Irish um
 

No I'm not Irish, Im English, and have no intention of working in the US
I wouldn't mind retiring there, buy a new house / car / airplane and spend all my cash in the US, however, the US gov, doesn't allow that

Tim CPL

You make an extremely good and compelling case for the way things could be done if there was a will.

America has many things wrong with it as do we. Recognise those parts that work and work very well and adopt those parts.

Next time the CAA bring a prosecution for CZ infringement I hope the circumstances of why the pilot infringed are fully explored. So lets see:

1. You were never trained how or where to obtain NOTAM information,

2. You have to rely on third party software to present the information in a half intelligible way, and in order to do so require access to the internet and a computer,

3. CZs are changed without the officially published charts being amended for months,

4. Little or no moving map GPS training was given to you, and you find yourself relying on antiquated navigation techniques that worked very well before the countryside was littered with CSs and aircraft rarely exceeded 100 knots,

5. I find when I want it controllers are often far too over worked to provide a radar service.

Not a compelling case for the prosecution me thinks :D .

I think, Fuji, this "expose the crap training industry practices" has been tried before, and it worked :) Take that well publicised fuel exhaustion case.

Any half competent aviation lawyer will use this, and rightly so IMHO.

Pity Red Lead didn't get one of the team to intercept the intruder and collect the type and reg.

That would have squared away the individual and stopped the current speculation. Also, whatever happened to radar tracing these days? In times passed, an infringer would have been tracked to destination where the details would have been taken.

Mind you, the Reds displaying paint pretty pictures in smoke writ large against the sky - didn't the twit notice? Or is he registered blind?

Brize apparently tracked the offender until just the other side of the R105 restricted area and then lost radar contact, reckoning that it went below their radar coverage. Both Bristol and Lyneham were unable to help and the suggestion is that the a/c landed in the triangle between Bristol, Bath & Tetbury. Pretty wide area I know but there cannot be that many strips in that area? Badminton were contacted but could not help. Any other ideas?????

Garston Farm? Charmy Down? Winsley? Clutton Hill? I assume Colerne has been ruled out:\

Was the pilot trained in low level radar avoidance techniques := .

Would have been good practice for the RAF to have pursued, intercepted and escorted the miscreant. After all, aren't we supposed to be on the alert for another Bin-Laden atrocity - the C172 filled with explosives aiming for Highgrove?

I don't think a Hawk can fly as slow as a typical club C172 loaded 10% over MTOW :O

And if it could, the AOA would be so high, and the fuel flow likewise, a C172 would easily outrun it on fuel endurance alone. It could get the reg OK though.

.. so the C172 bomber will always get through!!

Robin

Are you serious about a "bomber"?? This is straight out of the Daily Mail...

AFAIK spamcans are normally intercepted by police helicopters; a twin turbine can easily outrun a C172. A jet could shoot one down too; what it probably cannot easily do is escort it to some airfield as was suggested higher up here.

I know the international interception procedures are supposed to provide for slow aircraft interception by jets, but I am sure 99% of PPLs have never heard of them.

"I know the international interception procedures are supposed to provide for slow aircraft interception by jets, but I am sure 99% of PPLs have never heard of them."

.. .. .. but I thought it was in the PPL syllabus?


.. .. .. arent you also required to carry the card!!!

Yes and Yes, Fuji, but if pilots don't (as is claimed) know about CAS then they are far less likely to know about this. To be honest I haven't got a clue what the procedures are, but the card is in my checklist (on the last page).

In fact I would bet that so few private pilots would know what to do, the police (when using their heli) must have some other procedure to communicate with the pilot.

IO540

It was of course a bit tongue in cheek! As you say should it ever happen the card is there!



I am still at a loss on this.

There appears to be agreement that changes to the PPL syllabus would be a very good thing and should prevent new pilots making this type of mistake.

Of course that in itself does little about the eixsting problem becasue of the time it will take to filter through.

The biennial seems to be the other check point.

The common theme seems to be pleas from the instructors that they are only given an hour and there is a lot to cram in.

I just dont buy that.

Isnt an hour sufficent to take in a bit of CAS or if you happen to be in a part of the country where any CAS is too far away at least the instructor could for the sake of the flight redesignate an ATZ as CAS.

So in the south it might go something like:

"Plan a flight to MAY, ask for a clearance direct X (which takes in a bit of CAS), and then back home by whatever route you wish."

There is plenty of time to throw in a bit of upper air work en route (show me a stall, a bit of slow flight whatever you like) and back home a couple of circuits with a PFL.

Surely as an instructor you come away from that knowing whether the pilot is safe (or not) and whether he is likely to be the next airspace infringer.

