Log Book entries before licence received
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Warwickshire Fields
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Log Book entries before licence received
After my test and before receiving my licence I flew a few jollies with some instructor; how is the time recorded:
1. As P1/s - because FI signs me out
& PIC or DUAL
2. As P u/t - although training has offically ceased
Thanks
1. As P1/s - because FI signs me out
& PIC or DUAL
2. As P u/t - although training has offically ceased
Thanks
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Chichester, UK
Posts: 1,650
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If the instructor is logging P1 then you must log Pu/t. If he is just a passenger then you log P1, he logs nothing (as if! 
). Only time you can log P1/s is on your successful skills test...
edit: yes, I know there are other times he could potentially log P1/s, but they're all in two crew aeroplanes or with an examiner (not instructor) for the purposes of a flight test (e.g. IMC rating test).
). Only time you can log P1/s is on your successful skills test...edit: yes, I know there are other times he could potentially log P1/s, but they're all in two crew aeroplanes or with an examiner (not instructor) for the purposes of a flight test (e.g. IMC rating test).
Why do it if it's not fun?
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Bournemouth
Posts: 4,779
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My interpretation is exactly the same as Evo's - the only time you can log P1US on a single-pilot aircraft is for a successful skills test. However, I emphasise that this is my interpretation - the rules themselves are not entirely clear.
The information used to be in a document called GID44, and if you search these forums for GID44 you'll find lots of discussion. GID44 doesn't exist now, the regulations have been moved to LASORS instead, but the only part of LASORS I can find on-line is LAS, and the regulations you're looking for are in ORS, so unless someone can find the link you'll have to get a hard copy.
But basically, the only time P1US is mentioned for single-pilot aircraft is for a successful skills test. But it doesn't mention the word "only" and so it doesn't explicitly preclude you from logging other time as P1US. And there is nothing anywhere which describes how to log time with an instructor when you are not training for a license or a rating. Therefore, some people choose to interpret this as meaning that you can use P1US for the type of flight you're talking about, and some don't. It's all very confusing, and clarification from the CAA is long overdue.
My reason for saying this time should be logged as P1UT and not P1US is based on being conservative - certainly no one is ever going to tell you that P1UT is wrong, whereas they might tell you that P1US is wrong.
(As Evo says, the other option is for you to log P1, and your instructor doesn't log at all. If this is the case, you are in charge, and your instructor is no more entitled to tell you what to do when you're flying than any other passenger would be - although of course you might choose to use your privileges as P1 to ask him for advice. If you choose to log time in this way, it should be agreed with your instructor before the flight, IMO.)
FFF
--------------
The information used to be in a document called GID44, and if you search these forums for GID44 you'll find lots of discussion. GID44 doesn't exist now, the regulations have been moved to LASORS instead, but the only part of LASORS I can find on-line is LAS, and the regulations you're looking for are in ORS, so unless someone can find the link you'll have to get a hard copy.
But basically, the only time P1US is mentioned for single-pilot aircraft is for a successful skills test. But it doesn't mention the word "only" and so it doesn't explicitly preclude you from logging other time as P1US. And there is nothing anywhere which describes how to log time with an instructor when you are not training for a license or a rating. Therefore, some people choose to interpret this as meaning that you can use P1US for the type of flight you're talking about, and some don't. It's all very confusing, and clarification from the CAA is long overdue.
My reason for saying this time should be logged as P1UT and not P1US is based on being conservative - certainly no one is ever going to tell you that P1UT is wrong, whereas they might tell you that P1US is wrong.
(As Evo says, the other option is for you to log P1, and your instructor doesn't log at all. If this is the case, you are in charge, and your instructor is no more entitled to tell you what to do when you're flying than any other passenger would be - although of course you might choose to use your privileges as P1 to ask him for advice. If you choose to log time in this way, it should be agreed with your instructor before the flight, IMO.)
FFF
--------------
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: S Warwickshire
Posts: 1,214
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I agree with most of the above. The only proviso is until you have the licence you cannot take passengers, even if that passenger is a pilot or instructor.
So an instructor can authorise the flight as a student supervised solo, or can be on board in the role of instructor. So PIC in one case or Pu/t in the other.
It does make sense to me that if an instructor is there purely in a supervisory role (as in a successful club check flight) with no intention to instruct, then it should be P1S for the pilot and SNY for the instructor. If the instructor intervenes then it would become Pu/t.
This option though doesn't appear to be sanctioned in the JAA definition.
So an instructor can authorise the flight as a student supervised solo, or can be on board in the role of instructor. So PIC in one case or Pu/t in the other.
It does make sense to me that if an instructor is there purely in a supervisory role (as in a successful club check flight) with no intention to instruct, then it should be P1S for the pilot and SNY for the instructor. If the instructor intervenes then it would become Pu/t.
This option though doesn't appear to be sanctioned in the JAA definition.
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Chichester, UK
Posts: 1,650
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RodgerF is quite right; Pu/t is your only option. However, FFF said
I wish these things were clearer. Ignoring multi-crew time, the "logging of flight time" bit in LASORS only allows you to log PIC U/S when you do a successful flight test with an authorized examiner. That implicitly stops you from ever logging PIC U/S with a plain-vanilla instructor (for example, a club checkout flight). If you're with an examiner, they should know if it's a flight test or not.. 
