arrogance
 

I am a Brit who lives and flies in France. In my view one of the best places for GA in the world. I am sorry to say that the greatest danger one is faced with are arrogant Brits.

You see, they continue to land at airfields where there is no English service. This is fine if they could speak French, but mostly they cannot. On landing, even after nearly causing a near miss they continue to believe that English is the 'universal aviation language' and it is their right to land wherever they wish.

If French pilots wish to fly abroad, they have to pass a quite hard English exam. Being bi-lingual, I give courses at several flying clubs.

May I remind Brit flyers that they can only land at airfields with English service unless they are sufficiently proficient in French to make and understand radio calls. These days, things are being hardened up and if any Brit arrives illegally, they are quite likely to be given a French test which if they fail, a large fine ensues.

We welcome foreign flyers provided that they do not present a serious threat to local air users. We are fed up with finding G reg planes flying circuits in opposite direction and ignoring local traffic in circuit.

Isn't it an ICAO requirement to speak English? If so then maybe it's not the Brits who are being arrogant...

HTC

Maybe they are suffering from ADHD, seems to be quite common with pilots... well so we're told on some forums !

You're right, English is the 'universal aviation language', but still no excuse for landing and not being able to chat the local lingo !.. Imagine trying to order a burger and them not knowing what one is saying... I suppose we could always make a "Moo" sound.

NOT at an aerodrome which is clearly marked in all the flight guides and in the French AIS as "Francais Seulement/French Only" You are expected to make all calls in French at such aerodromes.

Generally, aerodromes with full ATC will speak English. Those with A/G will require you to speak french.

This is unfortunately not limited to Brits though. There was a guy on Saturday poling around near Bordeaux making calls in Spanish....My French friends at the aeroclub noted ironicly that if he was speaking English at least I could have done an impromptu translation for everyone....:suspect:

A lot of the smaller French airfields will only speak French to you, but you'll have studied the AIS info for the airfield before the flight and already know that before departure, right?

According to ICAO the language used shall be the language of the ground station or English.

To comply with that ICAO requirement, International French Airports can use English in R/T if required. The rest of the time they can use the local Language.

Pilots visiting France should remember tat there is an ICAO requirement for "Language Proficiency" and not "English Language Proficiency". That means when flying to an aerodrome where the Language for R/T is French Only then the Pilot needs to hold a French Language Proficiency Certificate to use the radio.

Ask a Non-Enbglish speaking pilot to show you their licence - they will have language proficiency in both Local language and English.

Viv le difFrance,

Brendan

"Isn't it an ICAO requirement to speak English"

I rest my case.... It is a requirement to speak English for all pilots who fly outside of their own country and of course those who fly in countries where English is the local language.

I would have thought that those who subscribe to this forum had at least a modicum of airlaw but it would appear not to be the case.

Those who do not respect the rules of flying abroad in countries who have different native tongues deserve all they get and I just hope ytou do not take any local flyers with you.

Recently I met a G reg Bonanza who landed at the wrong end of Quiberon because he could not understand the French calls. Sadly it was I who had to abort my approach.

arrogant even in this forum and typical responses of Brit flyers overseas

I will not bother again to warn you

Not at airfields with "FR only" on their AIS entries. Some, such as Perigeux, will switch to English on demand, but be French only during the ATC lunch breaks. I'm surprised anyone would venture into France without reading up on their rules and regs.

It was a simply question! As someone who has never flown in France and probably never will I haven't bothered to check what the requirements are their. And when I took my airlaw I don't think languages were mentioned - but it was over 13 years ago.

Thank you for a polite explanation Brendan :ok:

HTC

If flying from the UK to France, the flight must land at an International airport i.e. one with Customs. All such airports have ATC which must be able to speak English.

After that, if doing internal flights, one can encounter airports which are non-international and there one needs to speak French.

