Most farcical lesson yet
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Cambridge, England, EU
Posts: 3,443
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Most farcical lesson yet
The detail is some dual circuits followed by solo circuits; which I haven't been able to do the last several booked lessons due to weather. TAF looked OK apart from the PROB30 TEMPO G36KT.
Actual weather is fine, none of the showers look too close to the circuit. But just as we're going out of the door we're handed a strong wind alert. F**k, says the instructor, we'll go anyway and see what happens.
So we get in a plane. I ask the instructor if the starting problems are usual for this a/c, he says no problem. I ask whether it matters that the suction guage is way above the top of the green arc, he says we'll report it when we get down.
We fly two circuits. On the third climb out it's the instructor, not me, who notices that the oil pressure needle is on the red line (whoops - from now on I'll be more careful about those checks, you learn something every time). So he takes over, lands and taxis to the maintenance hangar. Won't charge you for that last circuit he says, and we get another plane.
After extending downwind far enough that we get decent separation from the airliner that took off about when we wanted to turn base leg I'm eventually on final having flown a very odd shaped circuit. We then notice that whilst we've been faffing round changing planes one of those showers has got rather nearer ... ATC calls up in friendly chatty manner and tells us that it's gusting something like 26kt in all directions on the surface.
I keep going, we get thrown about a bit, occasional blobs of heavy rain. After a bit the instructor takes control - at that point I was still happy flying the approach but ... about one and a half seconds after the instructor took over we were thrown about so violently that I would have given him control then anyway. (I've been thrown about much worse than that in a light aircraft, but not when I was flying and not anywhere near that close to the ground.)
By now we are being thrown about all over the place, and I'm not finding that easy to see the runway through the now continuous heavy rain with just the normal runway lights; ATC turn on some more so the place is lit up like a Christmas tree. Even though we're still lurching sideways and up and down when we're ten feet above the ground the instructor does a nice smooth landing; quite impressive.
So, four circuits flown, two landings done, only the first two circuits charged for.
I guess it wasn't a complete waste of time and money, because I did learn to take looking at the Ts&Ps more seriously.
Actual weather is fine, none of the showers look too close to the circuit. But just as we're going out of the door we're handed a strong wind alert. F**k, says the instructor, we'll go anyway and see what happens.
So we get in a plane. I ask the instructor if the starting problems are usual for this a/c, he says no problem. I ask whether it matters that the suction guage is way above the top of the green arc, he says we'll report it when we get down.
We fly two circuits. On the third climb out it's the instructor, not me, who notices that the oil pressure needle is on the red line (whoops - from now on I'll be more careful about those checks, you learn something every time). So he takes over, lands and taxis to the maintenance hangar. Won't charge you for that last circuit he says, and we get another plane.
After extending downwind far enough that we get decent separation from the airliner that took off about when we wanted to turn base leg I'm eventually on final having flown a very odd shaped circuit. We then notice that whilst we've been faffing round changing planes one of those showers has got rather nearer ... ATC calls up in friendly chatty manner and tells us that it's gusting something like 26kt in all directions on the surface.
I keep going, we get thrown about a bit, occasional blobs of heavy rain. After a bit the instructor takes control - at that point I was still happy flying the approach but ... about one and a half seconds after the instructor took over we were thrown about so violently that I would have given him control then anyway. (I've been thrown about much worse than that in a light aircraft, but not when I was flying and not anywhere near that close to the ground.)
By now we are being thrown about all over the place, and I'm not finding that easy to see the runway through the now continuous heavy rain with just the normal runway lights; ATC turn on some more so the place is lit up like a Christmas tree. Even though we're still lurching sideways and up and down when we're ten feet above the ground the instructor does a nice smooth landing; quite impressive.
So, four circuits flown, two landings done, only the first two circuits charged for.
I guess it wasn't a complete waste of time and money, because I did learn to take looking at the Ts&Ps more seriously.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 4,631
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well what a good experience. You could spend your whole time training towards your PPL (and I assume that is why you were with an instructor) in benign conditions, whereas you now have first hand experience of Mother nature springing a few surprises. It will stand you in good sted.
I never could understand those people who pass their IMC having never seen the inside of a cloud throughout their training!
I never could understand those people who pass their IMC having never seen the inside of a cloud throughout their training!
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 588
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re-read your post...it'll show you how much you actually learnt today.
