Aircraft - buying my first one..

[Wide-Body]

Hi Whirlybird

Quote

"Makes perfect sense to me. There's absolutely no way I would buy an aircraft where I had to make sure my passenger got out before I could, in an emergency.""

I would like to think that I would ALWAYS get out with or after the passenger. I guess that it's just my silly duty of care feeling I have as a pilot in command.


Regards

Wide

[Chimbu chuckles]

TFR my Bonanza is a 4+2.

Hairyplane...my 300HP IO550b gives me 3.11 nm/liter in cruise while your getting 3.29nm/liter....I would suggest if you use the mixture for what it's designed for you might get that 6hr/750nm with reserves

Let's get real people...SE retractable gear/constant speed prop is only complicated for morons!!!

Chuck.

[A and C]

DR400

The Robin DR400 takes a lot of beating when it comes to the speed vs range vs paylaod vs expence.

The fact is that each time I look at changing the Robin for a new aircraft I cant find one that can beat the overall performance of the Robin.

The only thing that the Robin wont take to is being left out in the rain so a hangar in the UK is a must but the paint finnish will last twice as long ( on any aircaft ) when hangerd so its not all bad !.

As for the Beech aircraft I think that this is a step to far in terms of expence for a "first " aircraft .

The last thing that I would remind you of is that " all aircraft bite fools !".

[The Phoenix Rises]

Hi Flyboy-F33:

I'm now on my second plane a Bonanza F33, my first was an early arrow1, There is absolutely no comparison between the two in any way whatsoever.

I would say if you can afford it, buy a complex type. You will soon get bored in an Archer, they are just not fast enough for serious touring. Two friends of mine recenltly purchased a Trinidad and a Tobago respectively (both new). I should say TB200, The guy with the fixed gear is now regretting his expensive mistake as the depreciation will not really allow him to sell it for some years yet. on the other hand, the guy with the Trinidad has now comfortably learned to handle the extra performance and loves it.

As for running costs, you should allow 10% of the purchase price to put things right in the first year or two, thereafter, if you fly around 100 hours per year your budget is going to be in the region of £10 - £15K which include fuel.

I think £3500k finders fee is extortionate. I'll do it for £2k!!

Mail me if you need any more tips.

GG

Thanks, I'll take you up on that. As for the fee - I've taken the advice of folks here and cancelled the offer from the aero club re the £3.5k finders fee. I'll look myself, at least for a while...

TP

Hi evo:

The N-reg planes, does that mean the prices tend to be higher?

As I say, my real plan, when the bad weather sets in, is to be further south for that 1/4 of the year. But, the weather is surely going to be a problem, and so an IR makes sense...

TP

Hi Hairyplane:

First, I am not a girl, so hugs are definitely out!

The stats are impressive. What do I have to pay for a reasonable 2nd/h (or previously owned as our US friends say!) one? I am picking up all the magazines today so will start a search in the classifieds.

Thanks for the offer to try yours, that's really kind and would be great! I don't know about a new one though - price again?

TP




Folks:

What about the safety record for some of these planes? Are there any stats on that? And I would still like to track done a book that compares the various types of aircraft...

Thanks.

TP

[Evo]

The N-reg planes, does that mean the prices tend to be higher?

As I say, my real plan, when the bad weather sets in, is to be further south for that 1/4 of the year. But, the weather is surely going to be a problem, and so an IR makes sense...

I really don't know. There are some advantages and some 'issues' regarding N-reg ownership, so I couldn't guess what effect it would have on price. You can always convert a G-reg to N-reg in the future (I know that Keef is considering doing this, maybe he can advise?).

The real issue here is that if you get an FAA IR you need to be flying a N-reg aeroplane to use the IR to the full (e.g. access to class-A airspace and the ability to fly IFR abroad). Somehow painting a 'G' on the side of your aeroplane turns you from a trained, competent instrument-rated pilot into a dangerous buffoon...

Oh, and I agree with Hairyplane, the Robin is an excellent aeroplane. The TB-20 is rather nice too

[The Phoenix Rises]

Hi drauk:

I've not flown a Robin, but I have been told that you need to keep them in a hangar, due to their construction. If you are planning to travel with the plane alot are you confident that you'll generally have hangar space available?

Ah. No, I won't. Probably when I'm in the UK; but abroad, no... Hairyplane - got any comments on that?

TP




Hi flyingfemme:

Thanks a lot for the comments. No, I am not going to rush into anything.