This is why I avoid non-international airports, everywhere outside the UK :)

At non controlled airfields the French use a common frequency 123.5. Pilots should prefix their calls with airfield they are intending to use, and listen out for calls from traffic at that airfield. That way you get situation awareness long before arriving, and so should know wx, cct direction, r/w in use etc. To just barge in blind and do some idiotic British OHJ is at best rude, at worst suicidal. Of course you must have adequate French knowledge, or stay away. :hmm:

In your initial post you make a good point, and it is one that we Brits should take seriously.

However, as well as your advice, thank you for also providing a handy example of "arrogance" to help with our understanding of the definition of same.

"However, as well as your advice, thank you for also providing a handy example of "arrogance" to help with our understanding of the definition of same. "

Point taken but perhaps it is indicative of the intense frustration we have due to this issue.

I work an English service for our local airfield during summer when I am not flying myself. This concludes 12.00 hrs Sunday. After this time, the Brits just do not use our frequencies and land anyway. In 2009, we have had 9 near mid air collisions.

We now call the police and push for prosecution.

It is only luck that there have not been more fatalities

I would remind Brit flyers that it is the responsibility of the captain to ensure that they are knowledgable in air law when travelling abroad...it is not the responsibility of the host.

The constant repetition of "English is the international aviation language" has become more than just a mild irritant.

S'ils parlent lentement et clair pas probleme!:hmm:

Abbeville?
Amiens?

glasairflyer, you are absolutely correct. 20 years ago I did exactly what you warn against, insufficient french to understand what the local traffic was saying, and ended up nose to nose with a Cessna. I saw him and avoided him and frightened him badly, met him on the ground and made abject apology, and received a friendly briefing on the useful terms.

When in Rome.....

Unfortunately, pig**** thick digi-yoof of today has never seen the need to learn a 'foreign' language. Largely due to it's habit of holidaying anywhere it can ask for "Beer and burger, Manuel" and not be served a piano and a small horse.

Surely it is only politeness, regardless of the rules, to make an attempt to converse in the local language. I don't think that "'allo, allo, je suis Golf Alfa Good Moaning, un Pay Ahh Vingt Huit de Calais a votre place de vol" is quite sufficient, but perhaps better than rien?

Top tip - arrive at lunchtime, roughly 1130-1530. Because during la bouffe, there is bugger all likelihood of any leetle froggy fellow being at the microphone when he could be stuffing his face with steak frites!

Don't do what a chum once did at Abbeville. "It is nice to be here, my father used to fly here", he said. "Vraiment? Quand?" asked the official whilst wiping the lunch from his moustache. "Oh, he flew the Hundert Neun from here in 1940....."
"I wish to see your CofA, aircraft radio licence, VAT certificate, interception procedures.........."

Oops!

While we are at it, information services such as Paris Information are for giving INFORMATION. They are not the least interested or wish to be told position, course, squawk, altitude etc etc etc that Brit flyers always want to tell them!

While I have every sympathy with you appeal against arrogant Brits, the above is not strictly correct.

AIC 2005_07 says:

CONDITIONS TO BE FULFILLED TO BENEFIT FROM THE ADDITIONAL INFORMATION PROVIDED AS PART OF
THE FLIGHT INFORMATION SERVICE WITH RADAR VISUALIZATION
In order to benefit from flight information provided by the FIC with radar visualization the following conditions apply:
• the aircraft must be equipped with a transponder mode A + C (or mode S level 2 at least) with alticoder,
• the pilot flying under VFR must:
- At the first contact transmit to the FIC all flight data necessary for the supply of flight information with radar
visualization to operate in the FIC area. This particularly includes the call sign, type of aircraft as well as the aero-
drome of departure and arrival;

I would have thought that giving position and altitude were obviously necessary to receive a radar service.

I have to say, It really is fun being lectured on arrogance by a frenchman. Quite delicious....:}

Quiberon
 

Drove there in the summer and spent a very pleasant hour in the sun outside the bar watching aeroplanes come and go. Cheapest beer in Brittany :ok:

wsmempson: You didn't read the first line of his first post, did you? :}

Fly in France

Check out this site before you even think of flying to a local French airfield. :)

Indeed, it would appear so.

