Dodgy Manoeuvre.....
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Dodgy Manoeuvre.....
Hi Folks
Just to say that I was training today doing touch and goes..... After one of the landings, the aircraft went straight towards the edge of the runway, so I tried to steer it back towards the centreline gently, but the brakes and rudder pedals went a bit funny
, so I had to use rudder a bit more than I should have..... I veered back in the middle quite briskly at about 40-45 kts, Flaps 30, but at that moment, the aircraft lifted off....
I applied full power and gradually put flaps up...... everything went OK, but I think it was a bit of a dodgy manoeuvre....
In fact, everything went very quickly, and I do not know if the aircraft went off because I pulled back the controls.....?? or because of the "skid" to the right.... I did not really have time to think what I was doing, I had to act right away and make sure I was not going to go in the grass or then, to crash (I made sure though I still had some airspeed left, which I had [about 40 knots]....
Anyway, just wanted to share this experience.....
If anyone knows what might have happened, please let me know.....
Cheers
Just to say that I was training today doing touch and goes..... After one of the landings, the aircraft went straight towards the edge of the runway, so I tried to steer it back towards the centreline gently, but the brakes and rudder pedals went a bit funny
, so I had to use rudder a bit more than I should have..... I veered back in the middle quite briskly at about 40-45 kts, Flaps 30, but at that moment, the aircraft lifted off.... I applied full power and gradually put flaps up...... everything went OK, but I think it was a bit of a dodgy manoeuvre.... In fact, everything went very quickly, and I do not know if the aircraft went off because I pulled back the controls.....?? or because of the "skid" to the right.... I did not really have time to think what I was doing, I had to act right away and make sure I was not going to go in the grass or then, to crash (I made sure though I still had some airspeed left, which I had [about 40 knots]....
Anyway, just wanted to share this experience.....
If anyone knows what might have happened, please let me know.....Cheers
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Always difficult to speculate, but it could well be that a bit of tension crept into your feet and you inadvertently landed with a little bit of toe brake applied on one of the wheels. That might explain why you veered to one side. I like to make sure that the tips of my feet are on the bottom part of the pedals during the flare and landing, if that makes sense. Then when I want to brake I physically move my feet up the pedals to operate the toe brakes.
You also don't mention what the wind was doing, which could have been the factor that caused the aircraft to veer.
But once the aircraft had lifted itself off again, you did the right thing in applying full power and converting it into a take-off... it's never a good idea to push the aircraft back down onto the ground if it's trying to get airborne!
(Disclaimer: I'm only a lowly PPL myself, not an instructor. Probably best to chat about it with your instructor.)
You also don't mention what the wind was doing, which could have been the factor that caused the aircraft to veer.
But once the aircraft had lifted itself off again, you did the right thing in applying full power and converting it into a take-off... it's never a good idea to push the aircraft back down onto the ground if it's trying to get airborne!
(Disclaimer: I'm only a lowly PPL myself, not an instructor. Probably best to chat about it with your instructor.)
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as dmjw01 said, there could be a few reasons as to why the a/c veered to one side and he/she
has mentioned the obvious ones, but what I will say is a big well done for sorting it out.
Whether it lifted or you lifted it, getting it in the air with full juice and progressively raising the flaps to a safe climb out was a decent piece of positive airmanship.
Dodgy looking or not....
Ive headed towards the runway marker boards a few times I can tell ya and sometimes ive hit the brake/rudder so hard to steer away i was sure it was gonna tip over. (PA28 - the early days...)
its all learn learn learn!
speedy
has mentioned the obvious ones, but what I will say is a big well done for sorting it out. Whether it lifted or you lifted it, getting it in the air with full juice and progressively raising the flaps to a safe climb out was a decent piece of positive airmanship.
Dodgy looking or not....
Ive headed towards the runway marker boards a few times I can tell ya and sometimes ive hit the brake/rudder so hard to steer away i was sure it was gonna tip over. (PA28 - the early days...)
its all learn learn learn!
speedy
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Like the other posters have said - good for you for sorting it out and getting her back in the air again .
I hate touch and go's since I came in to do a couple some months ago (having not done any for a bit) and, in the PA28, on touchdown veered sharply off to the left, heading straight for the grass edge of the runway. I brought her back to the centre of the runway, had a mental blank (for what seemed like an eternity) about how much flap to use on take-off and then finally realised I hadn't applied full power.
It was VERY late by the time I rotated and I squeaked over the trees at the end.
I have been extremely wary of doing touch and gos since.
The two things I learnt?
