I've had enough
Thread Starter
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 17
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From: UK
I've had enough
I have wanted to fly since I was about 18, and two years ago at the age of 36 I finally found that I could afford to start learning. However the lessons with my first instructor were not enjoyable and after three months I changed instructors.
My second instructor made the lessons fun because of his enthusiasm for flying, and I completed most of my training with him. However he has now left. Before he left, though, he said I was ready to do my skills test. (I've also passed all but one of the exams).
Today I had some ground school with my third instructor in preparation for the skills test. Due to this instructor's style this lesson felt to me like an exercise in ritual humiliation and has completely destroyed what confidence I had in my limited flying abilities. I called the lesson short because of how it was going and left the airfield feeling sick and completely gutted. He thought I was not being 'receptive'.
To be objective for a moment, I could see what he was trying to achieve, and I should have known more of the answers to the questions he was asking, given that I've already done most of the exams. However I don't see why I should have to be objective. As a paying customer, why the
do I have to be objective? Okay, maybe I'm a bit thick, but I don't need to pay thousands of pounds to be made to feel a complete idiot. Learning to fly should be something you enjoy, not endure. If I want humiliation I can get if for free elsewhere.
Yes, I could change instructors. Yes, I could change schools. But this would involve more time, money and inconvenience, which I'm simply not prepared to spend or put up with. I guess I just don't want it badly enough any more. I've been here before, where I've persevered with something I should have given up on earlier, in order to prove something to myself. I don't need to do that any more.
Having just read back through what I've typed so far, if this all sounds rather pathetic then I don't think I've truly conveyed how I was made to feel today. But maybe I'm just the (over) sensitive type. I'm also fed up with instructors being late for lessons, and finding the plane is u/s when I get to the airfield but nobody calls and says not to bother coming in, and not being recognised by the other instructors, even though I've been going there every other week for two years (and yet when my girlfriend has come with me, they all say hello to her - funny that!), etc, etc. But hey, if you want to learn to fly, that's the kind of crap you have to put up with, right? Er, no, actually.
Anyway, my apologies for a long post, and for it probably not making any sense at all - it's very late and I couldn't go to sleep without getting it off my chest. Thanks for listening, but I've had enough. Rant over.
Safe flying,
Dave.
My second instructor made the lessons fun because of his enthusiasm for flying, and I completed most of my training with him. However he has now left. Before he left, though, he said I was ready to do my skills test. (I've also passed all but one of the exams).
Today I had some ground school with my third instructor in preparation for the skills test. Due to this instructor's style this lesson felt to me like an exercise in ritual humiliation and has completely destroyed what confidence I had in my limited flying abilities. I called the lesson short because of how it was going and left the airfield feeling sick and completely gutted. He thought I was not being 'receptive'.
To be objective for a moment, I could see what he was trying to achieve, and I should have known more of the answers to the questions he was asking, given that I've already done most of the exams. However I don't see why I should have to be objective. As a paying customer, why the
do I have to be objective? Okay, maybe I'm a bit thick, but I don't need to pay thousands of pounds to be made to feel a complete idiot. Learning to fly should be something you enjoy, not endure. If I want humiliation I can get if for free elsewhere.Yes, I could change instructors. Yes, I could change schools. But this would involve more time, money and inconvenience, which I'm simply not prepared to spend or put up with. I guess I just don't want it badly enough any more. I've been here before, where I've persevered with something I should have given up on earlier, in order to prove something to myself. I don't need to do that any more.
Having just read back through what I've typed so far, if this all sounds rather pathetic then I don't think I've truly conveyed how I was made to feel today. But maybe I'm just the (over) sensitive type. I'm also fed up with instructors being late for lessons, and finding the plane is u/s when I get to the airfield but nobody calls and says not to bother coming in, and not being recognised by the other instructors, even though I've been going there every other week for two years (and yet when my girlfriend has come with me, they all say hello to her - funny that!), etc, etc. But hey, if you want to learn to fly, that's the kind of crap you have to put up with, right? Er, no, actually.
Anyway, my apologies for a long post, and for it probably not making any sense at all - it's very late and I couldn't go to sleep without getting it off my chest. Thanks for listening, but I've had enough. Rant over.
Safe flying,
Dave.
Last edited by david.porter9; 23rd July 2003 at 05:02.
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 151
Likes: 0
From: Yorkshire, UK
"Yes, I could change instructors. Yes, I could change schools. But this would involve more time, money and inconvenience, which I'm simply not prepared to spend or put up with. I guess I just don't want it badly enough any more."
I think that sums it up right there.
I think that sums it up right there.
PINKS WORLD THROUGH ROSE COLOURED SPECS
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,268
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From: Happy and content again back in the house on the beach ,baking on the AGA and flying around my highland home . emmmmmmmm
HELO DAVE
Thought i'd add my four penny worth.
I have recently had to exsperiance, four different instructors (much against my will ,due to my usual FI leaving),and have exsperianced the feeling of "inadaquacy" (if that is the correct word to use.
I have been flying for nearly four months,and have not as many exams as you ,although i have 40 hours .
I some times feel incredably stupid,when being briefed (and i have usually read up on the chapter beforehand, )but quite often what I feel I know, just goes out of my head when put on the spot with a question fired at me.I do not really like one to one,for that very reason.
When travelling home after the lesson.I am kicking myself, for saying something incredably stupid and wrong,when I know the correct answer.
I have always liked consistancy,and prefere to stick with one FI,then he really should know ,what you've taken in ,and what exactly he has taught you, but can also see that you do pick up points,from someone different aswell.
