FISOs - what are they for?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 3,325
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
FISOs - what are they for?
So.....
We flew down to a farm strip in most rural Shropshire today, me, the Red Chippy, and and a guest pilot in the back seat. Throttled right back, flap set and power down low, we wove between the farms and hamlets so as not to upset the nimbys, skimmed the right edge of the wood, straightend at 30 feet on short final, and set down like a feather on the close-mown grass.
We shut down the idling Gipsy in this idylic spot, and enjoyed the glorious scenery and the silence, broken only by delightful birdsong.
And no RT.
The return: right turn as soon as we are airborn out over the edge of the strip, and a weaving climb out for the same reason as our carefull arrival. Lovely sight-seeing trip over Shropshire free of radio chatter. Minimal, sensible, short exchanges with Manch on 119.4 in the Low Level Route (not even neccessary, but a joy to participate in because they are so well conducted and so concise).
Change to our home field fequency at Thelwall.
Chatter, chatter, chatter, chatter non stop chatter on the RT. AB do this, BA do that, CB report here, BC this, DE that.
*Why*, for heaven's sake??
Non stop RT all the way into the overhead, round the circuit, and onto the runway - and beyond. As we taxied in for fuel my back seat guest, quite unpromted by any comment from me (I had made none), intoned "Sierra Lima breath in. Sierra Lima breath out, Sierra Lima breath in. Sierra Lima breath out".
What in heck is going on??? Why does this small grass field need non-stop micro-controlling by FISOS?
The fact is - IT DOESN'T.
Let's get a sense of proportion back into GA. Let's let pilots do what they do well - make descisions for themselves. Let's just just let them *get-on-with-it*.
SSD
We flew down to a farm strip in most rural Shropshire today, me, the Red Chippy, and and a guest pilot in the back seat. Throttled right back, flap set and power down low, we wove between the farms and hamlets so as not to upset the nimbys, skimmed the right edge of the wood, straightend at 30 feet on short final, and set down like a feather on the close-mown grass.
We shut down the idling Gipsy in this idylic spot, and enjoyed the glorious scenery and the silence, broken only by delightful birdsong.
And no RT.
The return: right turn as soon as we are airborn out over the edge of the strip, and a weaving climb out for the same reason as our carefull arrival. Lovely sight-seeing trip over Shropshire free of radio chatter. Minimal, sensible, short exchanges with Manch on 119.4 in the Low Level Route (not even neccessary, but a joy to participate in because they are so well conducted and so concise).
Change to our home field fequency at Thelwall.
Chatter, chatter, chatter, chatter non stop chatter on the RT. AB do this, BA do that, CB report here, BC this, DE that.
*Why*, for heaven's sake??
Non stop RT all the way into the overhead, round the circuit, and onto the runway - and beyond. As we taxied in for fuel my back seat guest, quite unpromted by any comment from me (I had made none), intoned "Sierra Lima breath in. Sierra Lima breath out, Sierra Lima breath in. Sierra Lima breath out".
What in heck is going on??? Why does this small grass field need non-stop micro-controlling by FISOS?
The fact is - IT DOESN'T.
Let's get a sense of proportion back into GA. Let's let pilots do what they do well - make descisions for themselves. Let's just just let them *get-on-with-it*.
SSD
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 325
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The role of the FISO is to provide information to facilitate the safe movement of aircraft within an ATZ, and of vehicles and aircraft on the manoeuvering area.
A FISO is not permitted to control aircraft in the air, not even micro-control! and may not refuse entry to the ATZ.
They may control aircraft and vehicles on the prescribed parts of the manoeuvering area.
Pilots are required to make decisions for themselves at aerodromes with AFIS.
A FISO is not permitted to control aircraft in the air, not even micro-control! and may not refuse entry to the ATZ.
They may control aircraft and vehicles on the prescribed parts of the manoeuvering area.
Pilots are required to make decisions for themselves at aerodromes with AFIS.
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Harwich
Age: 65
Posts: 777
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
'SBlood, is this kind of thing STILL going on? Anyone remember Mr Pascoe at Ipswich? You would have thought it was LHR. I just used to turn the volume down. To my knowledge, no-one crashed.
I'm not sure what's worse - verbal diarrhoea from FISOs or the absence of anything at all at known busy aerodromes. There's an aerodrome near here which allegedly has an A/G service - yet many times I've called them on the way in only to get a deafening silence. When they're meat-bombing, it's handy to know what's going on to sequence the arrival - and not just to be told on final that 'We WILL be dropping in 1 minute'.......
Personally, I reckon that an aerodrome which has simultaneous gliding, parachuting and light aeroplane flying shouldn't be permitted to do so unless it has either an A/G radio operator or preferably a FISO on duty during promulgated hours of such activity. I'm not that keen on taking-off with parachutists landing all around me about whom I knew nothing as happened once to me at this aerodrome!
