Most farcical lesson yet
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I think that this thread has thrown up a couple of interesting issues about PPL training and PPL trainees. What is clear is that different people learn in different ways; for my part, when I was doing the PPL course, I flew in all manner of conditions with instructors whom I saw as godlike. Confidence is built by such things especially when one is fortunate enough to have instructors who never give cause to quetsion their godlike status. WHether this was luck, pure skill by the instructor or ignorance on my part is irrelevant. I had confidence, we flew in ****ty conditions, I learned a lot. (Not just what I could safley fly in, but also what was beyond my skill level).
A N Other ppl trainee, may have been set back by flying in bad conditions as a result of fear, poor instuction, lack of faith in the instructor etc, and AN Yetanother may have taken it as a gungho signal to fly in anything (and be a statistic) Penis asbestos.
Where this drivel is leading is that one student's excellent learning exerince is anothers terrifing waste of money, it's up to the instructor to use his or her skill to appraise the learning style of each student.
Looking back, I firmly believe there is no such thing as a waste of experince, even if you did not enjoy it. If you do not learn anything from it, stop flying now before you kill yourself.
A N Other ppl trainee, may have been set back by flying in bad conditions as a result of fear, poor instuction, lack of faith in the instructor etc, and AN Yetanother may have taken it as a gungho signal to fly in anything (and be a statistic) Penis asbestos.
Where this drivel is leading is that one student's excellent learning exerince is anothers terrifing waste of money, it's up to the instructor to use his or her skill to appraise the learning style of each student.
Looking back, I firmly believe there is no such thing as a waste of experince, even if you did not enjoy it. If you do not learn anything from it, stop flying now before you kill yourself.
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OK, maybe I should have included some smilies.
I'm sure the instructor was well within his capabilities on this flight and totally safe. I am aware of the learning opportunities of such an experience; and I know what I'd have done on my own, which would have been to fly around for a few minutes and see if the shower went away, and if not divert. (Although my current retraining hasn't got as far as brushing up my nav skills I think I could have followed the motorway for five miles to the obvious alternate.)
What I failed to mention was that this took place the day before the local elections, and really it was a bit of a cheek for me to book a flying lesson that afternoon anyway when I had about 27,000 other things to do before going to bed in terms of moving round people, bits of paper, data, other stuff, ready for polling day. I spent 2.5 hours at the airport and learnt to take Ts&Ps seriously (I've seen showers and gusts before) instead of the expected 1.5 hours doing solo circuits. Yes, that might one day save my life, but I'd have preferred that lesson on another day. Let's remember the smilies this time:
Oh, and my mate won the election, so I got away with taking the time off 
I'm sure the instructor was well within his capabilities on this flight and totally safe. I am aware of the learning opportunities of such an experience; and I know what I'd have done on my own, which would have been to fly around for a few minutes and see if the shower went away, and if not divert. (Although my current retraining hasn't got as far as brushing up my nav skills I think I could have followed the motorway for five miles to the obvious alternate.)
What I failed to mention was that this took place the day before the local elections, and really it was a bit of a cheek for me to book a flying lesson that afternoon anyway when I had about 27,000 other things to do before going to bed in terms of moving round people, bits of paper, data, other stuff, ready for polling day. I spent 2.5 hours at the airport and learnt to take Ts&Ps seriously (I've seen showers and gusts before) instead of the expected 1.5 hours doing solo circuits. Yes, that might one day save my life, but I'd have preferred that lesson on another day. Let's remember the smilies this time:
Oh, and my mate won the election, so I got away with taking the time off
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You always learn something, but the question is whether the learning is valid/appropriate/helpful.
e.g. if you have a boss at work who dismisses every suggestion you make, then you learn not to bother.
There is an assumption on this thread that learning per se is a good thing, but as a professional in the area of consulting/management education I know that it is not.
Gertrude's second reply suggests that there is little, if any, damage from this detail and that's great; however, unless there is some critical information missing, the instructor didn't do a great job and I'm amazed that some people think that the flying club was 'benevolent' in not charging the time when their aircraft was 'unfit for the purpose intended' due to low oil pressure (See the relevant consumer legislation.) The club was being commercially clever in my opiion and all credit to them for this.
I once had an FBO in the States argue that I should pay for cancelling a detail in an Arrer with a prop governer seal failure, which became evident when a huge pool of oil was discovered on the ground, with deposits all over the engine supports etc during the prre-flight.
they soon changed their mind when I called the FAA inspector on the field.
If you do not learn anything from it
e.g. if you have a boss at work who dismisses every suggestion you make, then you learn not to bother.
There is an assumption on this thread that learning per se is a good thing, but as a professional in the area of consulting/management education I know that it is not.
