Who do I speak to when?
Suave yet Shallow
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Who do I speak to when?
Hypothetical question but I maybe doing a route that will involve this in a few weeks to answers please:
If I was heading west to east, and there was a airfield just to the west of a Military field with MATZ zone right next to the civil airfields zone. I can't get above 2000 ft and I need to transit through the civil field and the MATZ.
Soo as I was tought to ask for Matz penetration while still a decent way out, in this scenario would I speak to the military, tell them what I want, then change to the civil airfield while I went through his zone then change backthe MATZ freq,
OR
Should I speak to the civil airfield on the run-up to it and as soon as I'm clear of him flick over the MATZ freq - which would mean I'm already on the edge of his zone, BUT you don't strictly need permission to go through a MATZ do you so he couldn't really tell me to clear off could he?
If I was heading west to east, and there was a airfield just to the west of a Military field with MATZ zone right next to the civil airfields zone. I can't get above 2000 ft and I need to transit through the civil field and the MATZ.
Soo as I was tought to ask for Matz penetration while still a decent way out, in this scenario would I speak to the military, tell them what I want, then change to the civil airfield while I went through his zone then change backthe MATZ freq,
OR
Should I speak to the civil airfield on the run-up to it and as soon as I'm clear of him flick over the MATZ freq - which would mean I'm already on the edge of his zone, BUT you don't strictly need permission to go through a MATZ do you so he couldn't really tell me to clear off could he?
Why do it if it's not fun?
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First of all, does the civilian airfield have air traffic control? If they do, you might find that the controllers have a directly link to the MATZ controllers, and can negotiate on your behalf while you're on their frequency. In any case, if they have ATC, give them a call and ask the controllers for advice. I've always found controllers more than willing to answer questions on the phone.
If it's not ATC, it's a bit more tricky since you'll have to negotiate it yourself. Still worth ringing the airport and finding out what local pilots do, or ringing the MATZ controller for advice, though.
In general, I wouldn't go for either of your options. I'd call up the civil airfield well before reaching them, ask permission to transit their ATZ, then request or report (depending whether ATC or not) a frequency change to the MATZ frequency well before reaching the MATZ. That might mean you leave the ATZ's frequency before leaving it, maybe even before entering it, but as long as you've got enough information to be able to pass over the airfield safely, that's fine.
Another option, of course, would be to go around the side of the ATZ!
FFF
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If it's not ATC, it's a bit more tricky since you'll have to negotiate it yourself. Still worth ringing the airport and finding out what local pilots do, or ringing the MATZ controller for advice, though.
In general, I wouldn't go for either of your options. I'd call up the civil airfield well before reaching them, ask permission to transit their ATZ, then request or report (depending whether ATC or not) a frequency change to the MATZ frequency well before reaching the MATZ. That might mean you leave the ATZ's frequency before leaving it, maybe even before entering it, but as long as you've got enough information to be able to pass over the airfield safely, that's fine.
Another option, of course, would be to go around the side of the ATZ!
FFF
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Suave yet Shallow
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I was thinking more specifically re: Gamston & Waddington/Cranwell/Scampton all next door.
Going around the MATZ's is a long way around, but I could avoid Gamston but I was expecting to be doing some VOR Tracking and so I would end up going right overhead the airfield.
Ta for the advice FFF, a phone call prior is the obvious thing to do, must be that Friday feeling making me dumb
Going around the MATZ's is a long way around, but I could avoid Gamston but I was expecting to be doing some VOR Tracking and so I would end up going right overhead the airfield.
Ta for the advice FFF, a phone call prior is the obvious thing to do, must be that Friday feeling making me dumb
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Ahh - that's better, and an area I'm very familiar with.
From the west low level think of yourself as no different to a departure from Gamston. Call them first, establish what the traffic situation is there and transit the overhead. As soon as you're through the overhead call Waddington for a service. Scampton is not a problem unless the dead sparrows are operating (they're the reason EGR313 is established and are the only aircraft based there - nothing else).
Waddington you'll find very accomodating. Cranwell depending on whether it's a weekday (full flying) or a weekend (UAS Grobs only) may or may not want to speak to you but Waddington will know and may or may not hand you over as required.
Easy
CM
From the west low level think of yourself as no different to a departure from Gamston. Call them first, establish what the traffic situation is there and transit the overhead. As soon as you're through the overhead call Waddington for a service. Scampton is not a problem unless the dead sparrows are operating (they're the reason EGR313 is established and are the only aircraft based there - nothing else).
Waddington you'll find very accomodating. Cranwell depending on whether it's a weekday (full flying) or a weekend (UAS Grobs only) may or may not want to speak to you but Waddington will know and may or may not hand you over as required.
Easy
CM
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Fun,
I havn't got the UK AIM on me right now but I am sure that in addition to ATC, A/G and AFIS have the authority to pass clearances from other agencies. Therefore, in theory and providing the officer has time, they can request the other clearance(s) and relay that/them to you if it is the sensible thing to do.
I havn't got the UK AIM on me right now but I am sure that in addition to ATC, A/G and AFIS have the authority to pass clearances from other agencies. Therefore, in theory and providing the officer has time, they can request the other clearance(s) and relay that/them to you if it is the sensible thing to do.
In addition to the Dead Sparrows (show some respect, dammit man), there is also the odd Tucano plus Jetstreams from Cranwell. When are you planning this and I can let you know how busy it's likely to be?
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I wouldnt trouble Waddington if only going o/h Gamston from the west .
Done this route a lot I work E.Mids then Gamston.
If going further E then Waddington lars are very helpfull,
they will tell you if you need Cranwell.