AS to being ignored at the club ,especially having invested so much money there ,is disgracefull.
That would never happen at my club,but it is only a small one.
I have also been alerted when the weather,has been to wild to fly ,and as I have a long 160 mile trip , I appreciated,the thought and conern.
I started to fly at 48 and it was never an life long ambition,(i can't say to much as it is all on another thread),
but I have nearly given up so many times in my short 16 weeks ,and i don't suspect,that my motivation was as strong as yours,and I have had , different obstacles,thrown at me on the way, but feel i have invested to much time and money to give uo at the last hurdle,(but i'm not there yet.)
I'm not very articulate,and waffle alot , and hope i havn't missed the point ,on your wanting to give up.
But when i have felt i havn't known enough at a lesson ,i just want to get home and reread the relavant bits ,so I will not make that mistake (or get flustered,and give the wrong answer again)
For what its worth, Its another day to day,and you should rethink.you sound so close.
Get another instructor and complete it.
PINK-AVIATOR
Thought i'd add my four penny worth.
I have recently had to exsperiance, four different instructors (much against my will ,due to my usual FI leaving),and have exsperianced the feeling of "inadaquacy" (if that is the correct word to use.
I have been flying for nearly four months,and have not as many exams as you ,although i have 40 hours .
I some times feel incredably stupid,when being briefed (and i have usually read up on the chapter beforehand, )but quite often what I feel I know, just goes out of my head when put on the spot with a question fired at me.I do not really like one to one,for that very reason.
When travelling home after the lesson.I am kicking myself, for saying something incredably stupid and wrong,when I know the correct answer.
I have always liked consistancy,and prefere to stick with one FI,then he really should know ,what you've taken in ,and what exactly he has taught you, but can also see that you do pick up points,from someone different aswell.
AS to being ignored at the club ,especially having invested so much money there ,is disgracefull.
That would never happen at my club,but it is only a small one.
I have also been alerted when the weather,has been to wild to fly ,and as I have a long 160 mile trip , I appreciated,the thought and conern.
I started to fly at 48 and it was never an life long ambition,(i can't say to much as it is all on another thread),
but I have nearly given up so many times in my short 16 weeks ,and i don't suspect,that my motivation was as strong as yours,and I have had , different obstacles,thrown at me on the way, but feel i have invested to much time and money to give uo at the last hurdle,(but i'm not there yet.)
I'm not very articulate,and waffle alot , and hope i havn't missed the point ,on your wanting to give up.
But when i have felt i havn't known enough at a lesson ,i just want to get home and reread the relavant bits ,so I will not make that mistake (or get flustered,and give the wrong answer again)
For what its worth, Its another day to day,and you should rethink.you sound so close.
Get another instructor and complete it.
PINK-AVIATOR
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 680
Likes: 3
From: Who cares? ;-)
bravo Pinkster!
that's just the kind of motivation Dave needs!
And she's right, Dave. Don't give up! A student cannot be expected to know everything and do everything perfect... he's a student after all! It's the instructors job to show him, teach him how it's done and patiently practice it with him until he gets it right. Some students grasp it right away, some need longer.... so what! And it should be fun!!! why do it otherwise... you're doing it to enjoy and not because you have to!
It's frustrating to have to keep adjusting to different instructors... each has their own personality, their own strengths and weaknesses, and their own way of doing things that the poor student has to keep adjusting to. It has some advantages to try out flying with someone new, but not the way you experienced it. There are sometimes a personality clash, the chemistry is just not there, then it's ok to change ...
Have you talked to other students about it? Do they also have the same experiences you do? If so, then sit down with them and the head instructor and get things cleared.... you may find out, that you're not alone with the problem. If it seems that only you have a problem, then try to find out what it is... maybe your girl friend can do some detective work
I wish you all the best and hope you don't give up!! You've already invested a lot in your life's dream.... go for it!!
WestWind1950
P.S. no reason to apologise for long postings... it's got to let off steam!
that's just the kind of motivation Dave needs!
And she's right, Dave. Don't give up! A student cannot be expected to know everything and do everything perfect... he's a student after all! It's the instructors job to show him, teach him how it's done and patiently practice it with him until he gets it right. Some students grasp it right away, some need longer.... so what! And it should be fun!!! why do it otherwise... you're doing it to enjoy and not because you have to!
It's frustrating to have to keep adjusting to different instructors... each has their own personality, their own strengths and weaknesses, and their own way of doing things that the poor student has to keep adjusting to. It has some advantages to try out flying with someone new, but not the way you experienced it. There are sometimes a personality clash, the chemistry is just not there, then it's ok to change ...
Have you talked to other students about it? Do they also have the same experiences you do? If so, then sit down with them and the head instructor and get things cleared.... you may find out, that you're not alone with the problem. If it seems that only you have a problem, then try to find out what it is... maybe your girl friend can do some detective work
I wish you all the best and hope you don't give up!! You've already invested a lot in your life's dream.... go for it!!
WestWind1950P.S. no reason to apologise for long postings... it's got to let off steam!
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 116
Likes: 0
From: UK
David,
I was fortunate to have had only one instructor during my PPL. His instructing style was however very matter of fact and abrupt, - if you were having an off day & your flying was cr@p, he would say, "you are having an off day & your flying is cr@p" (or worse). A lot of punters didn't really get on with him, found him abrupt and overly critical, and therefore did not enjoy their training.