Gertrude's second reply suggests that there is little, if any, damage from this detail and that's great; however, unless there is some critical information missing, the instructor didn't do a great job and I'm amazed that some people think that the flying club was 'benevolent' in not charging the time when their aircraft was 'unfit for the purpose intended' due to low oil pressure (See the relevant consumer legislation.) The club was being commercially clever in my opiion and all credit to them for this.
I once had an FBO in the States argue that I should pay for cancelling a detail in an Arrer with a prop governer seal failure, which became evident when a huge pool of oil was discovered on the ground, with deposits all over the engine supports etc during the prre-flight.
they soon changed their mind when I called the FAA inspector on the field.
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F3G
if you have a boss at work who dismisses every suggestion you make, then you learn not to bother
You see, that's what I mean, different people learn different things from an experience. In your example, the lesson is not don't bother, the lesson is that working for someone else sucks
if you have a boss at work who dismisses every suggestion you make, then you learn not to bother
You see, that's what I mean, different people learn different things from an experience. In your example, the lesson is not don't bother, the lesson is that working for someone else sucks
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What a bunch of wet towels are there about in GA flying!
Or at least that is what you could conclude from reading this thread.
Of course everyone has to fly within the limits of their experience and comfort level but G has been allowed to push the envelope a bit under the (what I read to be) experienced guidance of a good instructor.
Just because other people have more experience and are therefore happy to fly in conditions which are outside your personal level does not necessarily mean that they are idiots.
Way too much judgementing going on here.
I think that anyone who runs a flying school and does not charge when things like these happen needs commending and can hardly be accused of pressonitis.
May be some folk on here need to get out more often and fly in more challenging conditions, if need be with an instructor, rather than just do some armchair driving.
FD
Or at least that is what you could conclude from reading this thread.
Of course everyone has to fly within the limits of their experience and comfort level but G has been allowed to push the envelope a bit under the (what I read to be) experienced guidance of a good instructor.
Just because other people have more experience and are therefore happy to fly in conditions which are outside your personal level does not necessarily mean that they are idiots.
Way too much judgementing going on here.
I think that anyone who runs a flying school and does not charge when things like these happen needs commending and can hardly be accused of pressonitis.
May be some folk on here need to get out more often and fly in more challenging conditions, if need be with an instructor, rather than just do some armchair driving.
FD
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“What a bunch of wet towels are there about in GA flying!”
FD – I would say that was a pretty judgmental statement too!
As some have said on the thread, it is clear people have different views on what is safe and what isn’t.
Maybe we could construct a poll on this one. We are missing a lot of information, but with all things being equal…
“It’s a blustery day, with a variable wind, would you fly (in a light GA aircraft - C152, PA28 or similar) with a TAF for the next few hours being “PROB30 TEMPO G36KT.” ?”
Possible answers could be:
· Of course I would, you “wet blanket”
· You must be a raving “idiot”, never in a million years.
I’ve deliberately made it black and white, as a compromise “possibly” answer, will probably attract the vast majority of votes due to the lack of information.
Just a fun poll to find out which camp we naturally fall into.
People up for it? Any suggestions before I post?
FD – I would say that was a pretty judgmental statement too!
As some have said on the thread, it is clear people have different views on what is safe and what isn’t.
Maybe we could construct a poll on this one. We are missing a lot of information, but with all things being equal…
“It’s a blustery day, with a variable wind, would you fly (in a light GA aircraft - C152, PA28 or similar) with a TAF for the next few hours being “PROB30 TEMPO G36KT.” ?”
Possible answers could be:
· Of course I would, you “wet blanket”
· You must be a raving “idiot”, never in a million years.
I’ve deliberately made it black and white, as a compromise “possibly” answer, will probably attract the vast majority of votes due to the lack of information.
Just a fun poll to find out which camp we naturally fall into.
People up for it? Any suggestions before I post?
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Any suggestions before I post?
It might help to create a more realistic forecast that PROB30 TEMPO G36
PROB30 means it probably won't happen, but the MetMan has covered his ass.
You need to know the rest of the weather before you can decide, but at least the mean wind
So if you said:
EG** 021732Z 021720 18018KT 9999 SCT020 BKN040 PROB30 TEMPO 1719 19025G36KT
and the available runways were 16/34 only...
It might help to create a more realistic forecast that PROB30 TEMPO G36
PROB30 means it probably won't happen, but the MetMan has covered his ass.
You need to know the rest of the weather before you can decide, but at least the mean wind
So if you said:
EG** 021732Z 021720 18018KT 9999 SCT020 BKN040 PROB30 TEMPO 1719 19025G36KT
and the available runways were 16/34 only...
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KCDW - funny, was just thinking of commenting on the conditions.
Well to stir the pot, my first inclination was just as yours - we just do not have sufficient information to make an informed comment.
Gertrude said something like the wind was all over the place. With respect to Gertrude, this was unlikely to literally be the case - he may have been using poetic license to get the debate going.