Personally, I reckon that an aerodrome which has simultaneous gliding, parachuting and light aeroplane flying shouldn't be permitted to do so unless it has either an A/G radio operator or preferably a FISO on duty during promulgated hours of such activity. I'm not that keen on taking-off with parachutists landing all around me about whom I knew nothing as happened once to me at this aerodrome!
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Cheese-eating Surrender Monkey land
Posts: 80
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think I see a man with a bee in his bonnet (I hope that's right. English slang always worries me)
I am not a big fanatic for using the radio when enjoying myself in the Yak, but even I can see that there are occasions when a trained individual on the ground can help everybody concerned.
In fact, your FISO system is much better than ours. In France, our A/G people are basically unlicensed and the quality is far more variable than your FISOs.
When I fly over to England, my simple response when a FISO oversteps their authority is to say:
"F-xxxx. Please confirm that your callsign is ABC Information and that you are offering a Flight Information Service only." That has never failed.
TvR
I am not a big fanatic for using the radio when enjoying myself in the Yak, but even I can see that there are occasions when a trained individual on the ground can help everybody concerned.
In fact, your FISO system is much better than ours. In France, our A/G people are basically unlicensed and the quality is far more variable than your FISOs.
When I fly over to England, my simple response when a FISO oversteps their authority is to say:
"F-xxxx. Please confirm that your callsign is ABC Information and that you are offering a Flight Information Service only." That has never failed.
TvR
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Savannah GA & Portsmouth UK
Posts: 1,784
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Among other things the Rules of the Air Regulations 1991 state:-
So, if it is within the published hours of operation and there is radio, you have to speak to them, whether they are a/g or AFIS.
So why pick on FISO's? In any walk of life there are people, who try to overstep their authority (traffic wardens, event stewards, local councillors.....) and the a/g operator is every bit as capable of doing it as the AFISO. Know the rules and object if they are being broken.
At least an AFISO has received formal training and has a license that can be taken away if he misbehaves. If you feel he is operating outside his authority, speak to the CAA and they may have a word in his ear.
Mike
(2) An aircraft shall not fly, take off or land within the aerodrome traffic zone of an aerodrome to which this paragraph applies unless the commander of the aircraft has obtained the permission of the air traffic control unit at the aerodrome or, where there is no air traffic control unit, has obtained from the aerodrome flight information unit at that aerodrome information to enable the flight within the zone to be conducted with safety or, where there is no air traffic control unit nor aerodrome flight information unit, has obtained information from the air/ground radio station at that aerodrome to enable the flight to be conducted with safety.
So why pick on FISO's? In any walk of life there are people, who try to overstep their authority (traffic wardens, event stewards, local councillors.....) and the a/g operator is every bit as capable of doing it as the AFISO. Know the rules and object if they are being broken.
At least an AFISO has received formal training and has a license that can be taken away if he misbehaves. If you feel he is operating outside his authority, speak to the CAA and they may have a word in his ear.
Mike
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Biggleswade
Posts: 349
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Good call TvR.
I too have a problem with too much chat on the RT. But unfortunately, we live in a duty-of-care society and if ATC do not pass information that may lead to conflict, they leave themselves open to litigation, hence, chat on the radio will increase, not decrease.
We need a fundamental change to our H&S rules if we want to get back to the old system.
The way were're going, we'll be born with a bright yellow reflective jacket as part of our DNA, hard hat compulsary!
Sad..., I lknow, but true all the same.
A
I too have a problem with too much chat on the RT. But unfortunately, we live in a duty-of-care society and if ATC do not pass information that may lead to conflict, they leave themselves open to litigation, hence, chat on the radio will increase, not decrease.
We need a fundamental change to our H&S rules if we want to get back to the old system.
The way were're going, we'll be born with a bright yellow reflective jacket as part of our DNA, hard hat compulsary!
Sad..., I lknow, but true all the same.
A
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Ashwell, U.K.
Posts: 323
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just returned from 2 weeks in New Zealand and took the opportunity to hire an instructor and a Tecnam Golf (now that's my idea of a microlight, full tanks, two large bodies,bubble canopy, joystick and a 110kt cruise but not allowed in the UK courtesy of BCAR-S). I flew from Wanaka where there is no Tower but everybody gives Downwind and Final calls on the aerodrome frequency. While I was circuit bashing I was in with a Cresco lobbing out tandem skydivers,a Robinson R44, 2 Cessna sight-seeing Cessnas that were very busy and best of all a newly -arrived L-39 jet which was giving pleasure flights at £700 for 20 minutes. Admittedly the viz was good but it was all very safe and is apparently the norm in NZ. Any lessons to be learnt for the UK?