For me, his (mostly constructive) criticism was water off a ducks back. At the end of the day - I wanted to learn to fly, & be competent & safe - and therefore if I was doing something wrong or was picking up any bad habits I wanted to be told. No point in pussy footing around.
However - just before my skills test, at the same point as you are now, I did a mini mock test with him to prepare. The viz was pretty poor so it was difficult on the nav & diversion practice to try & pick a distant feature & hold heading, so I was having difficulty in accurate straight & level. Without an obvious horizon, stalls & steep level turns also became more "challanging". Anyway, enough excuses - suffice to say that my flying that day was pretty poor (and my instructor made sure I knew it). I left that lesson feeling absolutely gutted, deflated and dejected. It took me a couple of days to snap out of it. I think my instructor was probably no different towards me than previously, it is just that you become so "wound-up" before your test and are so wanting to be built up prior to it that you become perhaps ultra sensitive to criticism.
After passing my skills test, I told my instructor how de-motivational that last lesson had been & he said that it wasn't uncommon for students to have a disasterous last lesson followed by the best flying they have ever done in their subsequent skills test. On reflection, I think he ought to realise that students needed more of a confidence boost prior to the test, but also that I was probably more p1ssed off with myself than with him for what I know was a poor performance.
Enough rambling - if you want to learn to fly enough, David, pick yourself up and go out and "show" your new instructor that you can do it, after all your last instructor thought that you were ready for test, and it is your examiner that you need to impress in a week or two not your current instructor. You're too close to throw in the towel now.
Mr. W.
I was fortunate to have had only one instructor during my PPL. His instructing style was however very matter of fact and abrupt, - if you were having an off day & your flying was cr@p, he would say, "you are having an off day & your flying is cr@p" (or worse). A lot of punters didn't really get on with him, found him abrupt and overly critical, and therefore did not enjoy their training.
For me, his (mostly constructive) criticism was water off a ducks back. At the end of the day - I wanted to learn to fly, & be competent & safe - and therefore if I was doing something wrong or was picking up any bad habits I wanted to be told. No point in pussy footing around.
However - just before my skills test, at the same point as you are now, I did a mini mock test with him to prepare. The viz was pretty poor so it was difficult on the nav & diversion practice to try & pick a distant feature & hold heading, so I was having difficulty in accurate straight & level. Without an obvious horizon, stalls & steep level turns also became more "challanging". Anyway, enough excuses - suffice to say that my flying that day was pretty poor (and my instructor made sure I knew it). I left that lesson feeling absolutely gutted, deflated and dejected. It took me a couple of days to snap out of it. I think my instructor was probably no different towards me than previously, it is just that you become so "wound-up" before your test and are so wanting to be built up prior to it that you become perhaps ultra sensitive to criticism.
After passing my skills test, I told my instructor how de-motivational that last lesson had been & he said that it wasn't uncommon for students to have a disasterous last lesson followed by the best flying they have ever done in their subsequent skills test. On reflection, I think he ought to realise that students needed more of a confidence boost prior to the test, but also that I was probably more p1ssed off with myself than with him for what I know was a poor performance.
Enough rambling - if you want to learn to fly enough, David, pick yourself up and go out and "show" your new instructor that you can do it, after all your last instructor thought that you were ready for test, and it is your examiner that you need to impress in a week or two not your current instructor. You're too close to throw in the towel now.
Mr. W.
Sub Judice Angel Lovegod
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 2,460
Likes: 0
From: London
David
If it makes you feel any better about your personal humiliation, I had a first instructor who would beat his dog (in front of me) if I performed badly. I was 14 or 15 at the time and therefore too young to entirely place the blame on the instructor, so therefore took a good proportion on my own shoulders.
I won't identify the instructor or the place, but if anyone else remembers the guy, I am talking a pipe-smoker in the East of the UK, in the late sixties or early seventies.
W
If it makes you feel any better about your personal humiliation, I had a first instructor who would beat his dog (in front of me) if I performed badly. I was 14 or 15 at the time and therefore too young to entirely place the blame on the instructor, so therefore took a good proportion on my own shoulders.
I won't identify the instructor or the place, but if anyone else remembers the guy, I am talking a pipe-smoker in the East of the UK, in the late sixties or early seventies.
W
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 170
Likes: 0
From: Newcastle
Dave,
I can really understand where you are coming from, becasue I, too, almost hung up my flying goggles after a lesson with a particulary abrasive instructor.
I was a very apprehensive student throughout the whole of my training, and I lacked confidence at every new stage of my learning. I was very susceptable to critisism, and wrongly assumed that I was the worst student at everything. And this sets the scene for my brush with a poor instructor.
Unlike you, though, this happened to me when I began the nav portion of the course. In the lesson, I felt humiliated, belittled, incapable (which was probably true) and utterly demoralised. When we had landed, the instructor told me that if I didn't pick up my flying abilities, then I would fail the skills test (which was a long way away, and which ultimately, I passed.)
I went home and thought about the same things you did, and felt like giving it all up. Why should a student (regardless of abilitly) be made to feel so bad after spending so much? Flying is meant to fun for God's sake, but that single lesson with that particualr instructor nearly finished me off.
After I had passed my PPL, I read through my student records, and couldn't believe what he'd written about me. Every other comment was positive, but his basically said, 'He has displayed the worst example of flying that I've ever seen in my life' - which is hardly a constructive critisism, and I'm sure that if I'd read it at the time, I would heve definitely given up.