I agree that there are situations in which PIC U/S makes sense - the club checkout is one, but when would an instructor ever settle for SNY when they could have P1? I bet there would always be a reason to take control. At the end of the day I believe that the CAA count PIC U/S as P U/T for the purposes of licence issue, so I guess we shouldn't care
so it doesn't explicitly preclude you from logging other time as P1US
I agree that there are situations in which PIC U/S makes sense - the club checkout is one, but when would an instructor ever settle for SNY when they could have P1?
I bet there would always be a reason to take control. At the end of the day I believe that the CAA count PIC U/S as P U/T for the purposes of licence issue, so I guess we shouldn't care
Why do it if it's not fun?
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Bournemouth
Posts: 4,779
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The only proviso is until you have the licence you cannot take passengers, even if that passenger is a pilot or instructor
FFF
--------------
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Somewhere In The South China Sea
Posts: 960
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am waiting for my licence, so if an instructor signs me out, and I fly 'on my own' without him in the cockpit is this P1? what about QCC time etc? or am I off topic now?
D.
D.
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Chichester, UK
Posts: 1,650
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes - if you're on your own then it's P1. QCC - as in qualifying cross country? Um, unless I'm missing the point that should have been part of the 10 hours P1 needed for PPL issue...
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Somewhere In The South China Sea
Posts: 960
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
as I thought,
I didnt quite fully read all the posts, the question was basically how does the pilots log flight time if a FI is on board the plane in the interim between passing GFT and licence issue, and not if he wasnt there
I didnt quite fully read all the posts, the question was basically how does the pilots log flight time if a FI is on board the plane in the interim between passing GFT and licence issue, and not if he wasnt there
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: uk
Posts: 190
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A slightly different question, and sorry in advance if it sounds a bit silly....
Can you log as P2 in a single engine aircraft, if for example, you go on a trip with a pal and you are both licensed?
When your pal acts as P1, can you log as P2 if, for example, you do the radio and do a bit of navigation, if, in one word, you just do not sit about!??.....
I have heard vaguely that it was not feasible, but I would like to get your opinion.
Cheers
Can you log as P2 in a single engine aircraft, if for example, you go on a trip with a pal and you are both licensed?
When your pal acts as P1, can you log as P2 if, for example, you do the radio and do a bit of navigation, if, in one word, you just do not sit about!??.....
I have heard vaguely that it was not feasible, but I would like to get your opinion.
Cheers
Join Date: May 2001
Location: 75N 16E
Age: 54
Posts: 4,729
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I was told recently on a checkout for a syndicate that I could log P1/US for the flight......Though I guess the guy was an examiner anyway so that is probably how it worked.
If you do a syndicate checkout with another PPL then I guess they log P1 and you don't log....
As far as flying with your mates, you can both log PIC for the portion you are sole manipulator of the controls, so if half way through a leg you decide you've had enough and pass control to you mate, then he can start logging PIC from that moment.....Thats my interpretation anyhow.
Cheers
EA
If you do a syndicate checkout with another PPL then I guess they log P1 and you don't log....
As far as flying with your mates, you can both log PIC for the portion you are sole manipulator of the controls, so if half way through a leg you decide you've had enough and pass control to you mate, then he can start logging PIC from that moment.....Thats my interpretation anyhow.
Cheers
EA
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 325
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The thing to remember is the only legal requirement is Article 28. Para 2(c) requires you to log your operating capacity. It does not give any designations of operating capacity.
LASORS only provides guidance so that hours claimed are countable towards licence issue and subsequent revalidation.
If you are being checked out, there is nothing in law that prohibits one pilot being PIC and the other P1U/S. There is no law that says they must be an instructor or an examiner, or only one pilot may log hours in an aircraft certified for single pilot operation. If you have correctly described your operating capacity in accordance with Art 28 then you are legal. If you are acting as a pilot in an aeroplane then Art 28 requires you to log it. If you have no training or checking role, then you are just a passenger, and can't claim it as time towards qualification; you can log it as PAX or SNY.
If you have no licence but are awaiting it, you can fly under the supervision of a FI, you can fly solo and log P1, you can fly dual and log PUT; you could do a checkout on another aircraft and log it as P1U/S if it was successful.
The instructor can never be a passenger, as you are not qualified to carry passengers. On any instructional flight the instructor can and must log it as PIC.
At the end of the day its your log, you can log anything you like, just beware what you claim using the hours logged. The P3 designation is not used any more (related to 3 pilot operation in the 60/70s).
LASORS only provides guidance so that hours claimed are countable towards licence issue and subsequent revalidation.
If you are being checked out, there is nothing in law that prohibits one pilot being PIC and the other P1U/S. There is no law that says they must be an instructor or an examiner, or only one pilot may log hours in an aircraft certified for single pilot operation. If you have correctly described your operating capacity in accordance with Art 28 then you are legal. If you are acting as a pilot in an aeroplane then Art 28 requires you to log it. If you have no training or checking role, then you are just a passenger, and can't claim it as time towards qualification; you can log it as PAX or SNY.
If you have no licence but are awaiting it, you can fly under the supervision of a FI, you can fly solo and log P1, you can fly dual and log PUT; you could do a checkout on another aircraft and log it as P1U/S if it was successful.
The instructor can never be a passenger, as you are not qualified to carry passengers. On any instructional flight the instructor can and must log it as PIC.
At the end of the day its your log, you can log anything you like, just beware what you claim using the hours logged. The P3 designation is not used any more (related to 3 pilot operation in the 60/70s).
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 453
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I had a check flight at the start of the year after my currency had lapsed (no flight in 60 days) which I was told by the instructor to log as PUT. Not sure if this is right now after reading this thread. 
Last edited by Northern Highflyer; 11th Aug 2003 at 21:31.