How much is insurance going to be for someone like me?! I have the name of a leasing company and I was going to talk to them today...

TP



Hi A and C:

The Robin DR400 takes a lot of beating when it comes to the speed vs range vs paylaod vs expence.

The fact is that each time I look at changing the Robin for a new aircraft I cant find one that can beat the overall performance of the Robin.

The only thing that the Robin wont take to is being left out in the rain so a hangar in the UK is a must but the paint finnish will last twice as long ( on any aircaft ) when hangerd so its not all bad !.

As for the Beech aircraft I think that this is a step to far in terms of expence for a "first " aircraft .

The last thing that I would remind you of is that " all aircraft bite fools !".

I'm not sure I can hangar it in Europe...

I have no intention of being bitten...(!) If I can help it, that is. The good advice I am getting here ought to help me a lot in that regards...

TP

[Hairyplane]

Robins outside

For a start - it is sensible to hangar any aircraft - wooden or otherwise.

You'd certainly want to garage a £125k car wouldn't you!

I have a full set of Cambrai touring covers. They take up very little room in the aircraft - they come in ther own custom-made bags.

I also reckon that you should protect any aircraft from UV as well the rain.

My paint still looks like brand new.

I cover it inside the hangar too!

I tour extensively and can often blag my way into a hangar. Even if I do - the covers still go on inside - keeps the birs crxp and dust off.

I used to instruct on Robins. They were rarely hangared. I bumped into one of my old steeds a whle back - now with 25000 hours on it and looking gooood!

The Robin is made of Oregon Pine and plywood, covered in Dacron.

Easy to inspect, easy to repair - the airframe spares grown in the ground.

DR400 - 10 million flying hours and going strong.

Easiest aircraft you will ever fly - 22kt crosswind (max demondstrated - will cope with a lot more) - excellent brakes, ground handling etc. etc.

HP

[The Phoenix Rises]

Hi Hairyplane:

LOL! Well yes I would hangar a £125k car; but if I am in Europe or elsewhere what I mean is that, at the moment, I am not certain I will be able to hangar the plane. I had not factored that into my thinking, planning or costing...

So... from what you write... I guess - well, it's difficult for me to draw this conclusion really, but - I guess you like Robin's then...??!!

Thanks again HP.

TP

[Flyboy-F33]

Looks like we have a lot of Robin fans here....!

Two of my personal friends are airplane Mechanics, one's has as AI rating, the other, who incidently looks after my Bonanza, a senior guy with 'The Worlds Favourite Airline'. Both have advised me of serious corrosion problems with Socata models (TB20 etc)
They also tell me of the problems they regularly have with Robins.
ManY parts on Robins are fiercely over complicated (read, very expensive) like brake discs for instance. You would expect to able to use standard cleveland or similar, but NO, you have to use a specific Robin part which is 5 times the price. However, that pails into insignificance if the company goes into liquidation, which they temporarily did a few months ago. I know of one individual whos Robin was in for its annual for more than three months because they just couldnt get any spares.

Further more, any aircraft that has to be hangered is a no-no for me. Have you tried getting hangar space in Surrey or Hampshire, and then theres the hangar rash etc.

Sorry you Robin fans out there, but the only thing your Robin does better than my F33A is that it burns less fuel. But if I power back to 45% I can still do 130 kts at 9 USG/Hr.

GG

[A and C]

rose tinted glasses ?

To those of you who think that a you might have a problem with corrosion with the Robin all I have to say is "Beech spar cap AD"

If you are a Beech owner and have not seen the problem then just hope that you never do because it will cost you big bucks !.

The fact of the matter is that the DR400 will move 4 peple out of small strips at about two thirds the speed of a BE33 and at one third the cost.

I,v never had my aircraft on the ground because I cant get parts and as for the prices , Yes there are some horrror storys with Robin parts BUT there are some items that are cheap , I dont think that the parts on average are any more expencive that the normal american prices , now go check the prices of Beech items with the same sort of things on a Cessna or Piper.

Also look at the time life items like landing gear and flap gearboxes ,fuel pumps etc.

I,m not saying that the Beech is a bad aircraft , far from it I,m a big fan of the Barron but it is a lot of aircraft to haul around the sky and the fact is that as a first aircraft to own it is a big step , you can take that from someone who at the moment owns three aircraft.

