European AIS Database
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I thought I was at least averagely computer-literate before I tried this site.......
After much effort, I finally got to the screen where I could look for a simple Aerodrome PIB (which worked for Andrew Sinclair).
After lots of thinking about it, I finally got a message at the bottom of the screen saying:
load: class com.teamead.ino.datauser.client.AerodromePIBApplet not found
I'msure it will be great if they ever get it to work!
Couldn't they have done it a bit more simply, though.......?
After much effort, I finally got to the screen where I could look for a simple Aerodrome PIB (which worked for Andrew Sinclair).
After lots of thinking about it, I finally got a message at the bottom of the screen saying:
load: class com.teamead.ino.datauser.client.AerodromePIBApplet not found
I'msure it will be great if they ever get it to work!
Couldn't they have done it a bit more simply, though.......?
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Aerobatic Flyer
The answer is YES. But if you pay a website designer, he wants to show that you got your money's worth.
Putting Micro$oft Powerpoint objects on a general-access website is bizzare. Most private users won't have this prog. Corporate users will, it comes with Office 200x, cost some £400. No wonder B. Gates makes so much money.
The answer is YES. But if you pay a website designer, he wants to show that you got your money's worth.
Putting Micro$oft Powerpoint objects on a general-access website is bizzare. Most private users won't have this prog. Corporate users will, it comes with Office 200x, cost some £400. No wonder B. Gates makes so much money.
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Usual anti-MS/anti-Bill Gates rhetoric aside, there is a free downloadable PPS viewer on the Microsoft website.
So you don't actually need to spend £400 or £0.04 - but that isn't quite such a thrilling headline...
So you don't actually need to spend £400 or £0.04 - but that isn't quite such a thrilling headline...
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It took me a while to get it sorted out so I sympathize with you there Aerobatic Flyer.
There is one point that is worth bringing up at this time and again it is the issue of this Q Line, sorry to bang on about it!
In the particular example I posted, this part
contains all the information that is required by a s/w developer in order to present the information graphically on a map. This is the part that is currently removed from the NOTAM prior to them being placed on the UK AIS AES tool as PIB. This is the difference between a NOTAM and a PIB. At the moment NATS/AIS and the CAA are considering whether they should release the Q Line. As both organisations are necessarily very structured in their working practices it takes time to discuss the ramifications of releasing the Q Line before they make a decision.
The interesting point is that the Q Line information above came direct from AED to me, the Public User, via the internet and AED is owned and controlled by Eurocontrol, so they have decided it is ok to release the Q Line. It is hoped that the CAA are able to come to the same conclusion as Eurocontrol and release the Q Line. The CAA may not agree for a variety of reasons unilaterally specific to the UK and are of course entitled to make an their own autonomous decision on this issue. The release of the Q Line coupled with direct data from the ADIMS database (via whatever firewall protection is deemed necessary) gives the GA world huge possibilities for accurate data manipulation without the need to parse a text file (i.e. recover date from a presentation primarily intended for visual/human use). In essence What we are after is data in a defined database-type format, rather than an unstructured and undefined text file which is what we are presently getting. With the raw data we know exactly what data appears where.
This is an ideal state and is possible from a technical point of view. There are, however, other surrounding issues that need more debate, negotiation and agreement by interested stakeholders including us the GA community. These issues are being actively pursued by a number of private flyers and representative organisations, but it is good that we all have an understanding of the issues.
There is one point that is worth bringing up at this time and again it is the issue of this Q Line, sorry to bang on about it!
In the particular example I posted, this part
<QLine>
<FIR>EGTT</FIR>
<Code23>RO</Code23>
<Code45>LP</Code45>
<Traffic>IV</Traffic>
<Purpose>NBO</Purpose>
<Scope>E</Scope>
<Lower>000</Lower>
<Upper>040</Upper>
</QLine>
<Coordinates>4932N00153W</Coordinates>
<Radius>50</Radius>
<FIR>EGTT</FIR>
<Code23>RO</Code23>
<Code45>LP</Code45>
<Traffic>IV</Traffic>
<Purpose>NBO</Purpose>
<Scope>E</Scope>
<Lower>000</Lower>
<Upper>040</Upper>
</QLine>
<Coordinates>4932N00153W</Coordinates>
<Radius>50</Radius>
The interesting point is that the Q Line information above came direct from AED to me, the Public User, via the internet and AED is owned and controlled by Eurocontrol, so they have decided it is ok to release the Q Line. It is hoped that the CAA are able to come to the same conclusion as Eurocontrol and release the Q Line. The CAA may not agree for a variety of reasons unilaterally specific to the UK and are of course entitled to make an their own autonomous decision on this issue. The release of the Q Line coupled with direct data from the ADIMS database (via whatever firewall protection is deemed necessary) gives the GA world huge possibilities for accurate data manipulation without the need to parse a text file (i.e. recover date from a presentation primarily intended for visual/human use). In essence What we are after is data in a defined database-type format, rather than an unstructured and undefined text file which is what we are presently getting. With the raw data we know exactly what data appears where.
