DFC

I agree with much of what you say.

Of course the PPL should not get you to the stage you can fly aeros or complex or fast aircraft. IMO it should also not get you to the stage where you can set of for the South of France with complete confidence.

What it should do is get you to the stage where you can take on reasonably lengthy flights in the UK being safely able to handle an aircraft of the type on which you trained having properly briefed yourself on the weather and NOTAMS and in the full expectation you will not become one of the all too frequent infringers of CAS.

In the main I think the PPL achieves these objectives.

I think this thread has however "exposed" some serious deficiencies in the way in which pilots are taught to brief themselves prior to a flight. I also believe that it is down to the training industry to rectify these deficiences and not those being trained.

Not only does the training system need to be better (though I've only ever seen FI's showing the planning side properly), the information providers need to sharpen up their act.

NOTAM's are better than they used to be, though they are in no way perfect, Wx briefings aren't standardised and general route information is often sketchy unless you pay for it from a commercial provider.

All of these things should be combined for an easy to use system that gives clear information. A bit like the packs that are handed to commercial crews.

When this is done, then we will see less problems like idiots blundering into TRA's.

IMO it should also not get you to the stage where you can set of for the South of France with complete confidence.

Why not?

Flying in France is like flying in a graveyard, compared to much of the UK. It's also completely within the most basic PPL privileges.

If a PPL is not taught how to dig out a chart for area XXX, look at it, read it, work out a suitable (OCAS) route, and fly it, then he's been well ripped off.

This thread highlights the huge range in the quality of instruction in this country. That then means the panel examiners and the chief pilots should be doing more to ensure that instructors are telling PPL students where and how to get all the information needed to properly plan a flight. But I do think pilots are as much to blame as anyone. In my time as an instructor I saw all too many SF hirers who simply wanted to turn up and fire up and go. Persuading them to do proper pre flight planning was a constant battle. There are many places in the country where NOTAMs are rare and when combined with the frequency with which the average PPL flies, they maybe check the first few times but then give up because they never see anything that affects them.

A good example is the west coast of Scotland at the moment. Normally extremely quiet, but at the moment..... there's a war on. And the NOTAMs contains nuggets such as :

LIVE FIRING WILL TAKE PLACE WI AND ABOVE THE CONFINES OF EGD803 OUTSIDE PUBLISHED HOURS OF OPERATION. THIS AIRSPACE DOES NOT COMMAND DANGER AREA STATUS.

Quite how live firing doesn't command Danger Area Status is beyond me.

"Why not?

Flying in France is like flying in a graveyard, compared to much of the UK. It's also completely within the most basic PPL privileges."

Now come I0 do you really mean that?

1. You have got to get across the stream between us. Most clubs require a channel check out and many are uncomfortable when they first encounter the spacial effects you sometimes find over the channel,

2. As this thread has discussed many PPLs dont know where to find the UK NOTAMs - how on earth do they get on with the French ones,

3. Then there are the differences in airspace. Straight forward in theory - yes, enough to confuse a new PPL - I suspect so,

4. And then whilst we relish having no one to talk to, when they have always had some to talk to it is a bit disconcerting,

5. Of course they have to find the weather, and I said the south of france because we are talking about a days flying for many with a stop or two, and some high terrain,

I could go on at some length.

Remember they will not be flying airways.

In short, I am not saying that in theory they are not capable of making the journey, but I am saying there is enough there to make them think twice, and maybe even thrice.

As the hours and activity height are limited by the UK AIP, I can see why NOTAM'ed activity outwith those limits can't be encompassed as being within EGD803 (as it doesn't exist for the extra times or the extra airspace). Presumably the CAA have a constitutional reason why they can't grant it Temporary Segregated Airspace status (effectively a Danger Area). Perhaps they are awaiting the European airspace model of Single Skies ?? Or maybe because it's in Class G below FL245.

Hopefully the 'extra' activity takes place under appropriate safety measures such as 'Radar Clear Range' procedures :ok:

The recent changes to the Luton CZ will not appear on the CAA chart for ages.

I wonder what everyones views are to this contributing to airspace busts or whether the existing mechanism for promulgating these changes without up dating the charts is adequate?

Personally not too stressed about this as I am based nearby (live 2 miles from BNN) and well aware of it through the various announcements and have amended my charts by hand, plus it fills in a corner tucked underneath some other airspace so unlikely people will take a short-cut through this.

But, I guess it could also be seen as an accident waiting to happen if someone hasn't got the message about the new airspace and sees it as a handy gap on the chart in which to do some high-level work / aeros? The subsequent enquiry would be interesting but would probably put the blame on the pilot I guess...

Andy :ok:

Fuji

Flying in France is like flying in a graveyard, compared to much of the UK. It's also completely within the most basic PPL privileges."

Now come I0 do you really mean that?

I do actually mean that. I've flown there VFR a number of times, right across France. For notams you can use ais.org.uk - it's only the domestic (non international airport) airfield notams that don't come up on there, and one wouldn't be flying to any of those from the UK.

For weather, it's all the same sources (like the notams, on the internet, and that's probably the problem).

Note for the moderator:

As elsewhere (;)) this thread started because someone busted a TRA.

The discussion about AIS provision/presentation is not really relevant to that thread, as the TRA was in the NOTAMs.

Worthy as it is, all this discussion about AIS etc. is diluting the fact that someone was obviously not briefed appropriately and shouldn't have been where he/she was at that time.

Can the AIS/NOTAM bits of this thread be hived-off into a thread of their own, so that the discussion about infringing a TRA isn't lost in the noise?

