PPRuNe Forums

PPRuNe Forums (https://www.pprune.org/)
-   Private Flying (https://www.pprune.org/private-flying-63/)
-   -   Tracey Curtis-Taylor (Merged threads) (https://www.pprune.org/private-flying/579030-tracey-curtis-taylor-merged-threads.html)

Flying Lawyer 21st May 2016 20:55

Jay Sata

Most of these big adventures, that generate reams of newsprint around the world,have always been the arena where the rich and wealthy get recognition in their social circle.

In my opinion this hyper promoted woman does nothing to further GA or eliminate the public view flying light aircraft is only for the rich.
Can you post, or provide a link to, any evidence that TCT is "rich and wealthy"?
She undoubtedly raised an enormous amount of money in sponsorship ("about a £million" she said recently) and obtained other support which would have cost a fortune if she'd had to pay for it. That is very different from being personally "rich and wealthy."

Sadly this whole debacle, far from promoting women in UK general aviation, suggests again the well financed and socially connected are still the winners.
TCT was well-financed (see above) and is undoubtedly 'socially connected' now.
Can you post, or provide a link to, any evidence that she was 'socially connected' before these flights?

Compare previous reciepients of the HCAP Masters award to TCT. How on earth, if you pardon the pun, can TCT be in the same class as last years winners.
I readily understand why many people might share your view - even more so if they wrongly believe that last year's Master awarded her a Master's Medal for a 'solo' flight.

Plus (Steve Slater) is a liveryman of the HCAP and has publicly expressed doubt of the award of the Masters Medal to Tracey Curtis Taylor.
What Steve Slater actually said was:

I have reservations as to whether the Air Pilots are right in awarding her such an accolade for a ‘Feat of Navigation’.
As you are well aware, TCT was not awarded a Master's Medal for a ‘Feat of Navigation’.

I have never done, nor am I ever likely to do, any flying that would come even close to meriting any award. However, I do know a great deal about advocacy and I've watched with interest in various threads on this topic as you consistently ruin valid points by endless repetition and by introducing often silly extraneous matters.
As comedian Frank Carson used to say, "It's the way I tell 'em!"
There's another side to that coin which you illustrate well: You manage to irritate people who actually agree with your basic point.
If you could lose your chip about wealthy people (which, as far as I'm aware, TCT is not) and keep your message simple, restricting yourself to incontrovertible facts, you are far more likely to be taken seriously and not dismissed as some crank with a bee in his bonnet.


"big hotels", "high end hotels"
There you go again.
I have no idea where she stayed, but does it matter?
Should where a pilot stayed during a long international flight be a factor taken into account when deciding whether he/she deserves an award?

Dave Sykes is my nomination for a real genuine public award
What have you done about it?
It's pointless nominating him here. PPRuNe doesn't give awards.

Flying Lawyer 21st May 2016 23:07

In answer to your edited post -

I perhaps should inform you of the hard time Tracey suffered
I have never suggested that she had a hard time.

Can you explain to me how this mirrored Amy Johnson's horendous 21 day epic voyage in a pre cursor of the Tiger Moth back in 1921?
I don't think it does.
I don't know anyone who does.

As for the HCAP Masters Medal....probably now worth as much as all those old cheap gold commemorative coins peddled on daytime tv.
There you go again. :rolleyes:

And your subsequent post -

I thought she flew a Shuttleworth aircraft.
If she didn't, I stand corrected.

Now justify the award of the Bill Woodham Navigation Award to someone who only,according to ex army pilot Sam Rutherford, flew 4 out of 44 legs on her so called Aviatrix BBC programme.
Why do you ask me to do that? :confused:
I'm not a member of the organisation which gave her that award.
I'd be interested to learn how they justify it.

I have already told you, in other threads, why TCT was awarded the Master's Medal.
If you were less blinkered you might have noticed that I gave you the facts - no more, no less.

Mike Flynn 21st May 2016 23:34

Thanks for admitting she never flew a Shuttleworth aircraft. Her website claims have been clever in their wording.

The Stearman used for all her flights was housed at Shuttleworth. She obviously did fly it there but that does not give her the status of being a museum pilot.

I asked you about the LAA Bill Woodham award as I assume you know and talk to Steve Slater who is the CEO of the LAA but also a member of the HCAP? It appears you would like to know how they justified it but it appears it was awarded before the facts were known. Steve seems to agree there are issues. Can I suggest a reappraisal of the info presented to the LAA and the HCAP and you all convene before this makes the national press?

Let me ask you a direct question...do you think Tracey Curtis Taylor flew as a solo pilot the Artemis sponsored Stearman from the UK to Sydney as portrayed by the national and international press?