The OP is a Brit living in France. Hence, you can forgive him for being a bit grumpy.

If we're talking arrogance in flying then let's not forget the near ubiquitous use of French on the R/T by French airline pilots flying into CDG and their ATC colleagues, meaning all foreign airline pilots have not a clue what they are saying.

Set against that the odd monoglot Brit bimbling into a pissy little grass strip with bugger-all traffic doesn't look so bad, does it?

I have always assumed that the amount of French one would need to be proficient at, in order to conduct operations in and out of a small French airfield, would be not very much. The amount of English used to converse with English A/G stations is, after all, minimal. I would have thought that if you knew your numbers, and things like "runway" "left" and "right", and a few other likely words, you'd be most of the way there.

Ou Non?

The problem for many Brits is not the amount of French they can muster to get themselves in and out of the circuit, but understanding the locals on the radio, especially if the airfield is on 123.5.
It's one thing to order a meal in a restaurant, but understanding what's going on for les rosbifs, especially without the benefit of face to face communication, becomes too much for some.

The French have every right to expect the courtesy of French where it is published to be in use.

I think you've identified a perfect enhancement for the next version of your product there, Tim - "SkyBabel" - a high performance translator for aviation terms, wired into the navigation software - as soon as "Flight" senses you're approaching a non-English airport, a set of menus offering two-way translation of the most likely phrases pops up in the Windows Mobile device, together with a list of contact numbers for legal advice.

You could make an absolute killing with that - especially for the non-English speakers wanting to operate in the UK.

Bags I you let me define the French -> English translation terms though....because you can then look forward to a horde of French accents explaining to London Information that their "hovercrafts are full of eels", just before their "nipples explode with delight".

See my post above!

Warning

If you don't speak French, there is no way you can learn it, even aeronautical French, on this web page. Knowing a word doesn't mean that you'll be able to understand it when it is yelled on the radio, or that you'll even be able to express yourself so that other pilots will be able to understand what you say. Don't cheat with yourself, with your safety and with other's safety. If you don't speak French, don't use airfields where radio is mandatory and radio in French only is allowed. Unfortunately, this represents most of our airfields. See the Airportspagefor more details.
If you speak French fluently, it is up to you to decide whether or not you feel confident enough to venture into r/t in French. Again, don't cheat with yourself, and in case you doubt, don't do it. To test your ability, 3 ways in this page. You just need a Real Player for that. The player is downloadable for free, clicking here : http://flyinfrance.free.fr/radio/getfree.jpg

Hang on, just a cotton-picking minute.

If you're about to tell us Welsh airfields are also declaring a "French-only" policy, then I'm a Dutchman.

deleted: That'll larn me to read the entire bleedin' thread before hitting 'send'

Cusco:rolleyes:

Wasn't it the french president who said "every frenchman has a god given right to speak french when in france"? This was a well constructed argument when the Air France pilots started refusing to reply in french to a french controller, when given an instruction in french.

The result was several near misses at CDG (which I suspect would have killed more than the 9 in your local field). I personally saw one of these, AF lined up with an Aeroflot on finals at 100-200'. Thanks to the quick reactions of the IL76 pilots they got away with it. The Aeroflot crew then ignored all subsequent transmissions from tower, flew a tight circuit and landed.

There is no substitute for looking out the darn window no matter what language you're using. Personally I enjoy flying non-radio. It avoids having to speak to arrogant people - like french controllers.

Oh go on, tell us what you deleted! Si vous plait?:ok:

He unwisely said he likes to dress up as a Frenchwoman and talk in sultry, alluring tones on the radio to unsuspecting Englishmen.

Probably.