This is an ideal state and is possible from a technical point of view. There are, however, other surrounding issues that need more debate, negotiation and agreement by interested stakeholders including us the GA community. These issues are being actively pursued by a number of private flyers and representative organisations, but it is good that we all have an understanding of the issues.
Last edited by Andrew Sinclair; 23rd Jul 2003 at 15:49.
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Well I can't get into it. I've only a dial-up and have already waited 5 min for something to happen - so I'm not installing BB just for it.
However, Mike, a little while ago you made an interesting comment
Being a bear of simple brains, can you/ anyone explain the physical difference between French International NOTAMs and French "regular?" NOTAMS. Once over the border, surely I need to avoid the same airspace/ be aware of other restrictions irrespective on whether I took off in Blighty or French France?
And therefore , what is the practical difference in content on the UK AIS w.r.t France as apposed to the French system?!?
However, Mike, a little while ago you made an interesting comment
Incidentally, a little nuggett of information I was not aware of. UK AIS only take the French International NOTAM, not the domeswtic series. Therefore if flying to France NOTAM from UKAIS will be good to your destination airfield. For onward flight within France you should check French NOTAM.
And therefore , what is the practical difference in content on the UK AIS w.r.t France as apposed to the French system?!?
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Not being privy to the way the French classify their NOTAM I can't give you a definitive answer, I was only passing on what I had been told by UK AIS.
ICAO Annex 15 allows for NOTAM to be grouped in Series. Recipients can then decide whether or not they wish to be on the distribution list for particular Series.
The NOTAM Series for the UK are listed in table 3.1.1 in GEN 3.1 of the UK AIP. The French AIP is not yet available on-line so I can't point you at it.
What you get from a briefing service or from UK AIS are not NOTAM, they are Pre-Flight Information Bulletins (PIB's) derived from NOTAM. The briefing service will decide which series are included in the data they use to produce the PIB. For example Series Q (Military Series (Sovereign Bases)) would not be much use in a brief for the UK FIR's.
Examples of things that could be in French domestic NOTAM but not in their International series:-
Regulatory notices relating to licensing of aircraft or pilots.
Facilities at airfields not available for International use.
Obstacles in the approach path at airfields not available for International use.
The EAD is slowly creeping forward. I couldn't get in at all at first, now I can, so they are obviously slowly sorting out the software. The prospect of having centralised access to European AIP's and AIC's is tempting, particularly as and when the electronic AIP becomes a reality (this will present the AIP in a fully searchable electronic format with hyperlinks rather than as images of paper pages). You would be able to download plates as required rather than subscribe to larege quantities of paper and their amendments, most of which you probably do not use.
Time will tell if it becomes a success.
Mike
ICAO Annex 15 allows for NOTAM to be grouped in Series. Recipients can then decide whether or not they wish to be on the distribution list for particular Series.
The NOTAM Series for the UK are listed in table 3.1.1 in GEN 3.1 of the UK AIP. The French AIP is not yet available on-line so I can't point you at it.
What you get from a briefing service or from UK AIS are not NOTAM, they are Pre-Flight Information Bulletins (PIB's) derived from NOTAM. The briefing service will decide which series are included in the data they use to produce the PIB. For example Series Q (Military Series (Sovereign Bases)) would not be much use in a brief for the UK FIR's.
Examples of things that could be in French domestic NOTAM but not in their International series:-
Regulatory notices relating to licensing of aircraft or pilots.
Facilities at airfields not available for International use.
Obstacles in the approach path at airfields not available for International use.
The EAD is slowly creeping forward. I couldn't get in at all at first, now I can, so they are obviously slowly sorting out the software. The prospect of having centralised access to European AIP's and AIC's is tempting, particularly as and when the electronic AIP becomes a reality (this will present the AIP in a fully searchable electronic format with hyperlinks rather than as images of paper pages). You would be able to download plates as required rather than subscribe to larege quantities of paper and their amendments, most of which you probably do not use.
Time will tell if it becomes a success.
Mike
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Mike,
Thanks for your answer - you made some good points about distinguishing the different types of NOTAM. We'll I guess we're all in the dark a bit over the French system.