Join Date: May 2001
Location: 75N 16E
Age: 54
Posts: 4,729
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't know why we even need A/G or FISO's. In my opinion it is probably safer to talk directly to other pilots in the vicinity of an aerodrome on a Unicom frequency than a radio operator who has no ATC authority. As far as parachuting goes, in the USA the parachuting is notified by Notam, then when nearing the vicinity of the area, if not already talking to some form of ATC, then contact is made with the 'drop' pilot on a Unicom frequency. He's in a far better position to advise whats going on than say a FISO sitting on the ground. Many of these untowered airports also broadcast AWOS [automated weather] information which includes all pertinent information needed, including such things as density altitude, wind direction, speed etc..
It all works perfectly well, so well in fact that even large airports become un-towered fields after 'closing time' and a Unicom freq becomes active. Its an interesting feeling flying into and taxying around a normally busy 5 runway airport in the middle of the night with no one around....
Cheers
EA
It all works perfectly well, so well in fact that even large airports become un-towered fields after 'closing time' and a Unicom freq becomes active. Its an interesting feeling flying into and taxying around a normally busy 5 runway airport in the middle of the night with no one around....
Cheers
EA
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: North Uist, Outer Hebrides
Posts: 58
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
'Unicom' works well in the good 'ol US of A because everybody uses it, everybody has been brought up with it and the country is HUGE. Radio discipline is good, and everyone gets on with it.
In the UK, its different. No radio discipline at all, too many gob$hites wanting to tell everyone where they are, what height they are, what power setting they are using, all within a country the size of one American State. Which is probably why 'Unicom' is never realistically going to happen in the UK. Just have a listen to 118.000 on any busy weekend for an example of constant, and pointless chit-chat.
So, as I suggested to Shaggy Sheep Driver last week, best get on with it, turn the radio off, and fly VFR outside CAS where you are entitled to be without all the distractions of ATC. All the while, of course, keeping a GOOD LOOKOUT and not concentrating on the GPS. No radio=No hassle. No hassle=FUN.
I'm off down the hangar now, its a glorious day, despite what them WX chaps said it was going to be like.
Toodle pip
In the UK, its different. No radio discipline at all, too many gob$hites wanting to tell everyone where they are, what height they are, what power setting they are using, all within a country the size of one American State. Which is probably why 'Unicom' is never realistically going to happen in the UK. Just have a listen to 118.000 on any busy weekend for an example of constant, and pointless chit-chat.
So, as I suggested to Shaggy Sheep Driver last week, best get on with it, turn the radio off, and fly VFR outside CAS where you are entitled to be without all the distractions of ATC. All the while, of course, keeping a GOOD LOOKOUT and not concentrating on the GPS. No radio=No hassle. No hassle=FUN.
I'm off down the hangar now, its a glorious day, despite what them WX chaps said it was going to be like.
Toodle pip
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: England
Posts: 26
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SSD, why not leave Barton and fly from an uninhabited remote area over in Wales or something like that, you would probably feel much more at home then 
and you could mumble on to yourself about your hatred of all Airtrafficers on your own. I fly at barton and i think the service is great it works well. Why not just get on with your flying more importantly and leave the FISOs to get on with their jobs which in MHO they do very well. You are the unproffessional if you ask me.
and you could mumble on to yourself about your hatred of all Airtrafficers on your own. I fly at barton and i think the service is great it works well. Why not just get on with your flying more importantly and leave the FISOs to get on with their jobs which in MHO they do very well. You are the unproffessional if you ask me.
Last edited by windsock9; 9th Aug 2004 at 12:38.
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 110
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Let face up to the real truth here. Just like some newly qualified PPLs are only allowed to fly aircraft where the radio is a primary flight control with ATC's hand on it, certain chipmunk pilots seem to think a flight isn't complete until they have had an assertive chit-chat about how bad FISO's are. SSD, based on your posts over the last few weeks, I'm sure you will be much happier if you were to move yourself and your aircraft to a totally non-radio airstrip where you can fly around without ever having to talking to anybody.
Regards
D
PS I had a great flight this morning, spoke to a few stations along the way. At one point I thought about turning the radio off but I'm still not convinced the wings won't fall off
Regards
D
PS I had a great flight this morning, spoke to a few stations along the way. At one point I thought about turning the radio off but I'm still not convinced the wings won't fall off
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: England
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Radio and nonradio
Shaggy Sheep Rider I must ask this do you get tired carrying your aircraft on your shoulder all of the times?
Some person thought that I complain, but I complain about only when somethings are broken.
It seem from here that you just complain for nothing.
Learn live and let live - not all people are the same and some like FIS and some don't but people who do do not complain about it every post they make they live and let other one live also.