1) Know what you're going to do before you do it (i.e. I should have rehearsed in my mind well ahead of touchdown exactly what I was going to do - hopefully I would have avoided the mental blank)
2) Don't feel the need to press on with a maneuver if its safer to stop.
Hey ho.....the learning goes on!
.I hate touch and go's since I came in to do a couple some months ago (having not done any for a bit) and, in the PA28, on touchdown veered sharply off to the left, heading straight for the grass edge of the runway. I brought her back to the centre of the runway, had a mental blank (for what seemed like an eternity) about how much flap to use on take-off and then finally realised I hadn't applied full power.
It was VERY late by the time I rotated
and I squeaked over the trees at the end.I have been extremely wary of doing touch and gos since.
The two things I learnt?
1) Know what you're going to do before you do it (i.e. I should have rehearsed in my mind well ahead of touchdown exactly what I was going to do - hopefully I would have avoided the mental blank)
2) Don't feel the need to press on with a maneuver if its safer to stop.
Hey ho.....the learning goes on!
Why do it if it's not fun?
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I agree with the other posters - it's difficult to speculate about what the problem was without knowing more. But adding power and going around was definitely the right thing to do, so congrats on handling it well
Out of interest, what type of aircraft was this? What was the wind doing? What airfield were you at - grass or hard runway? And am I right in assuming that you're a solo student? Have you discussed this with your instructor?
FFF
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Out of interest, what type of aircraft was this? What was the wind doing? What airfield were you at - grass or hard runway? And am I right in assuming that you're a solo student? Have you discussed this with your instructor?
FFF
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FN,
Well done on getting away unscathed.
I used to have a dislike of touch-n-goes because of similar "steering" experiences, and be fighting the aeroplane on the ground.
However, one of my instructors suggested that I shouldn't think of it as a landing roll and take off roll, more a very brief touch with the mainwheels (but not a bounce
).
He reminded me that you touch down with a lot of back pressure, so the nose wheel should hardly be on the ground, and applying full power with 2 or 3 stages of flap, you are pretty much at Vr anyway, so aim to lift off ASAP, not struggle to keep the aircraft on the ground. Keeping the back pressure on seemed to be the trick.
Worked for me - though I'm not claiming that my t&gs are a joy to behold either
For what it's worth, I was taught to apply full power (check carb heat cold) THEN lose drag flap in the warrior.
Like ChiSau, I scared myself once by dumping ALL the flap by mistake instead of just the drag flap! Just reduced the climb to best rate rather than best angle
.
Cheers
SD
Well done on getting away unscathed.
I used to have a dislike of touch-n-goes because of similar "steering" experiences, and be fighting the aeroplane on the ground.
However, one of my instructors suggested that I shouldn't think of it as a landing roll and take off roll, more a very brief touch with the mainwheels (but not a bounce
). He reminded me that you touch down with a lot of back pressure, so the nose wheel should hardly be on the ground, and applying full power with 2 or 3 stages of flap, you are pretty much at Vr anyway, so aim to lift off ASAP, not struggle to keep the aircraft on the ground. Keeping the back pressure on seemed to be the trick.
Worked for me - though I'm not claiming that my t&gs are a joy to behold either
For what it's worth, I was taught to apply full power (check carb heat cold) THEN lose drag flap in the warrior.
Like ChiSau, I scared myself once by dumping ALL the flap by mistake instead of just the drag flap! Just reduced the climb to best rate rather than best angle
.Cheers
SD
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As everyone else has said, it's futile for us to speculate on what happened on here.
However, two points occur to me...
1. Next time it happens you will recover sooner - simply because you have thought about it.
2. I doubt there are any pilots who (if they're honest) haven't scared the proverbial out of themselves at least once with a dodgy landing. Mine was a perfectly executed, but way overspeed affair in the Archer, on grass. Messy, scary, and followed by a very unorthodox circuit, but most importantly - never repeated!
However, two points occur to me...
1. Next time it happens you will recover sooner - simply because you have thought about it.
2. I doubt there are any pilots who (if they're honest) haven't scared the proverbial out of themselves at least once with a dodgy landing. Mine was a perfectly executed, but way overspeed affair in the Archer, on grass. Messy, scary, and followed by a very unorthodox circuit, but most importantly - never repeated!
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Fancy N
I don't know what happened to you, but I once had a momentary brake lock in a clubd a/c that caused similar symptoms.
The a/c had a bit of a 'trackie' according to the engineers.
The main thing is that you are a slightly older and wiser pilot
Well done.
I don't know what happened to you, but I once had a momentary brake lock in a clubd a/c that caused similar symptoms.
The a/c had a bit of a 'trackie' according to the engineers.