I did most of my circuit flying in windy conditions and got a bit caught out on my GFT when the wind was flat calm and I kept landing nearer the upwind threshold than the landing one!
The weather in the UK sucks and you will get caught out again...at least you've experienced it already...rather than a farce, I think today's lesson was actually quite valuable.
that said, I wasn't brave enough to get the Cub out today!!
I did most of my circuit flying in windy conditions and got a bit caught out on my GFT when the wind was flat calm and I kept landing nearer the upwind threshold than the landing one!
The weather in the UK sucks and you will get caught out again...at least you've experienced it already...rather than a farce, I think today's lesson was actually quite valuable.
that said, I wasn't brave enough to get the Cub out today!!
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Croydon (but really from Barnsley)
Age: 64
Posts: 262
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nice. Not had one quite that bad, but when I was doing circuits we did get one day where it was really gusty and bouncy.
I was having to do a lot of work trying to adjust for gusts, and I think it was on the second time round my instructor said I could stop on the next one if I thought this was too much.
So I said that I was OK with it, and I reckoned it would be good experience in poor weather conditions.
Admittedly, my landings were somewhat off the centre line, but at least I was on the runway!
I was having to do a lot of work trying to adjust for gusts, and I think it was on the second time round my instructor said I could stop on the next one if I thought this was too much.
So I said that I was OK with it, and I reckoned it would be good experience in poor weather conditions.
Admittedly, my landings were somewhat off the centre line, but at least I was on the runway!
Flies for fun
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Wishing it was somewhere sunny!
Posts: 789
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hmmm, plenty of time to learn about windshear, crosswinds, gusts, haze, turbulence once clutching ones own PPL. I'm not sure that training in anything other than cavok is real value for money for pre solo students! Master the basics before learning the tricky stuff. The tricky bits of experience come whether you want them or not - eventually! My opinion is that G20 straight down the rway is about max for a student!
The Original Whirly
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Belper, Derbyshire, UK
Posts: 4,326
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
OK, not something you'd choose to do. But an excellent learning experience all the same. Without such things, you end up as a new PPL thinking a little bit more wind and a few gusts is no big deal and you can handle it. Now you know what it's really like. And as you say, you know those checks on Ts and Ps are there for a purpose, not to overload your memory and sound good.
I seriously worry about the title you chose for this thread....if you really meant it.
I seriously worry about the title you chose for this thread....if you really meant it.
Suave yet Shallow
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: half way between the gutter and the stars.
Posts: 343
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you're going to experience a bit of rough weather then far better having an instructor next to you.
It'll also serve as a good yard-stick in future...when you look out...desperate to 'just do a couple of circuits before the weather closes in' you'll probably think back to that day and think twice before going up.
But it sounds like you've got a good club...where they VOLUNTARILY said we wont charge for the last circuit.
It'll also serve as a good yard-stick in future...when you look out...desperate to 'just do a couple of circuits before the weather closes in' you'll probably think back to that day and think twice before going up.
But it sounds like you've got a good club...where they VOLUNTARILY said we wont charge for the last circuit.
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Kent
Posts: 239
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I suspect the thread title is right.
Not sure about the value myself. How many GA PPL’s would proceed with a flight with a TAF of “PROB30 TEMPO G36KT”?
Moderate Xwind experience – most definitely is beneficial as a learning environment, but I just don’t see how a very blustery day can be…
Not sure about the value myself. How many GA PPL’s would proceed with a flight with a TAF of “PROB30 TEMPO G36KT”?
Moderate Xwind experience – most definitely is beneficial as a learning environment, but I just don’t see how a very blustery day can be…
Suave yet Shallow
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: half way between the gutter and the stars.
Posts: 343
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have to disagree with KCDW here,
"How many GA PPL’s would proceed with a flight with a TAF of “PROB30 TEMPO G36KT”
- well exactly..how many would? some wouldn't,..but I bet someone, somewhere when wanting to get home would try it...Now Gertrude knows from first hand experience what its like and will know not to play with it.
But then again...thats just my take on things
"How many GA PPL’s would proceed with a flight with a TAF of “PROB30 TEMPO G36KT”
- well exactly..how many would? some wouldn't,..but I bet someone, somewhere when wanting to get home would try it...Now Gertrude knows from first hand experience what its like and will know not to play with it.