As for not puting the aircraft in the hangar you are not saving any money by the time you have paid for new paint twice as often and to have the corosion fixed ( that is without the spar caps replaced ) the extra radio work due to the water that gets in and the inside trim is replaced due to damage from water leaks then you will see that a hagarage is not so expencive after all.

[Flyboy-F33]

A & C

I suggest you read the post before responding! My comment about corrosion was aimed at Socata aircraft not Robin. Are you going to deny that Socatas are prone to corrosion?

Sure I know about the Beech spar cap AD, my plane was a victim of it (at previous owners cost). And yes, Beech parts are mighty expensive but often the parts you need are things that can be sourced from other suppliers as you obviously know.

I am not suggesting that he buys a Beech as a first airplane, merely to go for a complex type if he can afford it.

On a final note, An F33A can easily get in and out of 450M grass strips (I.ve done it many times) But it will cruise at 170Kts if you want it to, it has 1100lbs of load capacity and it can be left outside. In terms of SEP's, there is nothing to beat it. (yes I know I am biased)

As an afterthought. a Vans RV7 would be a good alternative if you have a spare 1500 hours and a nice workshop.

GG

[The Phoenix Rises]

Hi Folks:

Very interesting discussion!

So, to summarise, the recommendations for a 4-seater from you folks are:

Robin DR400
Bonanza F33
TB20

with an N-reg if poss, get an IR, and Go Slowly!

I have started my search, and will try to fly each of these over the next couple of months. I have my head burried in the Trevor Thom books at the moment and can't come up for air as much as I would like, but will get out as soon as poss!

Can I open the discussion up on another subject? What about if I was to go for a 6-seater? Does anyone have any comments on that idea - not only as to the type of aircraft, but the difference in performance and costs over the 4-seater types recommended above?

It's just an idea; I think I will probably end up with a 4-seater as a first plane, but wanted to pick your brains again anyway, if I may...!

Thanks again!

TP

[flyingfemme]

Ok Phoenix - the nice people here have been giving you a view of what they like. If you are going to spend a big stack of your own money you need some slightly less personal advice.

First of all write a specification - list exactly what you want to do with the beast. How many people do you want to carry? Will they have more luggage than an overnite bag? How far do you want to go? If you go to the south of france regularly will it irritate you to do it in two hops all the time? How resilient is your bladder? Where will you be keeping/maintaining it? Will the expertise be available?

There are plenty more options in the four seater stakes that make good practical and financial sense. Nobody mentioned Cessnas - underrated and good value. What about a 177RG? Comfy, wide cabin, two doors and much more aircraft for your money than a Beech. If you have insurance issues (being low time) then a 182 may be a better option; fixed gear may lower your premiums a little.

If you are a real long-distance traveller then consider a Comanche. You can get 9 hours of fuel in a 250/260 with long-range and tip tanks. Yes, they are a little elderly but the owners club have great advice and support, you can get plenty of speed mods, many have great avionics and autopilots and they have more room than a jumbo in the back. They fly great too.

Six seaters are generally 4+2 and you trade fuel for seat capacity. Only small people need sit right in the back. Having said that you can tour with four people and lots of baggage. An A36 Bonanza will probably be out of your price range but a Cessna 210 can be great value and you might even be lucky enough to get one with boots.

So, first get your licence and then specify very carefully.

[Julian]

6 Seater I would go for a Cherokee Six.
Also would go for fixed gear as the retracts dont add that much to performance - sure they look nice but will add to your maintenance bills!

[The Phoenix Rises]

Hi flyingfemme:
Thanks for the very practical advice.

Part of the problem is that I have a very fluid situation, as they say. I am not able to be as specific as I would like at the moment, and of course the costs and performance of the various types of aircraft are going to impact on my thinking anyway. Which was one of the reasons why I put up the posting in the first place and why all of the responses here have been so helpful! I had a look at the Comanche btw, haven’t found a cost yet…



Hi Julian:
Thanks - I am thinking again about going straight to a 6-seater… I might do better in a 4-s to begin with.



TP

[IO540]

The Phoenix Rises

I fly a TB 20, and can offer the following comments/views relative to your £100k budget, not in any particular order of importance:

What is your objective? For VFR flight you could get something very good but slightly more basic in terms of avionics, leaving you more money to keep it running. Say a TB10 in good nick – hard to beat and way better than any PA28 etc. But for going places seriously you need IFR capability, decent avionics, and that makes £100k about the minimum level and this concerns me a bit because while you can get major-cost suprises at any level, they get bigger when you play with this sort of thing and the plane is out of warranty!