The main thing is that you are a slightly older and wiser pilot
Well done.
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Fancy Navigator
Best textbook I have found for landing is by John Denker. The rest of it is recommended reading.
I would guess that you landed on a wheel which was not travelling straight down the runway. On impact with the ground, the tire had a sideways component of movement, and per Newton (opposite reaction and all that) the ground violently pushed your plane to the side, and to the edge of the runway. Very frightening when it happens, and if your landing gear survives you can get in a right mess trying to fix it. Nothing to do with wind. Best thing to do is go around, which you did.
It's a common mistake, and can happen even with no cross wind if your nose is not pointing straight down the runway when you hit. You need to get your sight picture sorted out, and the only way to do that is to practice. Quite often people think they are lined up, but because they are in a spam-can where you sit to one side, you are not truly lined up with the centreline. A cross wind complicates the matter a little bit, but the same rule applies - keep the nose of the aircraft pointing down the centreline, again with rudder.
Learning to fly in a tail dragger will force you to get this right Failing that take an experienced pilot up who can tell you what the correct sight picture looks like when you are on final.
Good luck, and don't worry, we have all done it.
Best textbook I have found for landing is by John Denker. The rest of it is recommended reading.
I would guess that you landed on a wheel which was not travelling straight down the runway. On impact with the ground, the tire had a sideways component of movement, and per Newton (opposite reaction and all that) the ground violently pushed your plane to the side, and to the edge of the runway. Very frightening when it happens, and if your landing gear survives you can get in a right mess trying to fix it. Nothing to do with wind. Best thing to do is go around, which you did.
It's a common mistake, and can happen even with no cross wind if your nose is not pointing straight down the runway when you hit. You need to get your sight picture sorted out, and the only way to do that is to practice. Quite often people think they are lined up, but because they are in a spam-can where you sit to one side, you are not truly lined up with the centreline. A cross wind complicates the matter a little bit, but the same rule applies - keep the nose of the aircraft pointing down the centreline, again with rudder.
Learning to fly in a tail dragger will force you to get this right
Failing that take an experienced pilot up who can tell you what the correct sight picture looks like when you are on final.Good luck, and don't worry, we have all done it.
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Replying if only to make myself feel better !
Haven't landed for a while since getting my PPL went up with another PPL in a Piper (I have only ever landed Cessnas). On arrival at airfield wasn't really expecting to do the landing although all seemed to be going well so no handover of control took place. Was lined up OK a little quick but a/c started drifting to the right just before and continued after landing. Power on and go around was the order of the day and a dented pride !!
Lessons learned:
Always hand-over control if that's what was agreed otherwise you won't be in the right frame of mind always expecting the other to take over.
If there's a crosswind make final a little longer to establish correction required and get settled on the centre line.
If it looks crap.... it is crap go around !!!
For a good hour I was completely depressed but these things happen I will now carry on searching the forum to make sure I'm not alone (Still looking for a bit of re-assurance !)
Lessons learned:
Always hand-over control if that's what was agreed otherwise you won't be in the right frame of mind always expecting the other to take over.
If there's a crosswind make final a little longer to establish correction required and get settled on the centre line.
If it looks crap.... it is crap go around !!!
For a good hour I was completely depressed but these things happen I will now carry on searching the forum to make sure I'm not alone (Still looking for a bit of re-assurance !)
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Highwinger,
You hadn't landed "for a while" since getting your PPL - how long is "a while"?
I usually fly every week or every two weeks, sometimes longer if I'm busy with other things, or the weather's crap, or the aircraft is busy or unserviceable. I reckon about 50% of my landings are reasonable, 40% are bad, and 10% are absolutely appaling. Every now and then I manage a really really good one - can't remember the last time I did one of them, must have been before Christmas.
On the other hand, when I was hour-building I flew at least once, often more, nearly every day for two months. By the end of that, I'd say over 90% of my landings were reasonable, and over half of them were very good.
Apparently, the more experience you have, the less often you have to fly to keep the skill-level up. But if that's true then I haven't got enough experience for it to apply to me yet! So, as a new PPL, if you've had a bit of a break, it would be perfectly normal to do a less-than-perfect landing - don't worry about it. Especially in a new type.
But, as long as they're safe, it doesn't really matter if they bounce around a bit. And from the "lessons learned" that you listed, it sounds like you're pretty safe to me Just try to get some regular flying done, and it'll all start coming together!
FFF
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You hadn't landed "for a while" since getting your PPL - how long is "a while"?