Interestingly, I do recall last time I flew to France (about 3 weeks ago) the UK AIS system did given me the French NOTAM telling me I couldn't go to Iraq! So- who knows!
D&O
Also, Mike, I'd just like to add my (belated) thanks to you for all the work you put into the UK AIS system. I'm sure without it we would not have a useable system today. As you say, lets see what happens on this EU system.
Thanks for your answer - you made some good points about distinguishing the different types of NOTAM. We'll I guess we're all in the dark a bit over the French system.
Interestingly, I do recall last time I flew to France (about 3 weeks ago) the UK AIS system did given me the French NOTAM telling me I couldn't go to Iraq! So- who knows!
D&O
Also, Mike, I'd just like to add my (belated) thanks to you for all the work you put into the UK AIS system. I'm sure without it we would not have a useable system today. As you say, lets see what happens on this EU system.
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I was digging around the EAD and managed to download AIPs from different countries from the Published AIP Management System (PAMS) section of the database. I downloaded the part of the French AIP that deals with NOTAM series that Mike mentioned above and placed it here
The paragraph in question is 3.1.3.2 a). Left hand text column for French readers, right hand column for English.
The EAD isn't particularly easy to use at first, but once you have played with it a bit it is a very useful source of AIP/AIC & NOTAM/PIB info for all ICAO countries.
If anyone wants anything at any time and can't get it to work send me an e-mail or PM and I will download the document and send it to you or place it on an FTP server with a link like the one above.
I did notice that it is changing now quite rapidly with different screen information and now a disclaimer has appeared so the project team are definately working away there in Stuttgart!
The paragraph in question is 3.1.3.2 a). Left hand text column for French readers, right hand column for English.
The EAD isn't particularly easy to use at first, but once you have played with it a bit it is a very useful source of AIP/AIC & NOTAM/PIB info for all ICAO countries.
If anyone wants anything at any time and can't get it to work send me an e-mail or PM and I will download the document and send it to you or place it on an FTP server with a link like the one above.
I did notice that it is changing now quite rapidly with different screen information and now a disclaimer has appeared so the project team are definately working away there in Stuttgart!
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Thanks for that Andrew
Unfortunately the French AIP is particularly vague about the content of their NOTAM series. They only have three, A,B & C
"Series A, Information of a general international scope and concerning more particularly long range flights (for international publication)
Series B, Information of a limited international scope and concerning more particularly other flights (restricted international publication limited to the European region)
Series C, Information of a limited european scope"
I assume that Series C is the one UK AIS do not get and will confirm this, however even if we do have this confirmed it will be of precious little help in working out what we don't get!
If anyone wants a scapegoat for the next few days' weather I'm your man. Having decided to do a few days sailing the forecast has changed to "heavy rain".
Mike
Unfortunately the French AIP is particularly vague about the content of their NOTAM series. They only have three, A,B & C
"Series A, Information of a general international scope and concerning more particularly long range flights (for international publication)
Series B, Information of a limited international scope and concerning more particularly other flights (restricted international publication limited to the European region)
Series C, Information of a limited european scope"
I assume that Series C is the one UK AIS do not get and will confirm this, however even if we do have this confirmed it will be of precious little help in working out what we don't get!
If anyone wants a scapegoat for the next few days' weather I'm your man. Having decided to do a few days sailing the forecast has changed to "heavy rain".
Mike
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I am a novice in understanding IT, but as far as I know just from looking at the "About" information under the help screens my Browser is IE V6.0 and my Operating System is WinXP.
The way I managed to access the EAD database was just following the download instructions for the Java and then just enetered the site following the links. I had to spend quite a bit of time working our how to use it and I didn't really have much success until I upgraded to broadband (which I had intended to do anyway) then it started to perform better.
I agree with your comment Mike about vague French AIP. I looked at a few different countries and I must say by far and away the most comprehensive was UK IAIP.
The way I managed to access the EAD database was just following the download instructions for the Java and then just enetered the site following the links. I had to spend quite a bit of time working our how to use it and I didn't really have much success until I upgraded to broadband (which I had intended to do anyway) then it started to perform better.
I agree with your comment Mike about vague French AIP. I looked at a few different countries and I must say by far and away the most comprehensive was UK IAIP.
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IO540,
This is being discussed at the moment with NATS/AIS and the CAA for UK NOTAMS. Mike Cross is leading the discussions. If you use the search function on this forum you will pick up many hits that may help explain it.
In principle Eurocontrol and UK AIS purchased off the shelf products that don't include this type of GUI. That doesn't stop other external software developers offering a product that does offer this though. They would need to have the Q line released in a recognised database format to produce a trustworthy and efficient product. This is one of the objectives of the ongoing discussions with NATS/AIS and CAA.