Hopefully we can assume the instructor would not have landed if the wind was way outside the cross wind limits of the aircraft, particularly given it would seem he could have held off and waited for it too abate.
We can assume there was some sheer on the approach, and this would be expected given the conditions and the description. While sheer is not predictable by any means, presumably the instructor is likely to be very familiar with the approach and would have a good idea in those conditions when and where sheer might be experienced at that airport.
We are therefore left with the instructor flying an approach where the wind was within crosswind limits, and possibly with a small or no cross wind component, a lengthy runway (after all an airliner had just departed), and probably some sheer on the approach that he expected.
If all of that is true, it seems to me for an experienced pilot the pilot was well within limits. Moreover, if the wind was straight down the runway it maybe, subject to the extent of the sheer, the approach was unexceptional.
Of course, as with everything it is relative. I recollect a recent approach in similar conditions. I know as a new PPL I would have been sweating more than a bit and thinking what the hell had I done. A lot of other pilots clearly felt the same - the airport was unusually quiet despite the weather being clear and the flying conditions very pleasant. Above 2,000 feet it was as smooth as silk! The approach, given some experience, was unexceptional, albeit there was some sheer and the wind was strong and gusty.
As to the training experience I remind well an approach, maybe not dissimilar, that was pushing my limits as a new PPL. Why did I take it on - because I had not experienced strong and gusty conditions during my training - I had little idea the extent of the impact they could have. Seems to me a good instructor will on occasions intentionally allow you to get into conditions which are beyond your envelope. In so doing you will know the environment is unforgiving, something you may not be as aware as you should if all your training is in benign conditions.
Well to stir the pot, my first inclination was just as yours - we just do not have sufficient information to make an informed comment.
Gertrude said something like the wind was all over the place. With respect to Gertrude, this was unlikely to literally be the case - he may have been using poetic license to get the debate going.
Hopefully we can assume the instructor would not have landed if the wind was way outside the cross wind limits of the aircraft, particularly given it would seem he could have held off and waited for it too abate.
We can assume there was some sheer on the approach, and this would be expected given the conditions and the description. While sheer is not predictable by any means, presumably the instructor is likely to be very familiar with the approach and would have a good idea in those conditions when and where sheer might be experienced at that airport.
We are therefore left with the instructor flying an approach where the wind was within crosswind limits, and possibly with a small or no cross wind component, a lengthy runway (after all an airliner had just departed), and probably some sheer on the approach that he expected.
If all of that is true, it seems to me for an experienced pilot the pilot was well within limits. Moreover, if the wind was straight down the runway it maybe, subject to the extent of the sheer, the approach was unexceptional.
Of course, as with everything it is relative. I recollect a recent approach in similar conditions. I know as a new PPL I would have been sweating more than a bit and thinking what the hell had I done. A lot of other pilots clearly felt the same - the airport was unusually quiet despite the weather being clear and the flying conditions very pleasant. Above 2,000 feet it was as smooth as silk! The approach, given some experience, was unexceptional, albeit there was some sheer and the wind was strong and gusty.
As to the training experience I remind well an approach, maybe not dissimilar, that was pushing my limits as a new PPL. Why did I take it on - because I had not experienced strong and gusty conditions during my training - I had little idea the extent of the impact they could have. Seems to me a good instructor will on occasions intentionally allow you to get into conditions which are beyond your envelope. In so doing you will know the environment is unforgiving, something you may not be as aware as you should if all your training is in benign conditions.
Last edited by Fuji Abound; 3rd May 2003 at 04:19.
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I dunno, Rustle, in my experience if a weather phenomenon it's a Bad Thing and it's advertised as PROB 30, it usually seems to happen!
(tongue only slightly in cheek!)
(tongue only slightly in cheek!)
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KCDW
Further to Rustle' suggestion, it might be an idea to include the heavy showers that Gertrude described, so what about....
EG** 021732Z 021720 18018KT 9999 SCT020 BKN040 RASH PROB30 TEMPO 1719 19025G36KT SCT018 CB +RASH
EG** 021732Z 021720 18018KT 9999 SCT020 BKN040 PROB30 TEMPO 1719 19025G36KT
EG** 021732Z 021720 18018KT 9999 SCT020 BKN040 RASH PROB30 TEMPO 1719 19025G36KT SCT018 CB +RASH
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PROB30 means it probably won't happen, but the MetMan has covered his ass.
Someone told me that a good rule of thumb for the low-hours PPL is; PROB30 - assume it's going to happen somewhere in the area and be prepared to cope with it (divert or don't go). PROB40 - assume it's going to happen over the airfield. It's possibly overcautious, but better to be down here wishing ...etc. etc.
Somebody once explained to me how pro30 is generated, it's quite surreal.
The Met Office has a series of computers running subtly different weather prediction programs based upon current data. Each program is maintained by a different team, who are all basically trying to out-do each other for accuracy.