I refused to fly with the above instructor, and although it was sometimes a bit tense when I would see him around, everything turned out better. (Incidentally, he was a very popular instructor, and his methods worked very well for other students, most notably young men in the teens - perhaps because they were still used to teachers shouting at them at school. )
The one thing that you've got to remember (which you probably already know) is that no instructor is ever alike. In the course of my PPL, I flew with ten different instructors and they all had a different teaching method. The instructor who I felt got the most out of me, was the one who was calm, collected and didn't shout or swear at me. (And it's ironic that out of all of these instructors, he is the only one flying jets as an airline pilot).
Don't give up. Change instructors or school. You have come too far now to throw it all away. Let us know what you decide to do.
Flock1
I can really understand where you are coming from, becasue I, too, almost hung up my flying goggles after a lesson with a particulary abrasive instructor.
I was a very apprehensive student throughout the whole of my training, and I lacked confidence at every new stage of my learning. I was very susceptable to critisism, and wrongly assumed that I was the worst student at everything. And this sets the scene for my brush with a poor instructor.
Unlike you, though, this happened to me when I began the nav portion of the course. In the lesson, I felt humiliated, belittled, incapable (which was probably true) and utterly demoralised. When we had landed, the instructor told me that if I didn't pick up my flying abilities, then I would fail the skills test (which was a long way away, and which ultimately, I passed.)
I went home and thought about the same things you did, and felt like giving it all up. Why should a student (regardless of abilitly) be made to feel so bad after spending so much? Flying is meant to fun for God's sake, but that single lesson with that particualr instructor nearly finished me off.
After I had passed my PPL, I read through my student records, and couldn't believe what he'd written about me. Every other comment was positive, but his basically said, 'He has displayed the worst example of flying that I've ever seen in my life' - which is hardly a constructive critisism, and I'm sure that if I'd read it at the time, I would heve definitely given up.
I refused to fly with the above instructor, and although it was sometimes a bit tense when I would see him around, everything turned out better. (Incidentally, he was a very popular instructor, and his methods worked very well for other students, most notably young men in the teens - perhaps because they were still used to teachers shouting at them at school. )
The one thing that you've got to remember (which you probably already know) is that no instructor is ever alike. In the course of my PPL, I flew with ten different instructors and they all had a different teaching method. The instructor who I felt got the most out of me, was the one who was calm, collected and didn't shout or swear at me. (And it's ironic that out of all of these instructors, he is the only one flying jets as an airline pilot).
Don't give up. Change instructors or school. You have come too far now to throw it all away. Let us know what you decide to do.
Flock1
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,650
Likes: 0
From: Chichester, UK
David - as others have said, try and keep going because you're so close now. I think we all have had days when you start to wonder why you are putting up with it all, I certainly did.
I'm not going to duplicate all that they've said, but one suggestion - go find someone with a PPL to take you flying to remind yourself why you are bothering with all this. Go off for a cuppa at a nice grass airfield, enjoy a still, clear summer evening from 4000 feet or do whatever takes your fancy, because that's what flying is about once you have your PPL. It's not about some @rse of an instructor slagging you because you still cannot do a good glide approach or you've b*ggered up PFLs again (guess what my problem areas were!), but with all the hassle of the PPL it's easy to forget that.
Good luck
I'm not going to duplicate all that they've said, but one suggestion - go find someone with a PPL to take you flying to remind yourself why you are bothering with all this. Go off for a cuppa at a nice grass airfield, enjoy a still, clear summer evening from 4000 feet or do whatever takes your fancy, because that's what flying is about once you have your PPL. It's not about some @rse of an instructor slagging you because you still cannot do a good glide approach or you've b*ggered up PFLs again (guess what my problem areas were!), but with all the hassle of the PPL it's easy to forget that.
Good luck
Official PPRuNe Chaplain
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 3,498
Likes: 0
From: Witnesham, Suffolk
DON'T GIVE UP! Stick with it, and you'll have the joy many of us do, of flying through the air with the greatest of ease, loving every minute of it.
Instructors are all different, as others have said, and the one who is good for one student is bad for another. I had some dreadful ones (and refused to fly with them again), and settled with one who was calm, relaxed, briefed before the flight and debriefed afterwards, explained what had happened versus what should have happened, and so on.
Sometimes he would say "You can do better than that. Now, what went wrong?" - and he knew and could explain it.
No coincidence that he's now flying P1 in 737s. Find the right guy, and stick with it!
Instructors are all different, as others have said, and the one who is good for one student is bad for another. I had some dreadful ones (and refused to fly with them again), and settled with one who was calm, relaxed, briefed before the flight and debriefed afterwards, explained what had happened versus what should have happened, and so on.
Sometimes he would say "You can do better than that. Now, what went wrong?" - and he knew and could explain it.
No coincidence that he's now flying P1 in 737s. Find the right guy, and stick with it!
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
From: Northamptonshire
I don't know what attracted you to flying but we seem to have had a similar start.
I had a flying lesson as a 17th birthday pressie. Completely addicted and no money to continue, I never lost sight of how good that day felt. I can remember every second even today (a million years later!). Now in my thirties I finally have my coveted PPL.
My lasting regrets are not what I have done in my life, but those things I chose not to do. (Particularly my withdrawl from the donkey derby at Butlins, age 6
)
Look beyond this to the wonderful times airborne that lie ahead once you have gained your wings.
I had a flying lesson as a 17th birthday pressie. Completely addicted and no money to continue, I never lost sight of how good that day felt. I can remember every second even today (a million years later!). Now in my thirties I finally have my coveted PPL.