I flew down to St Omer for the Jodel fly in (but we were in a C172) this year, and thankfully, through a modicum of French at school and a cheat sheet, we had no problem making the calls or understanding the basics of others in the circuit along with a very very very good lookout. Although that was pre-arranged, and there were a large number of UK flyers coming in for the event.

However, on the way back across the channel there were a couple of French pilots whose RT was absolutely disgraceful to the point the very busy ATC chap told one of them to just shut up until he called them again - didn't work and he stepped over another 4 people in succession (after doing it 3 times already).

Goes both ways...

The notion that I should be fluent in French to fly to a small French airfield is rubbish. There are plenty of pilots I've heard on the radio in England with poor English. These are both PPLs and ATPLs (probably doing their IRs). Air traffic controllers slow down and make extra effort to be clear, to accommodate these poor English skills, and so do I, as another pilot on frequency who wants to make sure I'm understood too. At the end of the day, they know enough to get by, and they'll improve.

I see no reason why the same accommodation wouldn't be made in France.

Then again it's a well-known fact that if you speak English only LOUDER they're more likely to understand. BREAD! I want some BREAD!

In the summer months, I am increasingly finding myself using French to talk to my family in Supermarkets due to the embarassement factor of the odd "Brit Abroard" charachter wandering around talking loudly, so I try to go incognito...:rolleyes:

Guys, Please dont make me have to pretend to be French in the air?

Our aeroclub is a typically friendly french affair, especially to visiting Brits, possibly due to myself being in residence and the couple living there having served several exchange postings in the UK with the FAF. But I must say, that in the last couple of years there have been a few incidents which raised eyebrows at the club, and the following stick out in my mind as they caused much hilarity st the club....

...like the guy that attempted to land a PA-28R on the 5m x 100m Aeromodellers runway (he actually touched down!!:ooh:) instead of our 900mx30m grass runway the other side of the ditch - how do you do that if you have looked at the airfield plate!!:ugh: ......And the gaggle of microlighters which pitched up and caused havoc in the circuit & parking on the ground, then asked if there was a chateaux close by they could visit - a club member offered to show them around his place, offered wine tasting, gave lifts to hotels etc., and none of the dozen of them bought even one bottle of wine (that is the height of faux pas around here!!:eek:) off of the guy.

And honestly, I think the Wine rejection raised many more eyebrows than the PA28 incident!!!!:}

OK, Maybe the initial poster was a bit harsh, but in all seriousness, British pilots dont want to start getting a bad rep here in france like some other sections of the "great" British public when abroard, do they?

You definitely DONT need to be fluent in French to visit the smaller French only airfields here. But please read the airfield plate and make calls saying who and where you are, and what you are doing, in French!! If the frequency is busy, how about trying to figure out what is going on before just blundering into the circuit with a OHJ? If you wouldnt do it in the UK, why do it abroard?

And finally, if you do F*ck up, for godsake say sorry !!!

Mostly with american accents??

It's so easy to feel considerable sympathy for the OP's point.

Except that I then wonder if I am supposed to learn German to fly over the border to there, Switzer-Deutsch for then a lunch stop in Basel, Flemmish for a stop in Belgium on the way home.

I work in aviation, and I travel a lot - this year clocking up 8 countries, in all of which I was working at airports. Aside from my native English, and reasonable French, which other languages should I start on? And where should I compromise my other skills currency to concentrate on languages.

My parallel, I was working in Switzerland this year for a while, and having some reputation in Jiu Jitsu I was asked to go and do some teaching at a local club, which I did.

Did I do this in Switzer-Deutsch? - no, I don't speak it. Did I use English? - no, most of them didn't speak it. I taught in (very limited!) Japanese, which worked fine.

I suspect that if I was a professional chef, I'd probably travel the world working in French.


The fact is, fields need common languages - constrained almost certainly to a narrow vocabulary - but it needs them anyhow. In aviation, it does seem to be English.

Yes, I'll make an effort when I fly to France to know French RT calls, and not to screw up - but it's wrong that this should be necessary.

G