But then again...thats just my take on things
The Original Whirly
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Belper, Derbyshire, UK
Posts: 4,326
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
KCDW,
When I was a very new PPL I went down to the airfield two weekends in a row, and on both days decided not to fly due to marginal weather. The second time a nearly-qualified student implied quite strongly that I was a wimp, saying he couldn't wait to get out by himself. Judging by the nods of agreement as he spoke, he wasn't alone. But I didn't go because I'd had my QXC cancelled in similar wx; I'd persuaded my instructor I could cope; then not been able to land in the gusty crosswind when he checked me out. It was a real eye-opener for me at the time. Does that answer your question of "how many" etc?
As I said, not something you'd choose, or spend hours doing. But four circuits, and only paying for two! And learning from experience just what a difference the wx can make. Sounds good to me.
When I was a very new PPL I went down to the airfield two weekends in a row, and on both days decided not to fly due to marginal weather. The second time a nearly-qualified student implied quite strongly that I was a wimp, saying he couldn't wait to get out by himself. Judging by the nods of agreement as he spoke, he wasn't alone. But I didn't go because I'd had my QXC cancelled in similar wx; I'd persuaded my instructor I could cope; then not been able to land in the gusty crosswind when he checked me out. It was a real eye-opener for me at the time. Does that answer your question of "how many" etc?
As I said, not something you'd choose, or spend hours doing. But four circuits, and only paying for two! And learning from experience just what a difference the wx can make. Sounds good to me.
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Kent
Posts: 239
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Whirly, Topcat450
I guess I must be a bit of a fair weather flyer / wimp
. But, I still disagree (free world - right ). Let’s recap…
“about one and a half seconds after the instructor took over we were thrown about so violently that I would have given him control then anyway.”
“gusting something like 26kt in all directions on the surface”
“By now we are being thrown about all over the place, and I'm not finding that easy to see the runway”
And this is aside from the instructor’s rather slack attitude.
Seriously guys, Gertrude the Wombat could have got the same level of ‘instruction’ sitting in that nightmare whirlitzer at Biggin Hill Airfair on a rainy day.
Ps has anybody tried that whirlitzer and not felt physically sick?
I guess I must be a bit of a fair weather flyer / wimp
. But, I still disagree (free world - right ). Let’s recap…“about one and a half seconds after the instructor took over we were thrown about so violently that I would have given him control then anyway.”
“gusting something like 26kt in all directions on the surface”
“By now we are being thrown about all over the place, and I'm not finding that easy to see the runway”
And this is aside from the instructor’s rather slack attitude.
Seriously guys, Gertrude the Wombat could have got the same level of ‘instruction’ sitting in that nightmare whirlitzer at Biggin Hill Airfair on a rainy day.
Ps has anybody tried that whirlitzer and not felt physically sick?
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 369
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You definatly have a good club not charging you for some flying time, though whether its flyable is a matter of opinion. I personally would have gone up with an instructor in that while I was training to gain the experience. I would probably go up now with an instructor if one is available. As for flying solo with that forcast I definatly wouldnt in a PA28 but I may consider it in a PA38 after taking advice.
Guest
Posts: n/a
How many GA PPL’s would proceed with a flight with a TAF of “PROB30 TEMPO G36KT”?
Not me. I use a rule of thumb that when the mean wind speed exceeds 50% of the clean stall speed, I don't go.
My a/c stalls clean at about 50kias. It's reasonable to assume that the forecast was something like 20G36, so the mean speed would have been 28kts.
A few hundred hours of experience teaches me that this takes controllability to an area of the envelope that I don't want to play in, especially in this low powered aeroplane where a GA is always marginal with windshear about.
As it happens, my day job inolves designing and delivering training courses and I disagree quite strongly that this was a great learning experience for the student on the evidence presented.
There does not seem to have been a brief about the effects of strong winds and the techniques for dealing with these (we know the strong wind warning was received just before boarding) and reading between the lines, Gertrude was somewhat alarmed by the experience (which is a healthy sign.)
The learning cycle involves understanding the theory, applying the theorey practically, experiencing the effects and then refelcting on the integrated experience to make sense/learn.
Where was this amount of thought applied by the instructor?
Result, a confused Getrude and Whirly, I think her thread title calls it right when you look through her eyes.
Not me. I use a rule of thumb that when the mean wind speed exceeds 50% of the clean stall speed, I don't go.