My lasting regrets are not what I have done in my life, but those things I chose not to do. (Particularly my withdrawl from the donkey derby at Butlins, age 6
)Look beyond this to the wonderful times airborne that lie ahead once you have gained your wings.
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 480
Likes: 0
From: Livin de island life
David - don't give up!
We all (most of us) changed instructors at some point - a lot of us for reasons of chemistry or attitude. The older the student, the more discriminating we are as a customer; some flight schools have not grasped the customer service concept yet!
If you think there is an instructor at your current school that you might be successful with - pursue the "interview with the CFI" route and see what can be hammered out. If not, search for a school with a different attitude.
I found that I preferred to study with older, career instructors rather than hours-building wannabee jet-jocks. The instructor I now use for currency and brushup work is a model of calm and reason - he's not local to me but I deserve the best (and so do you).
You have come so far that it would be a shame to throw it all away when you are so close to the fun starting - once you have your PPL you can begin to pick and choose your flying company and where you go/what you do.
Take EVOs advice and go flying with somebody else for pleasure. I'm sure if you explore the forums there will be somebody in your neck of the woods who will help - we are a pretty friendly lot.
If you think there is an instructor at your current school that you might be successful with - pursue the "interview with the CFI" route and see what can be hammered out. If not, search for a school with a different attitude.
I found that I preferred to study with older, career instructors rather than hours-building wannabee jet-jocks. The instructor I now use for currency and brushup work is a model of calm and reason - he's not local to me but I deserve the best (and so do you).
You have come so far that it would be a shame to throw it all away when you are so close to the fun starting - once you have your PPL you can begin to pick and choose your flying company and where you go/what you do.
Take EVOs advice and go flying with somebody else for pleasure. I'm sure if you explore the forums there will be somebody in your neck of the woods who will help - we are a pretty friendly lot.
The Original Whirly
Joined: Feb 1999
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 4,327
Likes: 2
From: Belper, Derbyshire, UK
I started to flying in 1997. Since then I've flown all over the UK, had a flying holiday in Ireland, flown in a helicopter to Paris. I've flown helicopters in California, doing low level stuff along the beaches and mountain flying at 10,000 ft. I've flown twin-engined helicopters and complex f/w aircraft in Russia. I've won a fairly prestigious flying competition, and most recently got a helicopter instructors rating...and I'm also preparing for a flying holiday in the Highlands and Islands in a couple of weeks. Sounds like I'm one of those insufferable "naturals" who always had it easy, doesn't it. Was it easy? LIKE BLOODY HELL IT WAS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
My first instructor left after I'd done 10 hours, recommending another guy who - to cut a very long story short - completely destroyed my confidence to the extent I felt sick and could barely drive to the airfield, let alone fly. I kept going, eventually changing instructors, and getting my PPL(A) after...90 hours. A fair proportion of it was spent just trying to calm down and forget what that instructor had said and done. I often thought I must be completely mad to carry on, because I wasn't enjoying it, and didn't really think I'd ever be any good anyway. Being a stubborn sod who hates giving up on things, I carried on regardless. Was it worth all the pain..to say nothing of the threat of imminent bankruptcy? Yes yes yes yes yes yes YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I started flying fairly late in life (and this lady doesn't give away her age on PPRuNe
. And I'm not exaggerating when I say it's changed my life. I've had an absolutely wonderful time, done loads of things I'd never have believed possible, and am now enjoying the prospect of starting a new career at an age when many of my friends are bored and waiting for retirement (actually I'm terrified, but that's another story). That PPL can lead to so much. You don't even realise it when you're stuck there trying to pass it.
You wrote that post, and obviously needed to, straight after that bad...I mean horrendous, and on the instructors part, unforgivable...experience. I suspect you may have had second thoughts by now anyway. If not...well, it's up to you, and I don't tell other people what to do with their lives. But it seems to me that it would be a real shame to give up on something you've wanted to do for half your life, when you're right on the threshold of doing it, because of the actions of a stupid b@stard who SHOULDN'T BE INSTRUCTING IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!!!!!
Good luck whatever you decide, and believe me, I know JUST how you feel; you are not alone.
Whirly
My first instructor left after I'd done 10 hours, recommending another guy who - to cut a very long story short - completely destroyed my confidence to the extent I felt sick and could barely drive to the airfield, let alone fly. I kept going, eventually changing instructors, and getting my PPL(A) after...90 hours. A fair proportion of it was spent just trying to calm down and forget what that instructor had said and done. I often thought I must be completely mad to carry on, because I wasn't enjoying it, and didn't really think I'd ever be any good anyway. Being a stubborn sod who hates giving up on things, I carried on regardless. Was it worth all the pain..to say nothing of the threat of imminent bankruptcy? Yes yes yes yes yes yes YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I started flying fairly late in life (and this lady doesn't give away her age on PPRuNe
. And I'm not exaggerating when I say it's changed my life. I've had an absolutely wonderful time, done loads of things I'd never have believed possible, and am now enjoying the prospect of starting a new career at an age when many of my friends are bored and waiting for retirement (actually I'm terrified, but that's another story). That PPL can lead to so much. You don't even realise it when you're stuck there trying to pass it.You wrote that post, and obviously needed to, straight after that bad...I mean horrendous, and on the instructors part, unforgivable...experience. I suspect you may have had second thoughts by now anyway. If not...well, it's up to you, and I don't tell other people what to do with their lives. But it seems to me that it would be a real shame to give up on something you've wanted to do for half your life, when you're right on the threshold of doing it, because of the actions of a stupid b@stard who SHOULDN'T BE INSTRUCTING IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!!!!!