When you have your awards banquet later in the year will you all be happy to give this prestigious Masters Medal to someone who clearly had another person on board as depicted in global news pictures?

Will all of you in the HCAP agree...she deserved it?

Or will you convene and reassess the possibility you just might have been conned?

ak7274 22nd May 2016 06:11

On a lighter note........... Judith's little Jodel G-BDIH is still flying in the hand of Duncan Cotter at Full Sutton.
A bit like Trigger's brush after a couple of whoopsies, but how many of that age aren't?

Flying Lawyer 22nd May 2016 08:05

Jay Sata

The point I would make is you don't set out on a three month trip to Australia in a gas guzzling Stearman with no cash in the bank or time on your hands.
Do you really think people on an aviation website didn't already know that?
See my earlier comments about sponsorship.

I spent a decade as a BBC Radio Wales radio presenter with a daily programme during the 1980's and the miners strike.
I admit I'm flabbergasted by that.
What's happened to your communication skills since the 1980s?

I think I know a lot more about wealth or lack of it than most on here.
Perhaps. I was brought up in Wales very near the mining valleys, have a house there and visit regularly.
We disagree about the relevance of personal wealth in this context.
I have no reason to believe that TCT is personally wealthy but she is clearly extremely good at raising sponsorship.

Yes, I know Steve Slater. I haven't seen him for about 18 months and have no reason to contact him to discuss the LAA award.
I'm curious about it, not obsessed with it.

before this makes the national press?
It's taking a long time to do so, in any country. As far as I'm aware, only a small circulation media outlet in Canada has questioned the 'solo' aspects of TCT's flights. You might have had more success if you restricted yourself to incontrovertible facts, presented coherent focused arguments and avoided making unfounded assertions which are demonstrably untrue.

Let me ask you a direct question...do you think Tracey Curtis Taylor flew as a solo pilot the Artemis sponsored Stearman from the UK to Sydney as portrayed by the national and international press?
If you took the trouble to digest what people say you would not need to ask that question.
My response to you as long ago as the 29th April began with this:

I agree with you that any suggestion that it was a solo flight is very misleading.
My response to you on the 5th May included this:

You have made your point that TCT's flight was not solo in any sensible meaning/interpretation of that term.
No-one has disagreed with that - in either of your two other threads in this forum.
Many of us already knew.

When you have your awards banquet later in the year will you all be happy to give this prestigious Masters Medal to someone who clearly had another person on board as depicted in global news pictures?
I told you on the 29th April:

The Honourable Company of Air Pilots has awarded her the Master's Medal (which will be presented in October) for highlighting women in aviation and encouraging girls/young women to pursue their aspirations even if they seem to be beyond reach. I don't remember the precise words but that is the gist.
The Court (governing body) of the Air Pilots was fully aware that it was not a solo flight when it ratified the (then) Master's decision.


On a lighter note........... Judith's little Jodel G-BDIH is still flying.
That's good.
The (leased) C210 in which she set/broke so many records in 1980 was destroyed just a few years later.

B Fraser 22nd May 2016 08:48

Mr Lawyer sir,

I appreciate you responding on an open forum which is quickly turning into a lion's den. As a point of reference, we both know one woman who is a helicopter pilot and it is a privilege to count her as a friend. Another woman was my main instructor and she now has a very successful career flying what could be argued to be one of the most iconic routes in commercial aviation. Today, these are very normal situations so I question the need to call out any achievement where the possession of a pair of ovaries is a deciding factor.

Getting back to the point, it appears that TCT's endeavour in highlighting women in aviation is not all that it seems. Would you not agree that taking along a qualified pilot in the front cockpit plus a number of men in a second aircraft rather detracts from demonstrating that women can fly solo for long distances ? A team effort of getting a biplane half way around the world is an achievement but in my view, does not merit any award.

Flying Lawyer 22nd May 2016 09:10

Would you not agree that taking along a qualified pilot in the front cockpit plus a number of men in a second aircraft rather detracts from demonstrating that women can fly solo for long distances?
Not that it needed demonstrating. Several women have already done so - solo in every sense. (And pre GPS.) Some of them have been mentioned in this thread.

In the various threads on this topic, I have explained the rationale behind the Air Pilots' award, and corrected some of Jay Sata's absurd claims about the organisation.
I haven't expressed any opinion either way about the award, and won't.

mikehallam 22nd May 2016 09:54

I suspect F.L. is helping by saying two things.