My a/c stalls clean at about 50kias. It's reasonable to assume that the forecast was something like 20G36, so the mean speed would have been 28kts.
A few hundred hours of experience teaches me that this takes controllability to an area of the envelope that I don't want to play in, especially in this low powered aeroplane where a GA is always marginal with windshear about.
As it happens, my day job inolves designing and delivering training courses and I disagree quite strongly that this was a great learning experience for the student on the evidence presented.
There does not seem to have been a brief about the effects of strong winds and the techniques for dealing with these (we know the strong wind warning was received just before boarding) and reading between the lines, Gertrude was somewhat alarmed by the experience (which is a healthy sign.)
The learning cycle involves understanding the theory, applying the theorey practically, experiencing the effects and then refelcting on the integrated experience to make sense/learn.
Where was this amount of thought applied by the instructor?
Result, a confused Getrude and Whirly, I think her thread title calls it right when you look through her eyes.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Manchester
Posts: 142
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
TAF =“PROB30 TEMPO G36KT”!!!!
Anyone who goes up in that just for social flying belongs to the " Needy or Greedy" club.
Nevertheless I do agree that valuable lessons were learnt and one day one might look back and thank god you had the experience of the wind, how many PPL's go though the course without getting the blast of x-winds, quite a number it would seem.
Anyone who goes up in that just for social flying belongs to the " Needy or Greedy" club.
Nevertheless I do agree that valuable lessons were learnt and one day one might look back and thank god you had the experience of the wind, how many PPL's go though the course without getting the blast of x-winds, quite a number it would seem.
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 39
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think that there was something missing from the lesson if the facts are as reported - choice.
I assume that your instructor knew the conditions to be safe and within his own capabilities, then it should be up to the student wether to go or not. The student can only make that decision with a good brief on what to expect.
If the instructor considered that the conditions were safe but that the student may not like them, or may not learn what he was expecting to learn, then I think it vitally important to give the student all the information he needs to make his own decision. This means fully briefing the student on what to expect and what he may and may not get out of the lesson. After that it's the student's money and his choice. Looks like you didn't have that information with which to make the decision.
Of course, this all assumes that the conditions are known to be within the instructor's and aeroplane's ability - if not, or if it's unclear, then it's an absolute no-brainer.
By the way, it's not clear wether you thought that the lesson was valuable - what did you make of it?
I assume that your instructor knew the conditions to be safe and within his own capabilities, then it should be up to the student wether to go or not. The student can only make that decision with a good brief on what to expect.
If the instructor considered that the conditions were safe but that the student may not like them, or may not learn what he was expecting to learn, then I think it vitally important to give the student all the information he needs to make his own decision. This means fully briefing the student on what to expect and what he may and may not get out of the lesson. After that it's the student's money and his choice. Looks like you didn't have that information with which to make the decision.
Of course, this all assumes that the conditions are known to be within the instructor's and aeroplane's ability - if not, or if it's unclear, then it's an absolute no-brainer.
By the way, it's not clear wether you thought that the lesson was valuable - what did you make of it?
Simplicate and Add Lightness
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: EGSG, mainly
Posts: 254
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Strange how this one has polarised opinion.
I was up (and down, and side-to-side) at the exact same time at Stapleford doing my first familiariation flight in a new type. [No longer BlokeInAnArcher, or even BlokeFormerlyKnownAsBlokeInAnArcher...
]
It was certainly a 'learning experience' but, as I said to the FI over a pint or three afterwards, I would never have gone up in those conditions on my own. I did learn a lot about how the plane handles at the edge of the envelope and my current personal limitations in handling it.
To my point: I wasn't scared because during my early 'training' (in a different place) I had several experiences like Gertrude's. I think it will stand you in good stead and help your decision-making in the future.
Although I hate the phrase, I found learning to fly really was a 'character building' experience. I was shocked about some of the things it revealed to me in my character (and I'm not talking about any drinking-related incidents...), and in particular how high my tolerance for bullsh*t was when someone called themselves an instructor.
Notwithstanding my comments about the value of this particular experience, my advice to Gertrude is to take control of your
flight training - no-one else will!
Good Luck.
I was up (and down, and side-to-side) at the exact same time at Stapleford doing my first familiariation flight in a new type. [No longer BlokeInAnArcher, or even BlokeFormerlyKnownAsBlokeInAnArcher...