I havent got my chart with me but isnt Waddington/Cranwell a combined matz ?
Done this route a lot I work E.Mids then Gamston.
If going further E then Waddington lars are very helpfull,
they will tell you if you need Cranwell.
I havent got my chart with me but isnt Waddington/Cranwell a combined matz ?
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I would just call up the airfield telling them of my intentions and tell them that I intended to "transit through their overhead at **** feet". Once they know your movements you can then just say that you will be "changing en route to ***** MATZ on ***.**" frequency. They are hardly not going to let you and they will also know who you are when you pass overhead.
It is probably worth mentioning to the MATZ controller that you have informed the aforementioned airfield of your route.
It is probably worth mentioning to the MATZ controller that you have informed the aforementioned airfield of your route.
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My personal preference would be to call the MATZ as early as possible, once a service is established inform the MATZ controller of my intention to call the aerodrome to do the ATZ crossing and then call the MATZ back once through the ATZ. A bit more complicated than some suggestions above but I think it would give the MATZ controller a lot less stress than having an aircraft arriving in the MATZ and then asking for a crossing/service. Of course the MATZ controller may well be in communication with the aerodrome and be able to clear you through themselves (don't know about that, just being hopeful ) Asking locals and phoning ahead would play a major part in determining what action to take in individual scenarios.
Would anybody consider using multiple radios for this, i.e. telling the MATZ that you are calling the aerodrome on com2? Is that legal?
D
) Asking locals and phoning ahead would play a major part in determining what action to take in individual scenarios.Would anybody consider using multiple radios for this, i.e. telling the MATZ that you are calling the aerodrome on com2? Is that legal?
D
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Chilli Monster, if you're that familiar you should know not to route overhead winch launch glider sites (Gamston and Cranwell North are both active at the weekend and occasionally at other times).
7700
7700
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Squawking
Quite agree - but whose to say the sites will be active when the questioner is going to be flying - that comes under pre-flight plannning
The A/G at Gamston will be able to furnish the more up to date info as to whether they are when he calls them and if they are active then you deviate accordingly. Also depends how high he overflies as well of course (I used to be a gliding instructor so know full well the ramifications of cables dear chap).
Dufwer
As you say your method would be a bit more complicated and, if you look at a map of the area in question not really necessary.
However - no reason why you shouldn't use the second Com box to talk to both - if you have one. All the single aircraft I trained on were single box only, though thankfully my present steed is a lot better equipped
Davidt
Read the question - the questioner is going Gamston then Waddington / Scampton / Cranwell. Every reason to speak to Waddington.
As for the combined MATZ bit - although they are all conjoint down there Waddinton / Scampton is one combined MATZ (CMATZ) with Waddington the responsible controlling authority. Cranwell / Barkston is another CMATZ with Cranwell as the controlling authority.
Ham
Having had the deads getting a bit too close to my previous employers aeroplanes before they left Cranwell (their concept of 'north' of the railway line was a little bit ropey) I was glad when they moved back further north - the respect was a bit lacking in those days but it's coming back now
Quite agree - but whose to say the sites will be active when the questioner is going to be flying - that comes under pre-flight plannning
The A/G at Gamston will be able to furnish the more up to date info as to whether they are when he calls them and if they are active then you deviate accordingly. Also depends how high he overflies as well of course (I used to be a gliding instructor so know full well the ramifications of cables dear chap).Dufwer
As you say your method would be a bit more complicated and, if you look at a map of the area in question not really necessary.
However - no reason why you shouldn't use the second Com box to talk to both - if you have one. All the single aircraft I trained on were single box only, though thankfully my present steed is a lot better equipped
Davidt
Read the question - the questioner is going Gamston then Waddington / Scampton / Cranwell. Every reason to speak to Waddington.
As for the combined MATZ bit - although they are all conjoint down there Waddinton / Scampton is one combined MATZ (CMATZ) with Waddington the responsible controlling authority. Cranwell / Barkston is another CMATZ with Cranwell as the controlling authority.
Ham
Having had the deads getting a bit too close to my previous employers aeroplanes before they left Cranwell (their concept of 'north' of the railway line was a little bit ropey
) I was glad when they moved back further north - the respect was a bit lacking in those days but it's coming back now
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Topcat, I too have done that route a couple times, although usually NW to SE. I usually do your first suggestion, and what dufwer does, and speak to Waddington Zone first, then temporarily change to Gamston, then back to Waddington. The main reasoning behind this is that I am usually getting a FIS or RIS from Waddington anyway, well before I get near Gamston, so the decision is made for me. If I was coming from the west and not already talking to anyone, I'd probably do it the other way. Not sure there's really a CORRECT answer.
By the way, I can recommend Wickenby (just east of the zone) as a very friendly little airfield to stop off at en-route if required (visited for the first time on Monday).
By the way, I can recommend Wickenby (just east of the zone) as a very friendly little airfield to stop off at en-route if required (visited for the first time on Monday).
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Chilli, both of the gliding sites mentioned do operate outside
their published ours, there's no guarantee that your call will be answered, so you won't know.
As with para drop sites (and they don't always respond) the best
course of action is to avoid the overhead.
And as you're an ex gliding instructor, you should know that
in the vicinity of any club, on a soarable day gliders will be upto cloudbase..................dear chap.
Or you could end up squawking 7700.
7700
their published ours, there's no guarantee that your call will be answered, so you won't know.
As with para drop sites (and they don't always respond) the best
course of action is to avoid the overhead.
And as you're an ex gliding instructor, you should know that
in the vicinity of any club, on a soarable day gliders will be upto cloudbase..................dear chap.
Or you could end up squawking 7700.
7700