Good luck whatever you decide, and believe me, I know JUST how you feel; you are not alone.
Whirly
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 161
Likes: 0
From: N/A
It always amazes me that there seems to be so many instructors that seem unsuited to the job. I was lucky and the instructors I had (up to CPL/IR level) were calm, understanding and helpful.
A good instructor, or any kind of teacher, has to see things at least in part from the students point of view. Sure, some people react well to the kind of instructing that you have endured but I reckon the majority do not. Humilation of students is nearly always counter productive and it's my suspicion that this style of instruction is intended to let the student know how clever the instructor is. Doesn't work though does it?
I agree with everyone else so far. You are the customer and your abilities are much higher that you think. YOU pay the money - YOU take your choice.
Good luck - and let us all know when you pass.
A good instructor, or any kind of teacher, has to see things at least in part from the students point of view. Sure, some people react well to the kind of instructing that you have endured but I reckon the majority do not. Humilation of students is nearly always counter productive and it's my suspicion that this style of instruction is intended to let the student know how clever the instructor is. Doesn't work though does it?
I agree with everyone else so far. You are the customer and your abilities are much higher that you think. YOU pay the money - YOU take your choice.
Good luck - and let us all know when you pass.
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 10,804
Likes: 1
It seems that more and more reports of instructors with the symptoms of burn out are occuring.
I could see it in myself so I left to do something else for a bit.
Unfortunatly until the airlines start hiring again there are going to be alot of Instructors out there sitting with 1000+ hours pissed off earning crap money, taking !!!! off the owner and not really enjoying the job anymore.
For your next instructor don't go for the highly experenced seen everything type get a low hour houred instructor that still enjoys turning up for work.
No student can learn if they feel ill at ease with the instructor. And the best cockpit atmosphere is that both people involved are enjoying the lesson. The instructor will be more alert to the students needs and more importantly the student will be more receptive to learn.
Stick in with it, just think next month after the test you will be off on your tod with passangers.
Good Luck
MJ
I could see it in myself so I left to do something else for a bit.
Unfortunatly until the airlines start hiring again there are going to be alot of Instructors out there sitting with 1000+ hours pissed off earning crap money, taking !!!! off the owner and not really enjoying the job anymore.
For your next instructor don't go for the highly experenced seen everything type get a low hour houred instructor that still enjoys turning up for work.
No student can learn if they feel ill at ease with the instructor. And the best cockpit atmosphere is that both people involved are enjoying the lesson. The instructor will be more alert to the students needs and more importantly the student will be more receptive to learn.
Stick in with it, just think next month after the test you will be off on your tod with passangers.
Good Luck
MJ
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 104
Likes: 0
From: Worcester
David,
You should also maybe remember that you also have the right as a human being to tell somebody exactly what you think! I have been really lucky with all my instructors and they were all extremely patient and quick to praise you. However if I was having an off day they would say, sometimes in no uncertain terms.
I understand exactly what your saying and I have had many a lesson with episodes something like the following:
Instructor: You've lost 350ft in the last minute! keep your eye on the altimeter
Me: I'm trying
Instructor: Watch your heading, your miles off, and add some more power before you start climbing
Me: !!!!!
Instructor: You've just sailed passed 2500 on your way to 3000. We should have levelled off at 2500, and watch your heading.
Me: This is p*ssing me off now
Instructor: Relax, stop trying to fight everything, you're like a bull in a china shop. Whats your estimate.
Me: Ummmmm, errrrrrrr, ummmmmmm
Instructor: Do you know where we are?
Me: Ummmmm, errrrrrr, ummmmmm !!!!!.
etc etc etc.......
This can all be extremely depressing, and I think we all go through it. Don't be frightened to say to said instructor that your not having a good day. If you feel he's really being unkind, tell him!
I agree with Mr Wolfie. Your next lesson might be the best you've ever had.
If its any consolation I don't feel particularly "receptive" when I know I could be doing something better and I've got somebody else telling me. I know, and its very easy to walk away............Its also a great feeling when it all comes together and you can tell your instructor to "put that in his pipe and smoke it"!
You've come too far just to throw the towel in. Buy your instructor a cup of tea. tell him how your feeling and why, and be prepared to take a bit of abject critisiscm on the chin. Maybe its also worth remembering that the more your instructor wants from you, the better your flying will be, and the easier you will find the test.
The very best of luck,
F - Wyg
You should also maybe remember that you also have the right as a human being to tell somebody exactly what you think! I have been really lucky with all my instructors and they were all extremely patient and quick to praise you. However if I was having an off day they would say, sometimes in no uncertain terms.
I understand exactly what your saying and I have had many a lesson with episodes something like the following:
Instructor: You've lost 350ft in the last minute! keep your eye on the altimeter
Me: I'm trying
Instructor: Watch your heading, your miles off, and add some more power before you start climbing
Me: !!!!!
Instructor: You've just sailed passed 2500 on your way to 3000. We should have levelled off at 2500, and watch your heading.
Me: This is p*ssing me off now
Instructor: Relax, stop trying to fight everything, you're like a bull in a china shop. Whats your estimate.
Me: Ummmmm, errrrrrrr, ummmmmmm
Instructor: Do you know where we are?
Me: Ummmmm, errrrrrr, ummmmmm !!!!!.
etc etc etc.......