Make your points accurately and succinctly, so as -

a) Not to bring your own views into disrepute.


b) Not to lay yourself open to a libel action from rich & powerful folk.

mike hallam

nigelthepilot 23rd May 2016 07:01

Originally Posted by Marchettiman (Post 9383971)
And don't forget Judith Chisholm who in 1980 took the solo London-Australia record (held by Jean Batten since 1934) in a single engined Cessna 210T which she dry leased never even thinking to claim it was hers'. She continued around the world setting many more records, a number of which still stand. www.youtube.com/watch?v=cz9LdBC0ddE

Both Sheila Scott and Judith Chisholm flew SOLO, as did their pioneering predecessors, and without extensive and expensive accompanying technical support and publicity machines. In my view both of these ladies genuinely deserved the many accolades they received from society and their peers in the aviation community. They are the true inspiration to future female pilots and would have continued to be so had they both not succumbed prematurely to cancer.

Thank you, Marchettiman, for mentioning Judith Chisholm. With just about every other female flyer being mentioned whenever the press, both aviation and public, talks about women pilots, she seems to have been airbrushed from aviation history. Her achievements were astounding, not the least of which was using a roll of paper around two dowels with her entire route drawn on it which, as the flight proceeded, she unrolled from one dowel to the other.
If anyone feels like sharing any memories of this remarkable woman with me I'd love to hear from you. My email is [email protected] which perhaps is better to use than clogging up the forum.
Nigel (Stokes)

Kr2 worldtour 23rd May 2016 13:16

Biplane adventurer Tracey Curtis-Taylor crashes in Arizona desert - BBC News

Two things that I found strange? How did the plane get to America, last time I heard it was in Australia. Don't answer that I know it was in a container. So its not really flying around the world and who was flying the plane when they had the power loss.

I know its just sour grapes, but still.

About GPS use. I know it has taken the challenge out of Navigation, but on the way to Australia our plane had a range of about 360 sm and we had to do a flight to a tiny atol in the Timor Sea about 1,000 meter long 400 meters wide. Traughton island, there was a runway on it and more fuel. It was 320 from Timor. We could not have been sure of making the flight without the GPS on board. So it takes away the challenge of Navigation, but opens up the opportunities to fly small aircraft around the world with little budget. We wouldn't have left home without the GPS, because we couldn't have got to Australia.

I've written an article in the June addition of Pilot about touring and all the misconceptions of planning and costs. Blag a copy and have a read.

Colin H.

KR2 World Tour

Flying Lawyer 23rd May 2016 18:21


I agree entirely with your comments about Judith Chisholm. I have no idea why that is.

London 18 Nov 1980
Cyprus 19 Nov
Sri Lanka 20 Nov
Jakarta 21 Nov
Port Hedland, WA 22-23 Nov
Sydney 24-25 Nov
Auckland 26-28 Nov (Where she was welcomed on arrival by the great Jean Batten, whose record she had broken.)
Honolulu, 29-30 Nov
San Francisco, 1 Dec
Winnipeg, 2 Dec
Goose Bay, 2 Dec
London 3 Dec

All solo.

Judith died in 1988, just a few days after her 41st birthday.
I don't know if it's available on the net but you may be interested in 'Stardust: Judith Margaret Chisholm - A Memoir' written by Judith's mother Audrey Lowe, circa 2000. I would have offered to lend you my copy but I lent it to someone years ago, haven't seen it since and can't now remember who it was.
Marchettiman is only an occasional visitor to PPRuNe. I'll pass on your message. He knew Judith far better than I did.

mike hallam

You can lead a horse to water ………. ;)

Chris Royle 23rd May 2016 18:33

What my chum Nigel omitted to say was that he was the custodian of G-BDIH for many, many years after Judith died, culminating in a total rebuild about 7 years ago. (See G-INFO for a couple of nice photos).
Ownership has now passed to a gentleman in Yorkshire who no doubt is very pleased with this delightful aeroplane.
Best wishes,

mary meagher 23rd May 2016 20:24

offensive remarks-
Okay guys, let me first set out my credentials. I am NOT an "aviatrix", I am a pilot. Been flying since 1983; with 1,400 hours power and an IR, and tug pilot; and 1,800 hours in gliders, flying as an instructor and in competition, and managed to achieve 3 diamonds in a Single Seat pegasus glider (nobody hiding in there!), with a distance of 511 kilometers, staying airborne and finishing the task in 8 hours and 53 minutes. And in Scotland, the gain of height from low point of 20,300 feet. Try that without an engine, you numpties!

For B. Fraser to call attention to women posessing a pair of ovaries is in very poor taste. Does he flaunt his equipment to prove his gender? I would be happy to see that thoughtless remark eliminated.

I have included a brief history of six amazing women.