Mike knows more of the nitty gritty than I do.
This is being discussed at the moment with NATS/AIS and the CAA for UK NOTAMS. Mike Cross is leading the discussions. If you use the search function on this forum you will pick up many hits that may help explain it.
In principle Eurocontrol and UK AIS purchased off the shelf products that don't include this type of GUI. That doesn't stop other external software developers offering a product that does offer this though. They would need to have the Q line released in a recognised database format to produce a trustworthy and efficient product. This is one of the objectives of the ongoing discussions with NATS/AIS and CAA.
Mike knows more of the nitty gritty than I do.
Last edited by Andrew Sinclair; 24th Jul 2003 at 19:08.
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I'm no expert on display systems but I can recognise all sorts of difficulties with graphic display.
Simply drawing a circle on the map is not the answer. NOTAM affecting an entire FIR would put multiple circles over the same area and other NOTAM would cause large numbers of overlapping circles. Some Navaids have ranges of 150 to 250 nm so you can imagine the size of circles they would generate. I don't know how many pages an FIR brief is running at at the moment but it was around the 30 pages mark and we have two FIR's covering the British Isles so that's a hell of a lot of circles.
At the same time the current method is not particularly intuitive. If we could get access to the raw data we could try some alternative approaches.
I'm a user of NavBox Pro and a fan of its interface. You have a resizeable map and simply draw on it using your mouse. The program calculates your weight and balance, fuel burn, does your PLOG, produces a list of frequencies and can do your flight plan. Wouldn't it be great if it also produced a list of NOTAM affecting your route?
I have no VOR or ADF so wouldn't it be nice if I could check a couple of boxes to omit NOTAM relating to them from my brief?
I suspect that the ideal answer will turn out to be some sort of interface where you draw your intended route on the map or draw the outline of the area in which you intend to operate, put in the intended date/time and operating height and it comes back with the relevant data.
Plotting the location and radii of Nav Warnings would be useful in showing "avoid" areas. However a map is two-dimensional while we work in three dimensions so there may not be any need to avoid if you are outside the affected height band.
The hold-up at the moment is the CAA. NATS have no objection to the release of the data it is the CAA (ADAP1) which is holding things up.
I'd be interested in any comments re the above.
Mike
Simply drawing a circle on the map is not the answer. NOTAM affecting an entire FIR would put multiple circles over the same area and other NOTAM would cause large numbers of overlapping circles. Some Navaids have ranges of 150 to 250 nm so you can imagine the size of circles they would generate. I don't know how many pages an FIR brief is running at at the moment but it was around the 30 pages mark and we have two FIR's covering the British Isles so that's a hell of a lot of circles.
At the same time the current method is not particularly intuitive. If we could get access to the raw data we could try some alternative approaches.
I'm a user of NavBox Pro and a fan of its interface. You have a resizeable map and simply draw on it using your mouse. The program calculates your weight and balance, fuel burn, does your PLOG, produces a list of frequencies and can do your flight plan. Wouldn't it be great if it also produced a list of NOTAM affecting your route?
I have no VOR or ADF so wouldn't it be nice if I could check a couple of boxes to omit NOTAM relating to them from my brief?
I suspect that the ideal answer will turn out to be some sort of interface where you draw your intended route on the map or draw the outline of the area in which you intend to operate, put in the intended date/time and operating height and it comes back with the relevant data.
Plotting the location and radii of Nav Warnings would be useful in showing "avoid" areas. However a map is two-dimensional while we work in three dimensions so there may not be any need to avoid if you are outside the affected height band.
The hold-up at the moment is the CAA. NATS have no objection to the release of the data it is the CAA (ADAP1) which is holding things up.
I'd be interested in any comments re the above.
Mike
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Has anybody looked at this?
http://www.eurocontrol.int/ead/libra...tware/esi.html
I downloaded the client API kit and tried to run the test client. When it complained that I didn't have a private key, I thought I'd check here first before potentially wasting more of my time.
http://www.eurocontrol.int/ead/libra...tware/esi.html
I downloaded the client API kit and tried to run the test client. When it complained that I didn't have a private key, I thought I'd check here first before potentially wasting more of my time.
peg20
Unfortunately the ESI is designed for system to system connectivity and requires you to have VPN access (or a leased line) to the EAD network. Once you've established that, service fees for connection to the EAD are Euro 10,000 per year and up.
Unfortunately the ESI is designed for system to system connectivity and requires you to have VPN access (or a leased line) to the EAD network. Once you've established that, service fees for connection to the EAD are Euro 10,000 per year and up.