This can all be extremely depressing, and I think we all go through it. Don't be frightened to say to said instructor that your not having a good day. If you feel he's really being unkind, tell him!
I agree with Mr Wolfie. Your next lesson might be the best you've ever had.
If its any consolation I don't feel particularly "receptive" when I know I could be doing something better and I've got somebody else telling me. I know, and its very easy to walk away............Its also a great feeling when it all comes together and you can tell your instructor to "put that in his pipe and smoke it"!
You've come too far just to throw the towel in. Buy your instructor a cup of tea. tell him how your feeling and why, and be prepared to take a bit of abject critisiscm on the chin. Maybe its also worth remembering that the more your instructor wants from you, the better your flying will be, and the easier you will find the test.
The very best of luck,
F - Wyg
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 278
Likes: 0
From: UK
Any chance of one of the moderators copying this item over to the Flying Instructors & Examiners forum?
If just one of those smug FIs (and I can think of one or two) mends his ways something will have been achieved. But don’t hold your breath.
If just one of those smug FIs (and I can think of one or two) mends his ways something will have been achieved. But don’t hold your breath.
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,547
Likes: 0
From: Dublin
David,
I got my ppl last summer, and since then got checked out on a differnet airfcraft, and got my FAA PPL based on my JAA PPL, which involved getting a biannial flight review, and used it the opportunity to get checked out on another aircraft.
After the us trip, I came back home and for various reasons decided to get checked out on another "simple" (fixed gear and prop) airplane. Anyway I wound up with a different instructor, who critised just about everything I did, and really put me off.
I was confident in my abilities, and am a confident person, but all his nagging really did have a bad effect on my flying that day. Anyway I was determined not to let it affect me, and to sort it out the next day. The next day was no better, and after a few lessons with him, my confidence was really damaged. Damaged to the point that I could no longer fly properly at all. On about the 4th or 5th flight with him, in the debrefing he was really giving out to me and eventually said "I don't know why you can't do it! I don't know what's wrong with you! It's easy! Do you know why you can't do it?" That was about as much as I could take, and told him exactly why I couldn't fly with him. We agreed to part company, and I took my next flight with a instructor I'd flown with once before, and felt comfortable with.
I told me in outline only, what had happened with the other instructor. He told me to put behind me everything that had happened and to foget everything that the other guy had told me, and to just fly the airplane like I'd been thought. Low and behold, two perfect circuits and landing.
He looked around at me and said that there was absolutely nothing wrong with my flying other than the fact that someone had gone and ruined my confidence! We spend the rest of the lesson practicing emergency proceedures.....flapless and glide approaches etc, and I was signed off afterwards and haven't looked back.
I've had another checkout (new club) and a currency checkout since and had no problems.
I might have given up had I not already had my ppl, and knew how good it is to be free to fly on your own licence, and to be responsible for your own decisions, and not have to answer to some ignorant instructor!
If you are so close to your skills test you would be mad to give up now. You are too close to the best of flying; flying on your own licence.
As far as not knowing some of the answers go, don't worry too much about it. None of us know it all, we are always learning new things....just look at my met thread, to see that even someone with a ppl can still ask a stupid question
In any case when I did my skill test, the examiner asked me questions, some of which I didn't know that answers to, and some of which I felt I did, but the examiner pointed that there was more conditions etc than I'd said. I didn't matter. They don't expect you to know everything, just enough to be safe and competent. So don't worry too much about not knowing the answers.
But the one piece of advise I'll give you, is that if this instructor is ruining your confidence, don't make the mistake that I did. Can instructors straight away and don't try to pesevere with him. Confidence is easier lost than it is got, so don't ever let anyone take yours away. If the next lesson is going the same way, stop it early, and tell him you'd prefer to take your next lesson with someone else. It says more about him than it does about you.
dp
I got my ppl last summer, and since then got checked out on a differnet airfcraft, and got my FAA PPL based on my JAA PPL, which involved getting a biannial flight review, and used it the opportunity to get checked out on another aircraft.
After the us trip, I came back home and for various reasons decided to get checked out on another "simple" (fixed gear and prop) airplane. Anyway I wound up with a different instructor, who critised just about everything I did, and really put me off.
I was confident in my abilities, and am a confident person, but all his nagging really did have a bad effect on my flying that day. Anyway I was determined not to let it affect me, and to sort it out the next day. The next day was no better, and after a few lessons with him, my confidence was really damaged. Damaged to the point that I could no longer fly properly at all. On about the 4th or 5th flight with him, in the debrefing he was really giving out to me and eventually said "I don't know why you can't do it! I don't know what's wrong with you! It's easy! Do you know why you can't do it?" That was about as much as I could take, and told him exactly why I couldn't fly with him. We agreed to part company, and I took my next flight with a instructor I'd flown with once before, and felt comfortable with.
I told me in outline only, what had happened with the other instructor. He told me to put behind me everything that had happened and to foget everything that the other guy had told me, and to just fly the airplane like I'd been thought. Low and behold, two perfect circuits and landing.
He looked around at me and said that there was absolutely nothing wrong with my flying other than the fact that someone had gone and ruined my confidence! We spend the rest of the lesson practicing emergency proceedures.....flapless and glide approaches etc, and I was signed off afterwards and haven't looked back.
I've had another checkout (new club) and a currency checkout since and had no problems.
I might have given up had I not already had my ppl, and knew how good it is to be free to fly on your own licence, and to be responsible for your own decisions, and not have to answer to some ignorant instructor!