I usually fly every week or every two weeks, sometimes longer if I'm busy with other things, or the weather's crap, or the aircraft is busy or unserviceable. I reckon about 50% of my landings are reasonable, 40% are bad, and 10% are absolutely appaling. Every now and then I manage a really really good one - can't remember the last time I did one of them, must have been before Christmas.
On the other hand, when I was hour-building I flew at least once, often more, nearly every day for two months. By the end of that, I'd say over 90% of my landings were reasonable, and over half of them were very good.
Apparently, the more experience you have, the less often you have to fly to keep the skill-level up. But if that's true then I haven't got enough experience for it to apply to me yet! So, as a new PPL, if you've had a bit of a break, it would be perfectly normal to do a less-than-perfect landing - don't worry about it. Especially in a new type.
But, as long as they're safe, it doesn't really matter if they bounce around a bit. And from the "lessons learned" that you listed, it sounds like you're pretty safe to me
Just try to get some regular flying done, and it'll all start coming together!FFF
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Running off the side of the runway may not be a big deal, particularly where the edge of a runway is just a white line in the grass and you're going quite slowly by the time you cross it. If you're well below take-off speed then a go-around sounds like it might sometimes be a worse option, as might bending the undercarriage in a desparate attempt to regain the centre line.
Running off the side is, however, a reportable incident, I discover. (Several years after having once done it and not told anyone.)
Hmm. I guess it's one of those things where one has to make a judgement when it happens (accept running off; steer back onto the runway; full power and go-around). At a point when one's confidence in one's judgement is already iffy due to having just screwed up the landing.
Running off the side is, however, a reportable incident, I discover. (Several years after having once done it and not told anyone.)
Hmm. I guess it's one of those things where one has to make a judgement when it happens (accept running off; steer back onto the runway; full power and go-around). At a point when one's confidence in one's judgement is already iffy due to having just screwed up the landing.
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Thanks for the reply FlyingForFun
Unfortunately the edge of the runway had lights which I didn't fancy damaging and was concerned that any effort to get right back over to the centreline at that speed would have us pirouetting arond on the tip of the wing !!! Especially as there was a crosswind which would have helped us tip over.
Due to money probs (i.e too much month left at the end of my money) I haven't landed since November so there has been a massive break in practice... The good news is we're ******ing off to Australia forever in a couple of weeks and I expect to be able to fly every weekend if not more because I won't have a bloody whopping mortgage to pay off.
Thanks for the comments we're still alive and no damage was done to a/c or airfield so I like to think I did the right thing?
Happy landings all !!!
Unfortunately the edge of the runway had lights which I didn't fancy damaging and was concerned that any effort to get right back over to the centreline at that speed would have us pirouetting arond on the tip of the wing !!! Especially as there was a crosswind which would have helped us tip over.
Due to money probs (i.e too much month left at the end of my money) I haven't landed since November so there has been a massive break in practice... The good news is we're ******ing off to Australia forever in a couple of weeks and I expect to be able to fly every weekend if not more because I won't have a bloody whopping mortgage to pay off.
Thanks for the comments we're still alive and no damage was done to a/c or airfield so I like to think I did the right thing?
Happy landings all !!!
Hahahahaha....
Your mention of the lights just reminded me of when an early-ish circuit student I was with in a C152 lost directional control & ran us off the runway. He'd confused his left & right and applied the wrong pedal. Somehow he managed to get the us running in line with the RWY lights with the nosewheel & prop. centred on the next light.
We were too slow to get airborne and too fast & close to stop or swerve. All I could do was apply full backstick with full power to increase the elevator effectiveness in the hope that raising the nose would lift the wheel & prop above the light.
Once over the light then lowered the nose just in the case the tail was also aligned with the light and steered us back onto the runway.
Hadn't thought about that in years! I'm bloody glad we used to play around in those a/c seeing who could keep the nose wheel in the air the longest, get it of the ground the soonest, stop the shortest etc etc!
Your mention of the lights just reminded me of when an early-ish circuit student I was with in a C152 lost directional control & ran us off the runway. He'd confused his left & right and applied the wrong pedal. Somehow he managed to get the us running in line with the RWY lights with the nosewheel & prop. centred on the next light.
We were too slow to get airborne and too fast & close to stop or swerve. All I could do was apply full backstick with full power to increase the elevator effectiveness in the hope that raising the nose would lift the wheel & prop above the light.
Once over the light then lowered the nose just in the case the tail was also aligned with the light and steered us back onto the runway. Hadn't thought about that in years! I'm bloody glad we used to play around in those a/c seeing who could keep the nose wheel in the air the longest, get it of the ground the soonest, stop the shortest etc etc!