It seems too simple :confused: :) .

blimey - that brings back memories of plotting out all the airspace restrictions late at night on that big map before going home! :ugh:

useful of course, but pretty pointless plotting out all the in-flight refuelling zones in the north sea :eek:

at least it was nice to know that people actually looked at the thing

I flew up to Manchester that day from the South... Saw the Notam - If I remember correctly, the TRA was a circle around Kemble and not defined with Lat & Longs.... Not exactly hard to avoid.. I also made sure I was speaking to a radar service the whole way past it (Bristol) for just in case I ran off track.

The more infringements there are, the more justification the CAA will have for over-regulating us..... As for the AIS site, try reading the instructions, I have and it seems to work easily every time!

As for the AIS site, try reading the instructions, I have and it seems to work easily every time

:ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

Most PPLs are not taught to use the AIS website.

And anybody who did their PPL before c. 2003 wouldn't have known about it because it didn't exist.

And, it appears, most instructors either don't know about it or don't tell anybody about it when they do their bi-annual check flights with "old" PPLs.

:=

Not true.

Old style A1/A8 bulletins were on the internet yonks* ago (on the NATS website IIRC).

The new style AIS briefing system was introduced 22 August 2002 ;)

* Prior to 1998 at least

Pudnucker,
Beware, LARS won't protect you from flying into CAS, hills, TRA, etc and neither will they be aware that you are moving off your intended track. Radar maps don't have some features, even including some ATZs, never mind transient TRAs. The onus is squarely on you to know where you are and negotiate clearances enroute.

The new style AIS briefing system was introduced 22 August 2002

Here we go again.

Almost nobody (outside those who spend their lives on these internet forums) had heard of it back then.

It didn't work properly even by summer 2003. I busted a Frog nuclear power station TRA then, and narrowly escaped having the CAA prosecute me on behalf of the DGAC. I was able to show that a) the info didn't appear in the narrow route briefing and b) I was receiving a Frog radar service at the time and they obviously chose to not tell me (but they did so kindly remember to ask me my full details including my inside leg measurement, so they could fill in the forms). The Frogs were arrogant enough to supply a radar track printout showing the squawk they allocated to me :)

It works well today, but it's much too late for many pilots, and it will always be too late for the big majority of active PPLs, who fly outside the training system, often flying simple aircraft from nameless farm strips, have better things to do than read the drivel on pprune, drivel on flyer.co.uk, drivel in other pilot forums, and who will probably not discover this for another 10 years.

Got to remember that nearly all those who get a PPL today drop out nearly right away, so even if ab initio training was "fixed" overnight, only a small trickle of people knowing this terrible Masonic secret will find their way into the active PPL community.

I know Shoreham is a bit backward, what with its quaint buildings and stuff, but surely they had a computer in the clubhouse? ;)

Everyone I spoke to knew about it -- and none of them post(ed <= 2002) here or on FLYER.

Are you sure you're not generalising just a smidgen? :suspect:

Agree....

No-one taught me how to use the AIS site..... Seriously, probably best to let a teenage son work it out then show you how to use it :)

I know Shoreham is a bit backward, what with its quaint buildings and stuff, but surely they had a computer in the clubhouse

Did I mention Shoreham, Rustle? My recollection of my training (the location is irrelevant) is that notams were not taught at all, internet was not available (except in one school which folded shortly afterwards and where any aircraft owner was banned from using the facilities), and the tower briefing terminal was a PC hacked to work only for MET and flight plan filing.

Talking of Shoreham, my (vague) recollection of the pilot briefing room there is that internet is not available and this is true for most UK GA airfields. That's why I nowadays never bother with what they call "pilot briefing facilities" at any airport - a laptop with GPRS is a far better way to do it.

Yes of course I am generalising. I am using plenty of words like "almost", "nearly", etc. You are just taking it literally/personally. But this is the problem: the general situation is that a lot of pilots out there don't know they should collect their preflight briefings in this way, but the "establishment" assumes that everybody knows about it. As indeed do all the righteous people on here (and flyer.co.uk, and elsewhere) who immediately have a go at somebody, automatically assuming he is an idiot.

My experience from training, and from meeting other pilots, is that while some are right clowns (and will probably end up in the side of a hill) most are completely normal and far from stupid. Their "fault" is that they were trained in another age, and their contact with these new fangled developments is very minimal.

As regards who has or has not posted on flyer.co.uk, this means nothing because most people use nicknames, and far more people read those forums than ever write anything.

You should have done it in America ;) In 2000, we had DUATs internet access and weather plots, and 1800WXBrief to give us weather briefs and notams before every single flight......

But then again, we are inferior pilots

"Everyone I spoke to knew about it"

Everyone I spoke to agreed the world is flat. So true if your sample was drawn from the flat world society :) .

Unfortunately not the most scientific way of reaching a conclusion other than the one you would prefer. :) :)

About as scientific as
:ugh:

The answer surely is if everybody hadnt assumed nobody knew then more people would have known :confused: .

WTF? :confused:

precisely correct Fuji :ok: :ok:

Surely - glad you liked it!:)

excellent highjacking of a thread !