If you are so close to your skills test you would be mad to give up now. You are too close to the best of flying; flying on your own licence.
As far as not knowing some of the answers go, don't worry too much about it. None of us know it all, we are always learning new things....just look at my met thread, to see that even someone with a ppl can still ask a stupid question
In any case when I did my skill test, the examiner asked me questions, some of which I didn't know that answers to, and some of which I felt I did, but the examiner pointed that there was more conditions etc than I'd said. I didn't matter. They don't expect you to know everything, just enough to be safe and competent. So don't worry too much about not knowing the answers.
But the one piece of advise I'll give you, is that if this instructor is ruining your confidence, don't make the mistake that I did. Can instructors straight away and don't try to pesevere with him. Confidence is easier lost than it is got, so don't ever let anyone take yours away. If the next lesson is going the same way, stop it early, and tell him you'd prefer to take your next lesson with someone else. It says more about him than it does about you.
dp
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 3,325
Likes: 2
From: UK
Stick with it - no question. Flying, and your enjoyment of it, is far to important to be deflected by incompetent instruction.
Rise above it, and find a good guy (there are lots and lots about).
When I was learning, back in the late 1970s, I had a mixed bunch of instructors. Some were appalling, but because some were good (one or two were VERY good), I learn't to ignore the tossers and book future lessons with the right guys.
I found there was no pattern to the 'good guys'. Some of the good, and some of the appalling, were ex-service, doing it for love. Some of each were also low-experience youngsters on their way to an airline career.
When I look at how flying has been such a joy to me over the near quarter century I've been privaleged to do it (like today, formation flying with another Chippy and a Partenavia at Liverpool John Lennon to drop a fellow pilot's loved-one's ashes), I say again - stick with it.
SSD
Rise above it, and find a good guy (there are lots and lots about).
When I was learning, back in the late 1970s, I had a mixed bunch of instructors. Some were appalling, but because some were good (one or two were VERY good), I learn't to ignore the tossers and book future lessons with the right guys.
I found there was no pattern to the 'good guys'. Some of the good, and some of the appalling, were ex-service, doing it for love. Some of each were also low-experience youngsters on their way to an airline career.
When I look at how flying has been such a joy to me over the near quarter century I've been privaleged to do it (like today, formation flying with another Chippy and a Partenavia at Liverpool John Lennon to drop a fellow pilot's loved-one's ashes), I say again - stick with it.
SSD
The Original Whirly
Joined: Feb 1999
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 4,327
Likes: 2
From: Belper, Derbyshire, UK
Flying instruction involves two very different skills: being a good pilot and dealing with people. A lnumber of instructors seem to have the flying skills but not the people skills. They really aren't emphasised that much on instructors courses, if mine was typical. Some seem not to like people at all.
I've had both good and bad instructors, and that applies to those with both low and high hours. Some low hours ones are fresh and enthusiastic, some just incompetent and inexperienced. Some high hours ones are very good and love the job, others are disillusioned and burned out.
But one thing is certain, as everyone has said; you have a right to find one you get on with, and not put up with any !!!! until you do.
I've had both good and bad instructors, and that applies to those with both low and high hours. Some low hours ones are fresh and enthusiastic, some just incompetent and inexperienced. Some high hours ones are very good and love the job, others are disillusioned and burned out.
But one thing is certain, as everyone has said; you have a right to find one you get on with, and not put up with any !!!! until you do.
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 177
Likes: 0
From: Wales
I cannot understand why you are threatening to quit so close to the skills test just because your instructor says your knowledge is lacking. Ask another instructor to quiz you and if he says the same maybe your knowledge is lacking and you need to get the books out some more.
As you sure you are not just nervous about the skills test and looking for an excuse to quit. You can then go back to your family and say "I really wanted to fly all my life but this big bad instructor upset me just before my skills test and now I am going to quit".
You are 36 for gawds sake,
Fly with another instructor - no big deal.
Introduce yourself to all the staff and then make an effort to pass the time of day with them. Phone up before-hand to ensure the lesson is going ahead.
I was lucky in my training in that I had 2 instructors from start to finish and I got on really well with both of them but I wouldn't have gave it a second thought to "sack" one of them if they made me feel uncomfortable.
I think you hit the nail on the head with your statement about not wanting it enough.
Quit now and I can guarantee you will regret it for the rest of your life.
Become a PPL and I can guarantee that you will feel a sense of achievement and you will bore everyone silly with the fact that you can fly a plane.
Don't let a tw*t of an instructor stop you....unless of course you ARE using this as an excuse to quit.
28th,,
As you sure you are not just nervous about the skills test and looking for an excuse to quit. You can then go back to your family and say "I really wanted to fly all my life but this big bad instructor upset me just before my skills test and now I am going to quit".
You are 36 for gawds sake,
Fly with another instructor - no big deal.
Introduce yourself to all the staff and then make an effort to pass the time of day with them. Phone up before-hand to ensure the lesson is going ahead.
I was lucky in my training in that I had 2 instructors from start to finish and I got on really well with both of them but I wouldn't have gave it a second thought to "sack" one of them if they made me feel uncomfortable.
I think you hit the nail on the head with your statement about not wanting it enough.
Quit now and I can guarantee you will regret it for the rest of your life.
Become a PPL and I can guarantee that you will feel a sense of achievement and you will bore everyone silly with the fact that you can fly a plane.
Don't let a tw*t of an instructor stop you....unless of course you ARE using this as an excuse to quit.
28th,,