]It was certainly a 'learning experience' but, as I said to the FI over a pint or three afterwards, I would never have gone up in those conditions on my own. I did learn a lot about how the plane handles at the edge of the envelope and my current personal limitations in handling it.
To my point: I wasn't scared because during my early 'training' (in a different place) I had several experiences like Gertrude's. I think it will stand you in good stead and help your decision-making in the future.
Although I hate the phrase, I found learning to fly really was a 'character building' experience. I was shocked about some of the things it revealed to me in my character (and I'm not talking about any drinking-related incidents...), and in particular how high my tolerance for bullsh*t was when someone called themselves an instructor.
Notwithstanding my comments about the value of this particular experience, my advice to Gertrude is to take control of your
flight training - no-one else will!
Good Luck.
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 233
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
An observation, or probably more a question.
There seems no question of what our nameless instructor did, and that it's a valuable learning experience for Gertrude. The question in my mind is why?
- Was he/she was suffering pressonitis, or didn't consider sensible operating limits and endangered an aircraft, themselves and a student?
- Or did he/she judge that it was within their own personal limits, and that it was an opportunity to safely demonstrate to a student what unpleasant conditions can actually do to you and hopefully inject a useful lesson that could save their life later?
If the former, I'd suggest that the instructor should be shot - slowly! If the latter, then they are probably a thoughtful and competent instructor of the type we should all hope to learn from occasionally.
Of-course, who if asked will admit to the former?
P
There seems no question of what our nameless instructor did, and that it's a valuable learning experience for Gertrude. The question in my mind is why?
- Was he/she was suffering pressonitis, or didn't consider sensible operating limits and endangered an aircraft, themselves and a student?
- Or did he/she judge that it was within their own personal limits, and that it was an opportunity to safely demonstrate to a student what unpleasant conditions can actually do to you and hopefully inject a useful lesson that could save their life later?
If the former, I'd suggest that the instructor should be shot - slowly! If the latter, then they are probably a thoughtful and competent instructor of the type we should all hope to learn from occasionally.
Of-course, who if asked will admit to the former?
P
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Manchester, UK
Posts: 492
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Along the lines of Pilotage's post.......
I was potentially in a similar position last Saturday. Having flown up the country from Popham, I was positioning to land at Barton when a squall came through. Previously, I'd heard someone reporting 40 kts in a squall at Sleap, so when Barton reported 12 kts I thought "hmmm, I bet it'll get worse than that any second."
On turning final 27, I started getting bounced around as the wind started gusting up, but still only being reported at 16 kts 200 deg.
However:
Knowing the forecast was for squalls & associated gusts
Knowing what had happened at Sleap
Experiencing windshear and turbulence at 500 feet
... I elected to power up climb away and hold off to the north for 5 minutes whilst the shower went through. The tower told me when the wind was settling again, back I go and bingo, nice smooth approach, nice landing, no panic, no problem. End of an enjoyable flight.
I would suggest instructor in question in the original scenario wanted to show who was in charge, but in doing so he chose to challenge Mother Nature & ignore the bit in the forecast that said TEMPO.
In the particular scenario he just about won, but at what cost? Next time, he could do it again and lose. Worse still, his erstwhile student, now qualified may well make the wrong decision and lose.
I was potentially in a similar position last Saturday. Having flown up the country from Popham, I was positioning to land at Barton when a squall came through. Previously, I'd heard someone reporting 40 kts in a squall at Sleap, so when Barton reported 12 kts I thought "hmmm, I bet it'll get worse than that any second."
On turning final 27, I started getting bounced around as the wind started gusting up, but still only being reported at 16 kts 200 deg.
However:
Knowing the forecast was for squalls & associated gusts
Knowing what had happened at Sleap
Experiencing windshear and turbulence at 500 feet
... I elected to power up climb away and hold off to the north for 5 minutes whilst the shower went through. The tower told me when the wind was settling again, back I go and bingo, nice smooth approach, nice landing, no panic, no problem. End of an enjoyable flight.
I would suggest instructor in question in the original scenario wanted to show who was in charge, but in doing so he chose to challenge Mother Nature & ignore the bit in the forecast that said TEMPO.
In the particular scenario he just about won, but at what cost? Next time, he could do it again and lose. Worse still, his erstwhile student, now qualified may well make the wrong decision and lose.