You do not have the monopoly for deciding what is right and required and nor do I so I willnot be forcing you to talk on radios and you should not be forcing me to be dumb like you.
Some person thought that I complain, but I complain about only when somethings are broken.
It seem from here that you just complain for nothing.
Learn live and let live - not all people are the same and some like FIS and some don't but people who do do not complain about it every post they make they live and let other one live also.
You do not have the monopoly for deciding what is right and required and nor do I so I willnot be forcing you to talk on radios and you should not be forcing me to be dumb like you.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 1,089
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Redhill
An earlier post on this topic castigated Redhill. I am a not infrequent visitor to this airfield (from way up north) and have ALWAYS found them to be extremely helpful and accomodating. Why do so many pilots have differing stories to tell I wonder?
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Savannah GA & Portsmouth UK
Posts: 1,784
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BEagle
Thought that's what ATZ stood for.
So you are of course correct.
Unicom works fine in the US when traffic is light, however there have been plenty of incidents where pilots, without the benefit of a ground station, have chosen to use two different runways at the same time, sometimes with fatal results.
At Popham, where it's a/g it is very useful to have the a/g operator look over your shoulder when on 26 as you can't see the offset approach clearly from alongside the threshold.
Ditto when at the threshold of 03 Admittedly the a/g operator doesn't have that much better a view over the trees but he is better able than me to keep abreast of what traffic is in the circuit while I am doing my checks.
Mike
within the aerodrome traffic zone
So you are of course correct.
Unicom works fine in the US when traffic is light, however there have been plenty of incidents where pilots, without the benefit of a ground station, have chosen to use two different runways at the same time, sometimes with fatal results.
At Popham, where it's a/g it is very useful to have the a/g operator look over your shoulder when on 26 as you can't see the offset approach clearly from alongside the threshold.
Ditto when at the threshold of 03 Admittedly the a/g operator doesn't have that much better a view over the trees but he is better able than me to keep abreast of what traffic is in the circuit while I am doing my checks.
Mike
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Manchester, UK
Posts: 492
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think I'll rise to Shaggy's defence here (whilst not totally damning the lads n lasses in Barton's hallowed tower)..
Barton used to be good for R/T . Concise stuff, very relevant to its "at your discretion" status. Those who have only known it as it is now wouldn't know it from days of yore. Both SSD and myself have flown from the place long enough to notice the difference.
It's snot that Barton's R/T is over-officous or overstepping its authority ....the advisories are given out in a friendly enough manner, so I would not kick 'em for that..
It's just that there are too many "instructions" given out which any pilot versed in operating from Barton (or indeed any other small airfield) knows already.
So, wheras "before", a visitor to Barton would get some advisories on a RH turnoff the active and where to park, now everyone gets them - when the majority already know the score.
I think over time, this can lead to a certain amount of "dumbing down" and "chatter fatigue" from the pilots side (e.g. students getting over dependent on a radio service which tells them everything, or pilots unconciously shutting out the clutter and then risking missing something important).
IMHO it would be better if the AFISOs got a little more concise and gave some of the less important information only when requested - and applied some knowledge of who and what is flying/landing/taxying.
That way, they would hear more and see more - and could give information when it was really needed rather than all the time. At the present, it's difficult to get a 5 second position call in for all the relatively superfluous stuff that one hears.
Do we want to wait 1 minute when the donk stops before anyone knows that we're in trouble? At 800 feet, that ain't much time...
The alternative would be to have separate "tower" and "ground" frequencies
Barton used to be good for R/T . Concise stuff, very relevant to its "at your discretion" status. Those who have only known it as it is now wouldn't know it from days of yore. Both SSD and myself have flown from the place long enough to notice the difference.
It's snot that Barton's R/T is over-officous or overstepping its authority ....the advisories are given out in a friendly enough manner, so I would not kick 'em for that..
It's just that there are too many "instructions" given out which any pilot versed in operating from Barton (or indeed any other small airfield) knows already.
So, wheras "before", a visitor to Barton would get some advisories on a RH turnoff the active and where to park, now everyone gets them - when the majority already know the score.
I think over time, this can lead to a certain amount of "dumbing down" and "chatter fatigue" from the pilots side (e.g. students getting over dependent on a radio service which tells them everything, or pilots unconciously shutting out the clutter and then risking missing something important).
IMHO it would be better if the AFISOs got a little more concise and gave some of the less important information only when requested - and applied some knowledge of who and what is flying/landing/taxying.
That way, they would hear more and see more - and could give information when it was really needed rather than all the time. At the present, it's difficult to get a 5 second position call in for all the relatively superfluous stuff that one hears.
Do we want to wait 1 minute when the donk stops before anyone knows that we're in trouble? At 800 feet, that ain't much time...
The alternative would be to have separate "tower" and "ground" frequencies