If 30% of the programs say that something will happen, and 70% say it won't, that gets listed as a prob30.
G
The Met Office has a series of computers running subtly different weather prediction programs based upon current data. Each program is maintained by a different team, who are all basically trying to out-do each other for accuracy.
If 30% of the programs say that something will happen, and 70% say it won't, that gets listed as a prob30.
G
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Maybe I'm a wuss, but as a 100hr PPL with a shiny new IMC, I decided not to try practice holds & NDB approaches on Thursday on the strength of an ATIS reporting 20G30kt at 40 degrees off the runway; clearly one or two of the instructors felt I should have gone, but didn't actually say so. 30kt at 40deg is a 20kt crosswind, so if it had actually been that bad I would have been in trouble...
FWIW I'd certainly not be going anywhere with reported 25G36...
Tim
FWIW I'd certainly not be going anywhere with reported 25G36...
Tim
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Hi Tim,
I understand your comment about the 40* off r/w QDM equals a 20Kt X-wind, therefore don't fly.
If it was 25G36KT straight down the runway would you fly?
What about 0G11KT straight down the runway?
Just curious if it is the G-factor or the (relatively) higher numbers that make the difference in decision making...
I understand your comment about the 40* off r/w QDM equals a 20Kt X-wind, therefore don't fly.
If it was 25G36KT straight down the runway would you fly?
What about 0G11KT straight down the runway?
Just curious if it is the G-factor or the (relatively) higher numbers that make the difference in decision making...
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Like the proper TAF idea.
The key to this though, as everyone has spotted, is the horrid gusts at PROB30, so this poll will identify the chancers amongst us
I'll set it up....
and just how do you do that?
I seem to have lost the capability, or was this taken away recently?
The key to this though, as everyone has spotted, is the horrid gusts at PROB30, so this poll will identify the chancers amongst us
I'll set it up....
and just how do you do that?
I seem to have lost the capability, or was this taken away recently?
Last edited by KCDW; 3rd May 2003 at 20:12.
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Rustle
Interesting question.
I wouldn't take on 25G36 'straight down the track' in a Pup 100, but 0G11 (although pretty rare) would be fine, as the mean wind speed would only be 5.5kts.
Bumpy ride - probably, safe, yes. I'd probably stay a little high on final, maybe even do a glide approach to store a bit of potential energy in case of shear and a -11 in the worst case, but with decisive power and control inputs no probs.
However, the cause of the 0G11 might give me an issue, for example of it was related to CB activity overhead I might decide to hold off for a while and let it clear.
I tend to be a little cautious with PROB forecasts, having managed to penetrate an unforecast CB embedded in a stratus layer and it made me realise that low prob can still be pretty bad when it actually occurs
CBs in VMC should be no problem to avoid so a PROB is less concerning so long as you keep your eyes open, but its harder with winds in my experience, which can develop quite rapidly when they do arrive.
Interesting question.
I wouldn't take on 25G36 'straight down the track' in a Pup 100, but 0G11 (although pretty rare) would be fine, as the mean wind speed would only be 5.5kts.
Bumpy ride - probably, safe, yes. I'd probably stay a little high on final, maybe even do a glide approach to store a bit of potential energy in case of shear and a -11 in the worst case, but with decisive power and control inputs no probs.
However, the cause of the 0G11 might give me an issue, for example of it was related to CB activity overhead I might decide to hold off for a while and let it clear.
I tend to be a little cautious with PROB forecasts, having managed to penetrate an unforecast CB embedded in a stratus layer and it made me realise that low prob can still be pretty bad when it actually occurs
CBs in VMC should be no problem to avoid so a PROB is less concerning so long as you keep your eyes open, but its harder with winds in my experience, which can develop quite rapidly when they do arrive.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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I'm not sure that "0G11" is actually possible. The first part is the mean wind speed. So if it's gusting to 11, then in order for the mean to be zero there must be periods of negative wind. Hmm....
As for the PROB30 - in the forecast given, it's actually a PROB30 TEMPO. In fact, although I don't have a load of TAFs to hand to check this out on, I don't think there are very many PROB30's that aren't TEMPO's as well (someone please correct me if I'm wrong). In other words, if this farely unlikely (30% probability) event does happen, it won't be for very long (less than an hour). So as long as you've got enough fuel to hang around until it dies down, what's the problem?
FFF
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As for the PROB30 - in the forecast given, it's actually a PROB30 TEMPO. In fact, although I don't have a load of TAFs to hand to check this out on, I don't think there are very many PROB30's that aren't TEMPO's as well (someone please correct me if I'm wrong). In other words, if this farely unlikely (30% probability) event does happen, it won't be for very long (less than an hour). So as long as you've got enough fuel to hang around until it dies down, what's the problem?
FFF
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