TIA :)

I0540

Ok, sorry if I didnt take your comments seriously enough.

In my experience the questions you get from new PPLs about going to L2K for the first time never mind the south of France makes me feel on the whole they would not be comfortable with this sort of trip. I certainly would have hesitated when at that stage and indeed did so, although I managed to avoid the need to have anyone accompany me the first time :) :) !

Perhaps other new PPLs would take it on - I dont have enough experience of what others have done to reach a proper conclusion.

To stay on thread, obviously my point was that the lack of training about where to source weather and NOTAM information could in a similiar way result in airspace infringements - including danger areas etc and an uncomfortable interview ith DGAC.

If I get more than five min's to myself tonight I will do it. Just spent a good 40-odd mins' just reading the new posts from the last few hours and I am already late to go out!!!

If I am not too drunk later when I return I will give it a go then.

Fuji

I agree with you. I think it is semantics.

If you asked whether a PPL graduating from the present system should be confident about flying to say Biarritz the answer is a definite NO.

If you asked whether a PPL graduating from a modern training system which I'd like to see should be confident about flying to say Biarritz the answer is a definite YES.

BRL

I don't see the point in splitting up the thread because (as many here will agree) the busts are closely related to the wider picture of pilot training. Pilots are simply not (on the whole) being trained to check notams.

If one takes the view that ignorance is no excuse (which is valid, too) then there is never anything to discuss and nothing will never improve! The CAA may as well publish notams in a thick printed book, once a week, for £100. Perfectly reasonable - ignorance of the law is no excuse.

BRL

I second IO540 - I see no point in splitting this thread for the same reasons.

Save yourself a great deal of work :) :)


IO540

We agree!

FA/IO I knew you two would come to that conclusion - are you married to each other?

The reason I suggested a split in the thread is that now this thread's focus is AIS and briefing, whereas it should have remained focussed on the transgression of a TRA by a pilot.

I know you two like to think that it is AIS's fault that the pilot transgressed, but in reality the two things (briefing/transgression) are not that closely linked.

1. The TRA was in the NOTAMs.

2. Pilot either didn't check at all, changed routes without rechecking NOTAMs, or just missed the fecking great big TRA while planning.

Rustle

I am sorry we cant agree with you all the time. Lifes like that.

The interest on this forum is debating opinions.

I dont think either of us or a number of other posts think it is the AISs fault.

We have suggested it may be attributable to the training pilots receive regarding the sourcing of NOTAMs.

The poster explained he was "annoyed" by an aircraft interfering with an Arrows display. This in itself dloesnt leave a great deal to be debated - ah yes, we are all annoyed!

Of far greater interest is why these incidents are becoming more common. That is what has been debated. I can see absolutely no reason what so ever for splitting the thread which would lose the entire susbstance of the debate and the way it has evolved.

Sorry.

Agree.

Rustle,

I do not think that we would want to have a thred that simply slagged of a pilot for making an error. The whole ethos in aviation is that we are not afraid to talk about our errors, misunderstandings or whatever because the whole idea is to find the reason why that error or misunderstanding happened and to come up with ways that such an error or misunderstanding does not happen again.

To have 50 people slag off a pilot who made a mistake acheives nothing.

To debate the issues that cause so many pilots to infringe airspace or get lost (combine infringements with D+D lost reports) could lead us to the idea that something basic is not being done be it at the training stage or later.

Regards,

DFC

How different it is across the pond
 

I am reading this thread with great interest. Although originally from the UK, and having done some flying there, the vast majority (99%) of my flying has been in the US, and I now understand how spoiled we are here. My (perhaps incorrect) impression of the current state of UK private flying is that you are being regulated out of existence, the costs are skyrocketing, the CAA/Euro control seem intent on marginalising you and any possibilities of safe flying (like an instrument rating) are fast becoming unattainable. In addition you seem to have very poor access to information, and what little there is has to be paid for via premium rate numbers. This is not a dig at any one person, but at the seemingly poor state of affairs.

My experience here has been just the opposite, the system is setup to help the private pilot just as much as the heavy metal fliers, and information is available freely to encourage safe flying.

Just to rub it in, 'over here' we have a freephone number (1-800-wxbrief) to speak to a specialist briefer who can give you NOTAMS (local, distant, FDC), TFR's, weather, fight planning & filing and a hundred other useful bits of information. In addition there is the excellent NOAA WX site with real time Nexrad WX, AOPA real time flight planner, free access to DUATs at most FBO's and a whole bunch of other things that make it easy to find the information you need. I truly do not believe I could face flying in the UK again.

Not sure how the system could be fixed in the UK, it seems like control has been delegated to a bunch of faceless bureaucrats who are not accountable or elected by the people who pay their wages.

I just wish it was different, but I guess this is the reality of flying the the brave new Eurocontrol zone.

in reply to Tim CPL
 

well Tim, not much to do with my original thread, however since you mentioned the US, I may as well rant a bit, maybe aviation is better in the land of the free, lol.
However being British we are not allowed to live for longer than 6 months in the land of the free, even though, our forces are fighting alongside each other in the Middle East, We are not allowed to enter the worldwide " Green Card Lottery " to enter the land of the free, although, your welcomed with out streched arms to buy a holiday home / car / air craft. and all the associated services required to run them all, just don't stay 1 day over the 6 months, else you find out, it sure isn't the land of the free, after all.
End of Rant

Actually, Americans can't stay in the UK more than 6 months either :) It is not that difficult to get a working visa for the USA should you want to....And if you are Irish, you are automatically American....aren't you ;)