Will it be on a Public CofA or Private CofA, or N-reg? N-reg is probably the only realistic way if you want an IR (you go the FAA PPL/IR route). This affects the maintenance costs. What about VAT issues? Some planes are sold "plus VAT" others "VAT paid". Personal or ltd co. ownership? Mostly business travel perhaps?

The TB20 is a great plane. Fast, stable, high wing loading gives you a good ride in turbulence, barely matched load and range. The manufacturer is still in business and that's pretty rare. A great plane for going places, arguably unmatched until you get to the new technology e.g. DA40 at £150k+ or a Cirrus at a lot more.

I would avoid a 6-seater unless really necessary; there are few options about, most are either old or above your price range.

Every type of plane has a long list of problems; that's the nature of this game. Some individual specimens are worse than others, sometimes due to luck but more often due to poor treatment, but this is “Vauxhall Viva reliability” territory. I investigated this at great length, speaking to service shops etc. You should do the same. Make a list of candidate planes and ask for their views. Make sure that the plane you get can be serviced locally.

Be careful asking flying instructors. Sadly, most of them know very little about "decent" planes, having never flown one, and in any case they want you to self fly hire their stuff. I could tell you some quite appalling stories. Try to speak to experienced IR pilots who fly classy planes on business - a very different perspective. Looking back, the biggest problem I found when looking at your price level or above is that due to the mostly decrepit planes operated by most schools/clubs and the very limited experience of most instructors very few people know anything useful, and nearly all the advice I got for the "locals" was in retrospect a load of tosh. No use asking someone owning a 2CV about which Merc to buy. Ask further afield.

What will you get for the £3500? It seems a lot for an annual-equivalent inspection plus some basic paperwork. You can "find" yourself a plane easily enough; just read the various adverts around the place, do some web searches, and contact a few dealers (most new plane dealers also do used planes).

Don't let anyone tell you that a faster plane will get you into trouble faster. Some instructors offered similar patronising comments to me (having realised that I won't be self fly hiring their decrepit £120/hr offerings from their school much longer), and it is nonsense. That sort of plane will have a working autopilot, and an AP, together with better avionics e.g. a slaved HSI, reduces your cockpit workload drastically. Even without an AP I have a much lower workload now that in any C150, C152, PA38, PA28 I ever flew, with 120hrs in those. Especially in IMC. If your navigation and situational awareness are so c**p that you routinely bust CAS then 150kt is no diff to 90kt. The sort of plane you are looking at isn't flown with a compass and a stopwatch like the C150 in the PPL skills test; you have a GPS, radio nav (VOR/DME/ADF), and you don't fly along railways and wondering if such-and-such nondescript bunch of houses is one or another village. You can of course just potter around on nice days but for most flights it’s just extra work with much more scope for getting lost, so why bother? You fly it as if it was IFR.

Unlike with cars there is no obvious price level at which to get into this business because at every price you get something different.

For £100k you can get a TB20 but about 10-15 yrs old and you have to be very careful with the avionics, whose list price new is about £50k-£80k! Make sure it all works and look at service history (you may need to visit shops who serviced it years before as they like to retain the records; the owner/seller is most unlikely to have the complete service record with details of all work done no matter how small). Same applies to any £100k plane which is say £200k new.

Obviously get a full inspection done, this will cost you about £700+, by a licensed engineer of YOUR choice. Get a cylinder bore check done. I know of a plane being advertised (for a long time now, you may have seen it) which has major hidden problems.

Make sure you always have spare money for unexpected work, say £10-20k. This is true equally for a £30k PA28 but the latter won't have the avionics to go wrong.

At 140kt+, retractable gear is worth about 25% extra horsepower, or 25% less fuel, which is a lot. Hard to see in reality because there are few if any identical planes available with/without, for a direct comparison. In general you try to avoid operating any plane, esp. a retractable, from mucky grass strips esp. in freezing conditions. You can but the end result will be more maintenance in the long run. But a TB20 has a trailing link u/c which is great.

Re a TB plane, look at www.socata.org for much more info.

There are other costs, e.g. £500 for a 50hr check, £1500 for a 150hr check, £2000 for the annual, £300/mo for hangarage. All plus VAT but typical inclusive of parts. You have to allow for engine fund, prop fund and other stuff. Oh and fuel also…

It cannot be done on a shoestring, but the huge upside is that you have a great plane to fly, fast, 100% availability, maintained to YOUR standard, with a marginal (direct hourly) cost no bigger than a self fly hire C150. Great for doing a lot of flying and getting really current.

