can add a bit to the rush to get things done.

I would suggest that the flight should not be specified as a specific time. After all the flight test can be of any length. That way non-flying issues can be dealt with in a more reasonable way

My two-penneth worth on the question of where/how people get their NOTAMs:

I wonder whether a lot of training organisations, such as BAFC at Wycombe where I learned, have a system where the NOTAMs for the local / training area are pinned on the briefing board, along with hard-copy of the weather etc? I think this is great for students in one respect, i.e. they can get in the habit of checking the print-outs pre-flight, but on the other hand this does not breed self-sufficiency.

Maybe we'd be better off telling students from the time they start their cross-country flights that they have to get the NOTAM and WX themselves, at home via their PC (yes, I think you do need a PC - or an Ops dept - to fly these days!) before coming in for the lesson, rather than have it served up on a plate in a club environment. Because at some stage after they get their license, they'll begin flying from places other than the "safe" club environment they trained in and we need to be our own self-sufficient Ops Dept to fly in our busy skies!

Andy :ok:

"I wonder whether a lot of training organisations, such as BAFC at Wycombe where I learned, have a system where the NOTAMs for the local / training area are pinned on the briefing board, along with hard-copy of the weather etc?"

Exactly so. I think this is almost the universal way things are done.

.. .. .. and of course once you have your PPL, they are not really interested in you any more. (with some very good exceptions of course).

The other factor I suspect is some pilots simply get lazy. You know the thing. I think I will go fo a little potter round the local patch. I know it well enough. There arent usually any NOTAMS to worry about and I cant be bothered to check.

Ooops what was that red streak!

Well yes that may be the case, but even if it is not you will find yourself flying further afield than the area covered by the briefing board as soon as you have your license, so people will anyway need to take responsibility for their own NOTAM and Wx planning and simply haven't been taught to do so I think...

Andy :ok:

"So what is wrong with Notam Plot.

It is free,

It is real time,

It shows all the data in a graphical interface."...

.... it's yet ANOTHER flightware product that is Windows only....

For a group of individuals (pilots) who hate "the nanny state" and demand the freedoms that flight gives, there seems to be an amazing desire to blame "someone else" whenever there's a problem.

It's the instructor's fault
It's AIS's fault
It's the CAA's fault

Whatever happened to personal responsibility? Everyone is taught from the same syllabus, everyone knows what they need to be briefed on (WX and NOTAMs to name 2), so WTF is it "someone else's" fault when they fail to do it? :confused: