I've had enough
lazy fairweather PPRuNer
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Forres,Scotland
Posts: 218
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
David,
Ultimately the choice to continue will be yours and yours alone but bear this in mind:
1) Decide how you are likely to feel about this in five years time. If you think you will regret not continuing then heed the advice on this forum and find a way round your problem. If you decide your feelings toward aviation will be the same as when you wanted to give up, then perhaps you should kick it into touch.
2) Generally instructors believe themselves to be better than they are because they spend their life flying with novices. The really good ones do not change their style from student to student because they don't have to, they are universally good (there is one particular QFI at my workplace who personifys this, he is the same with every student he trains and always gets excellent results). Something I strive to attain but in reality know is beyond me. Still, no harm in trying.
3) Don't be scared to vent steam, I've had some right bollockings off students and every one of them was justified. What really annoys me is when I screw up (of course I do, just like everyone else) and the student has complained behind my back. You may be surprised that sometimes confrontation works!
4) No-one knows it all, if you think your instructor has given you duff gen then question him. There are NO stupid questions in aviation, only smug answers.
David, feel free to heed or ignore any or all of this advice. However, as an instructor I would be grateful for more information on your personal experience. If I can avoid inflicting on others the kind of experience you have gone through then something positive will have come out of it. Please PM if you have the time.
Regards and good luck with whatever you decide.
Jim Nicholas
Ultimately the choice to continue will be yours and yours alone but bear this in mind:
1) Decide how you are likely to feel about this in five years time. If you think you will regret not continuing then heed the advice on this forum and find a way round your problem. If you decide your feelings toward aviation will be the same as when you wanted to give up, then perhaps you should kick it into touch.
2) Generally instructors believe themselves to be better than they are because they spend their life flying with novices. The really good ones do not change their style from student to student because they don't have to, they are universally good (there is one particular QFI at my workplace who personifys this, he is the same with every student he trains and always gets excellent results). Something I strive to attain but in reality know is beyond me. Still, no harm in trying.
3) Don't be scared to vent steam, I've had some right bollockings off students and every one of them was justified. What really annoys me is when I screw up (of course I do, just like everyone else) and the student has complained behind my back. You may be surprised that sometimes confrontation works!
4) No-one knows it all, if you think your instructor has given you duff gen then question him. There are NO stupid questions in aviation, only smug answers.
David, feel free to heed or ignore any or all of this advice. However, as an instructor I would be grateful for more information on your personal experience. If I can avoid inflicting on others the kind of experience you have gone through then something positive will have come out of it. Please PM if you have the time.
Regards and good luck with whatever you decide.
Jim Nicholas
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: London
Posts: 38
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dave
I've been through something pretty similar to you, I took nigh on 6 months to think it through but sorted myself out (including swapping schools), got back in the saddle, and was the proud owner of a PPL 9 months later! Best decision I ever took.
Oh, and the worst navex of my life was my Skills Test rehearsal, it all went totally pear shaped after the first turning point and went downhill from thereon in. Bore no resemblance to the actual test which ran like clockwork!
Sounds like you've got a decent plan there - let us all know when you've passed!
I've been through something pretty similar to you, I took nigh on 6 months to think it through but sorted myself out (including swapping schools), got back in the saddle, and was the proud owner of a PPL 9 months later! Best decision I ever took.
Oh, and the worst navex of my life was my Skills Test rehearsal, it all went totally pear shaped after the first turning point and went downhill from thereon in. Bore no resemblance to the actual test which ran like clockwork!
Sounds like you've got a decent plan there - let us all know when you've passed!
Westy
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,085
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Reading David's posts, I am of two minds:
(1) I too have had two or three bad experiences with "instructors" who misconceived their role and wished to play "examiners" ... a semi-adversarial position that does not make for effective learning.
(2) On the other hand, it sounds as though this 3rd instructor was specifically asked to ensure that David was ready for his skills test; so I don't think that he can be blamed for coming on a bit strong and asking some difficult questions. Most decent flying schools give a pretty gruelling mock exam, on the theory that if the student can muddle his way through that, he should have no difficulty on the real thing. Of course, this does not justify asking all sorts of irrelvant questions about obscure trivia that the student can't reasonably be expected to know, or demanding answers in a sneering, contemputous manner (not sure whether either of those problems arose here).
I agree with Monocock: only David can decide whether he wants to continue, without consideration to such issues of being a 'quitter', etc. Flying is NOT for everyone, and a fair amount of sacrifices (financial, time, etc.) are required (post-license included). If one is truly hooked, than these irritants are minor; but no one should fault David if he ultimately decides "I don't need this, I'd get more fun playing golf".
I don't think that it would be stupid to give up at the last hurdle, IF David honestly feels that flying is not for him. He shouldn't be influenced by others' opinions, or by all the time and money that he has already sunk in (that's all water under the bridge, and there's no sense falling into a 'previous investment trap'; see further Harry Browne's freedom principles ). David, think about what you want in the future, and act accordingly.
(1) I too have had two or three bad experiences with "instructors" who misconceived their role and wished to play "examiners" ... a semi-adversarial position that does not make for effective learning.
(2) On the other hand, it sounds as though this 3rd instructor was specifically asked to ensure that David was ready for his skills test; so I don't think that he can be blamed for coming on a bit strong and asking some difficult questions. Most decent flying schools give a pretty gruelling mock exam, on the theory that if the student can muddle his way through that, he should have no difficulty on the real thing. Of course, this does not justify asking all sorts of irrelvant questions about obscure trivia that the student can't reasonably be expected to know, or demanding answers in a sneering, contemputous manner (not sure whether either of those problems arose here).
I was thinking about all the money I've spent only to get treated like an idiot. And all the other things I could have spent it on, which would have made me feel a damn sight better than I did then! So the idea of giving up seemed perfectly reasonable. I still feel that way to some extent, although I can also see that it looks stupid to give up at the last hurdle.
I don't think that it would be stupid to give up at the last hurdle, IF David honestly feels that flying is not for him. He shouldn't be influenced by others' opinions, or by all the time and money that he has already sunk in (that's all water under the bridge, and there's no sense falling into a 'previous investment trap'; see further Harry Browne's freedom principles ). David, think about what you want in the future, and act accordingly.
niknak
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 2,335
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dave,
Dont give up, and more importantly, don't put up with such crap.
Instructors like this are all too common in the UK, and for the most part they are egotisical cowards who are fond of their own voice, and are not worthy of the profession they purport to represent. You'll probably find that the people you've been unfortunate enough to be involved with are part timers, or old farts, who are only interested in keeping their licence up for minimal or no flying pay, you'd probably find they'd change their attitudes if you put them up against the wall and gave them a good twatting (an unorthodox yet proven solution).
Go somewhere else and realise your ambitions, it may cost you a bit more, but it'll be well worth it for your own satisfaction and self esteem.
Dont give up, and more importantly, don't put up with such crap.
Instructors like this are all too common in the UK, and for the most part they are egotisical cowards who are fond of their own voice, and are not worthy of the profession they purport to represent. You'll probably find that the people you've been unfortunate enough to be involved with are part timers, or old farts, who are only interested in keeping their licence up for minimal or no flying pay, you'd probably find they'd change their attitudes if you put them up against the wall and gave them a good twatting (an unorthodox yet proven solution).
Go somewhere else and realise your ambitions, it may cost you a bit more, but it'll be well worth it for your own satisfaction and self esteem.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: U.K.
Age: 46
Posts: 3,112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Errr, I think that's enough of the general instructor bashing thank you very much.
I have worked in numerous schools around the country, doing all sorts of teaching, from ab-initio PPL to IR and have to say that the VAST majority of instructor are a pleasure to be associated with.
There are the odd few who can be as blunt as a blunt thing, but they are relatively few in number.
Occasionally people clash, but it is fairly rare. (only happened to me once, and I changed the student to a different instructor as I didn't think I was getting through to them well enough.)
Instructing can be a fantastic job, but it can also be terrifying, frustrating and downright dangerous on occasion.
Oh and Niknak, I'm now a 'part-timer' and I can promise you that I'm not an egotistical coward. Just hope I don't do your next revalidation check........
I have worked in numerous schools around the country, doing all sorts of teaching, from ab-initio PPL to IR and have to say that the VAST majority of instructor are a pleasure to be associated with.
There are the odd few who can be as blunt as a blunt thing, but they are relatively few in number.
Occasionally people clash, but it is fairly rare. (only happened to me once, and I changed the student to a different instructor as I didn't think I was getting through to them well enough.)
Instructing can be a fantastic job, but it can also be terrifying, frustrating and downright dangerous on occasion.
Oh and Niknak, I'm now a 'part-timer' and I can promise you that I'm not an egotistical coward. Just hope I don't do your next revalidation check........
Simplicate and Add Lightness
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: EGSG, mainly
Posts: 254
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just to clarify things a little...
The problems David are encountering are not so much with one particular instructor, as with the whole 'school' and the 'character' who runs/owns it - and is also the examiner there.
He is not the first person to have issues at that place - and I am speaking from personal experience.
As I said privately to David, I was advised to take action - but I just wanted to forget about it frankly.
When we have a system which allows the owner, CFI, and examiner to be one and the same person, I'm afraid that this kind of situation is bound to occur from time to time.
The problems David are encountering are not so much with one particular instructor, as with the whole 'school' and the 'character' who runs/owns it - and is also the examiner there.
He is not the first person to have issues at that place - and I am speaking from personal experience.
As I said privately to David, I was advised to take action - but I just wanted to forget about it frankly.
When we have a system which allows the owner, CFI, and examiner to be one and the same person, I'm afraid that this kind of situation is bound to occur from time to time.
The Original Whirly
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Belper, Derbyshire, UK
Posts: 4,326
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In Altissimus,
It would be really useful for people to know about schools like that, in advance. Can you name it? Or give us a broad hint? Or pm me, as sometimes people tend to ask me about specific schools.
Many thanks,
Whirly
It would be really useful for people to know about schools like that, in advance. Can you name it? Or give us a broad hint? Or pm me, as sometimes people tend to ask me about specific schools.
Many thanks,
Whirly
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Dublin
Posts: 2,547
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't think that the school should be named here, now, because if someone from there reads this thread, it is only likely to make David's time there more difficult, if they recognise him.
By all means do name it in another thread in a few weeks, when the connection can no longer be made.
By all means do name it in another thread in a few weeks, when the connection can no longer be made.
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Herts (yeah yeah!)
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think we all have a pretty good idea of which 'geographically nearest' club we're talking about so no need to name names.
but
David:
The 'character' concerned may well be the CFI, owner, examiner, etc...
However, I believe that he is not the ONLY examiner there - chalk and cheese spring to mind.
You have options ...
Good luck
S.O.M.P.
but
David:
The 'character' concerned may well be the CFI, owner, examiner, etc...
However, I believe that he is not the ONLY examiner there - chalk and cheese spring to mind.
You have options ...
Good luck
S.O.M.P.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Before anybody names names could I point out I would still like to complete my training at this school if at all possible. Also one or two people have jumped to conclusions which are, in fact, incorrect.
Dave.
Dave.
Cut & Paste Intellectual
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Durham
Posts: 116
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
David:
I've been where you are - looked into the abyss. Got severe TLC ( total loss of confidence ). I didn't stop and climbed the greasy pole. Lots of encouragement from the family. "If you give up now - don't bother coming home after the money you've spent" Reached the apex of private flying. Watched glorious sunrises emerge after breaking through 10000' of solid clag. Got really choked up looking at the Northern Lights, flying out of Bergen, listening to Thunderclap Newman coming thru the ADF. Seen the inside of a big CB over the North Sea at night, in an airway - all on my ownsome. Shutdown duff engines, tussled with engineers over C of A flight tests, several renewals with all sorts of examiners from grads of ETPS to 16000 hour seen it all - done it all types. All with their own idiosyncrasies. I tell you this all pails into insignificance if you consider your alternative.
GOLF
This activity will truly drive you to total despair. Keep flying - it's easier and if you want a bit of "ferapy" buy yourself Top Gun and play the "Mav's re- engaging" sequence a couple of times
You will feel better in a few months and remember - you are the guy with the wedge. You do have control and the future's bright.
I've been where you are - looked into the abyss. Got severe TLC ( total loss of confidence ). I didn't stop and climbed the greasy pole. Lots of encouragement from the family. "If you give up now - don't bother coming home after the money you've spent" Reached the apex of private flying. Watched glorious sunrises emerge after breaking through 10000' of solid clag. Got really choked up looking at the Northern Lights, flying out of Bergen, listening to Thunderclap Newman coming thru the ADF. Seen the inside of a big CB over the North Sea at night, in an airway - all on my ownsome. Shutdown duff engines, tussled with engineers over C of A flight tests, several renewals with all sorts of examiners from grads of ETPS to 16000 hour seen it all - done it all types. All with their own idiosyncrasies. I tell you this all pails into insignificance if you consider your alternative.
GOLF
This activity will truly drive you to total despair. Keep flying - it's easier and if you want a bit of "ferapy" buy yourself Top Gun and play the "Mav's re- engaging" sequence a couple of times
You will feel better in a few months and remember - you are the guy with the wedge. You do have control and the future's bright.
niknak
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 2,335
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Say again Slowly
Humble apologies to you and other part timers with genuine desires to do the right thing, I didnt mean that all instructers such as yerself are in the bracket that Dave's encountered - far from it, I know that you work hard and make a very valuable contribution.
Perhaps I should brush up on my diplomatic skills, now then where did I put Alister Campbells 'phone number................
Humble apologies to you and other part timers with genuine desires to do the right thing, I didnt mean that all instructers such as yerself are in the bracket that Dave's encountered - far from it, I know that you work hard and make a very valuable contribution.
Perhaps I should brush up on my diplomatic skills, now then where did I put Alister Campbells 'phone number................