I never regret owning but this is not a game for someone who is skint!

Of course there are options for reducing the cost e.g. renting it to carefully chosen people, or setting up a group around it. All with the usual caveats...

A lot of these issues get covered, with varying degrees of accuracy, in the usual magazines, but mostly from the low end and not at the level you are looking at.

[RodgerF]

'Try to speak to experienced IR pilots who fly classy planes on business - a very different perspective.'


Another source of info where you can look is www.pplir.org. A lot of serious private IFR pilots are members, and there is a forum open to members on this site.

[The Phoenix Rises]

Hi IO540:

What a really great reply, thanks so much. I've just seen it, and as it's rather later and there is a fair amount to digest and consider, I will respond tomorrow.

Thanks again. Just great.

TP

[The Phoenix Rises]

Hi IO540:

First with regard to the price, I have set the level at £100k because I think that is a reasonable entry into this game especially when I will have just got my licence. Whatever I get, it will have to be within that level. Annual maintenance/flying costs can come on top of course.

I guess ideally it means an N-reg because I will be going for the IR; but I do not know how quickly this can be achieved after a PPL. I am still considering the concept of going in to buying a plane at a lower level, and upgrading later. That I still so not know about yet. I can only imagine that the costs of buying one and then changing later will mean a loss.

It can be either personal purchase, or I can put it through Company Books to take care of the VAT. This I presume is not such a good idea if I am going buy one and upgrade later because of the +VAT element. But I can be flexible here.

I have told the club to forget the idea of the £3.5k, I will do it myself and ultimately get the plane I choose checked thoroughly first of course.

I think what I need to do - when I come up for air from the studies for the written exams (just got HPL btw! - 1 down 6 to go) - is get out and look at some of these planes, as suggested (and kindly invited) in this thread. I must not lose the focus of the exams of course but if I can do this concurrently that will save me time later.

Thanks for the link to the site, I have looked. The sale planes all seemed to be located in the USA (they were all in dollars) but I presume that there is a healthy market for them here in the UK too. Is there a UK site do you know?

I don’t plan to buy the plan and then share it. I am browsing the mags…

Once again, thanks for the input. I really appreciate it.

TP



Hi RodgerF:

Thanks for the link. I am exploring the site…!

TP

[IO540]

Re the price, you will get something at every level, and you will get something pretty good for £100k. The main thing I would watch is the avionics, which on an IFR plane you want to be working! The panel alone in a decent IFR plane is worth a lot more than most Cessnas and PA28s you see around.

If you want an IR then (assuming a PPL) N-reg is the only realistic way. There are a number of firms who will set up the US trust for you and run it afterwards. You are then under the FAA regime; the CAA know nothing about the plane. I can't say more because I am working towards this myself and haven't yet sorted it all out. But you need at least the FAA PPL before you go to N-reg because the FAA requires that an N-reg plane is flown with an FAA License (anywhere in the world).

Personally I would get the PPL and do some 30-50hrs at least before going for the IR. But actually if I could re-run things I would have bought my present plane and did the PPL in it; the normal way (a PPL in a C152 or similar) only proves that you can drive a 2CV. Anyone with intelligence and aptitude can easily master the few extra bits in a decent plane to start with.

The ltd co. ownership issue depends on whether there will be other pilots (it should protect the owner from personal liability if someone else crashes it and the insurance doesn't pay out) and whether there will be business travel (easier to make a case if the ownership is in a company). Some owners own the plane in the business which is their main livelihood; this is good if there is a lot of business travel and should be OK if you are the only pilot! There are various angles on this one. But unless you do lots of business travel, or rent it out, you won't be able to get away with full VAT reclaim. A good accountant should offer tips here.

I don't see how magically your club could find you a plane which you could not find yourself. That proposal is bizzare, IMV. Do they think you are stupid but have lots of money?

The socata.org site is pretty international. There are a few used planes listed there but there are many more out and about, and perhaps the best ones are't advertised (yet). If you look for a TB, call Pat Patel at Air Touring and ask him if he knows of anything available. He also knows the history of most UK TBs. You will need to check out any other plane in a similar way - don't rely on the owner saying "nothing at all has gone wrong with it in the last 5 yrs".

I hope this helps. It's just my view and there are lots of other things to consider. But there aren't many planes on the market in that category that aren't too old so that will be the hardest job.