Sophie Blanchard had to carry on flying her husband's hydrogen balloon after he died of a heart attack in Paris in 1809. She flew display solo for ten years before fireworks set fire to the hydrogen.

Harriet Quimby was the first woman to gain a US pilot's license, and the first woman to fly SOLO across the English Channel.

Amy Johnson flew SOLO (and there are photos to prove it!) in her Gypsy Moth from Croydon, leaving the 5th of May and arriving in Darwin Australia on May 24. She flew warplane deliveries for the ATA, but did not survive the war.

Ann Welch, OBE, flew routine deliveries for the ATA of Hurricanes, Spitfires, and Blenhiem Bombers. She married and raised two daughters while engaged in this service....then went on to organising the London Gliding Club, and Lasham, and also was key in building a framework for the development of flexwing personal aircraft in the UK. She died in 2002.

Marina Raskova, Antonov Record Holder, organised the Nachthexten, regiments of Soviet women pilots who were given very ancient fighter planes to fly over German camps and drop the bomb load to spoil their rest....only two very small bombs could be carried! but the invaders didn't like it

and Hanna Reitsch, the first female helicopter pilot, displayed the new heli regularly every day for three weeks at the International Auto Show, INSIDE the exhibition hall. She was also the first woman to fly jets, the ME262 and HE162. She also was the only test pilot light enough to test the V-1 rocket.
She survived the war.

Genghis the Engineer 23rd May 2016 22:35

Harriet Quimby's Channel Crossing largely went unremarked, as unfortunately the Titanic sank the previous day, which rather dominated the headlines.

I had the privilege of knowing Ann Welch quite well for the last 10ish years of her life - she was, and remains, an enormous inspiration to me personally. One of the things that few knew about her (and Ann doubtless never saw it as anything special) is that she was one of the greatest polymaths I have ever met. Aside from her aviation achievements, and management achievements, she was also a highly accomplished artist, and she was a highly successful published author, and she tutored writing at the local college, and she was a highly regarded naturalist.

One of many AW stories - the supply is near endless. When she was president of FAI, she was off to a meeting in Europe somewhere, flying on a scheduled airliner. She asked one of the cabin crew, if she could have a cockpit visit - giving her name and saying she was very interested in aviation (now there's an understatement, if ever there was one). The stewardess went off to the cockpit bemused by this request from a rather elderly lady. She came back looking extremely impressed - "Mrs Welch, the Captain sends his compliments, and if you wouldn't mind his thanking you in person for his first flying lesson in a glider when he was 16, you'd be welcome to spend the rest of the flight in the cockpit jumpseat".

Eric Brown once described Hanna Reitsch in my hearing with the phrase "brilliant pilot, dreadful woman".


flybymike 23rd May 2016 22:39

Fascinating interviews with Hanna Reitch here.

Kr2 worldtour 23rd May 2016 22:44

Solo around the world flight.
On a lighter note and to jump on the bandwagon, does this mean my solo, budget around the world flight is not solo either? Dam!



Genghis the Engineer 23rd May 2016 23:20

As everybody knows you can't actually get two people in a KR2 with more than three instruments in it - I reckon you're on safe ground there old boy.


Senior Pilot 23rd May 2016 23:51

Agreeing with each other on PPRuNe isnít going to achieve anything.

Writing to the Master, asking why someone who has made false claims about flying solo should be honoured by an Honourable Company might.

Attaching the photograph of her speaking in Seattle would make the point very clearly.

Captain Peter Benn
Honourable Company of Air Pilots
Cobham House
9 Warwick Court
Gray's Inn
London WC1R 5DJ

Or email to Captain Peter Benn: [email protected]

megan 24th May 2016 01:07

Thanks for the heads up on Judith Chisholm, must confess not familiar with the Lady. She certainly didn't waste any time on her round the world FL.


B Fraser 24th May 2016 07:38


My comment was not intended to cause offence, only to point out that in this day and age we thankfully live in a liberal democracy and the possession of a bumpy chest is irrelevant. The individual is important and not their chromosomes. It doesn't matter if their gonads are tucked away or hang outside. Your posting underlines my point very well in that women have achieved a great deal without their gender being a factor. I would add Lettice Curtis to your list. An awesome individual who happened to be a woman but had her achievements been completed in the modern era, I would not consider her gender to have had any relevance. You may well disagree but I think that a meaningful goal for feminism is for gender not to be counted when handing out praise. The measure of a liberal democracy is that we should all be judged equally and not on our skin colour, favourite sky pixie or who / what you take to bed.

That equal judgement extends to the definitions of "alone" and "solo flying". It would be interesting to see TCT's log book and if "Solo" was entered against the flights.

All times are GMT. The time now is 23:01.

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.