FISOs - what are they for?
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POET
Not being funny here but if your FISO's are not differentiating between 'based' and 'visitors' in terms of ground instructions then maybe it's time that the commitee (as their employers) got them all in a room and read them the riot act.
There is no reason to do it, there is no need, there is no SRG edict that says you must. If there are laid down instructions that based operators and club members know about by signing some form of 'flying order book' then that is sufficient. The FISO's don't have to re-iterate it every time.
It might be worth pointing this out - it may reduce your R/T useage.
CM
Not being funny here but if your FISO's are not differentiating between 'based' and 'visitors' in terms of ground instructions then maybe it's time that the commitee (as their employers) got them all in a room and read them the riot act.
There is no reason to do it, there is no need, there is no SRG edict that says you must. If there are laid down instructions that based operators and club members know about by signing some form of 'flying order book' then that is sufficient. The FISO's don't have to re-iterate it every time.
It might be worth pointing this out - it may reduce your R/T useage.
CM
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Thanks for refining my point, Poet - well put. And CM, excellent advice.
Bpilatus - I have to admit to not understanding very much of your post. If English is not your first language, then I aplogise for that criticism.
But - It's Shaggy Sheep DRIVER. I've never carried an aeroplane in my life, let alone on my shoulder.
SSD
Bpilatus - I have to admit to not understanding very much of your post. If English is not your first language, then I aplogise for that criticism.
But - It's Shaggy Sheep DRIVER. I've never carried an aeroplane in my life, let alone on my shoulder.
SSD
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SSD, if poetpilot's post is refining the point you were trying to make, in this and other threads, about the problems you are having with FISOs, then my first impression appears to be wrong. 
The tone of your orignal post gave me, and others, the impression that you are the kind of person who b1tches whenever you don't get your own way. Hey, you ride a viffer so you can't be all bad! 
D
The tone of your orignal post gave me, and others, the impression that you are the kind of person who b1tches whenever you don't get your own way. Hey, you ride a viffer so you can't be all bad! D
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Take it from me, SSD's a laid back, nice guy!
Purely from a personal view (I wouldnt want to speak for SSD on this) I've seen and been involved in enough politics at Barton in the past, NOT to want get deeply involved in them again, so I'm not criticising them with any other reason than to explore how it could be improved.
As a general observation/impression, it's been settled and positive in many ways in recent years at Barton, and I think that's a Very Good Thing. In particular, I think the flying school (instructors) are a really excellent crew right now, and I've seen other positive postings here saying much the same.
In terms of "AFISOs before the Committee", then this would run counter to the policy at Barton as I understand it, which is that there is a staff management structure, therefore (hypothetically) the AFISOs would discuss this with their line management.
Committee appearances would only be if things had to be escalated. If (again, hypothetically) I was to write to the club to put an opinion about this matter, then in the first instance I would write it to the staff managing the ops, not to the Committee.
Actually, I will undertake to talk to someone and find out the perceptions from the sharp end. Better it's done that way than to fester on.......
Purely from a personal view (I wouldnt want to speak for SSD on this) I've seen and been involved in enough politics at Barton in the past, NOT to want get deeply involved in them again, so I'm not criticising them with any other reason than to explore how it could be improved.
As a general observation/impression, it's been settled and positive in many ways in recent years at Barton, and I think that's a Very Good Thing. In particular, I think the flying school (instructors) are a really excellent crew right now, and I've seen other positive postings here saying much the same.
In terms of "AFISOs before the Committee", then this would run counter to the policy at Barton as I understand it, which is that there is a staff management structure, therefore (hypothetically) the AFISOs would discuss this with their line management.
Committee appearances would only be if things had to be escalated. If (again, hypothetically) I was to write to the club to put an opinion about this matter, then in the first instance I would write it to the staff managing the ops, not to the Committee.
Actually, I will undertake to talk to someone and find out the perceptions from the sharp end. Better it's done that way than to fester on.......
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Let me chuck in my two penneth as a pilot with not inconsiderable experience and as an Air traffic Controller at a busy regional airport that still embraces GA.
Fistlt it is my experience that many people who find RT distracting and a hassle are those who are less competent and/or confident in their ability with the radio. I don't intend this as a dig, just an observation from talking to yuou guys day in day out.
OK I have an advantage in that when I fly using the radio is pretty much automatic but I think this is how it should be-even in very busy situations if the RT is automatic and you don't have to think about what you are gonna say because it trips off the tongue it won't distract or hassle you; ergo not spoil your enjoyment at all.
My brother recently learned to fly and prefers going into larger airports with full ATC and controlled airspace because he enjoys the experience of mixing it with the big boys. But then after several years flying with me in the RH seat, even with only 50 hours he has no qualms about using the radio, and knows exactly what to say and when.
So my advise is if using the radio is bothering you, get some more training-if anyone needs more personal advise send me a private message I'm always happy to help people out who are struggling with the RT.
And on the subject of Barton-a litle bird at SRG tells me that the CAA(as a result of the near tragedy there a short while back) are very keen to get full ATC in.
Fistlt it is my experience that many people who find RT distracting and a hassle are those who are less competent and/or confident in their ability with the radio. I don't intend this as a dig, just an observation from talking to yuou guys day in day out.
OK I have an advantage in that when I fly using the radio is pretty much automatic but I think this is how it should be-even in very busy situations if the RT is automatic and you don't have to think about what you are gonna say because it trips off the tongue it won't distract or hassle you; ergo not spoil your enjoyment at all.
My brother recently learned to fly and prefers going into larger airports with full ATC and controlled airspace because he enjoys the experience of mixing it with the big boys. But then after several years flying with me in the RH seat, even with only 50 hours he has no qualms about using the radio, and knows exactly what to say and when.
So my advise is if using the radio is bothering you, get some more training-if anyone needs more personal advise send me a private message I'm always happy to help people out who are struggling with the RT.
And on the subject of Barton-a litle bird at SRG tells me that the CAA(as a result of the near tragedy there a short while back) are very keen to get full ATC in.
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Anyone remember "Frankie Goes to Hollywood"?
Rather a prophetic piece, maybe one for you Shaggy
(Apologies to FGTH and the bastardisation of their song, "WAR")
"FIS"
Oh no-there's got to be a better way
Say (it) again?!
There's got to be a better way-yeah
What are they there for?
FIS has caused unrest
Among the younger generation
Instruction then obstruction
Who wants to fly?
FIS-huh
What are they there for?
Absolutely nothing
Say (it) again?!
FIS-huh
What are they there for?
Absolutely nothing
Yeah
I said
FIS-huh
It's an enemy of all mankind
No point of FIS
'Cos you're a man
[Repeat]
Give it to me one time-now
Give it to me one time-now
FIS has shattered
Many young men's dreams
We've got no place for it today
They say we must fly to keep our freedom
But Lord, there's just got to be a better way
FIS
FIS-Good God, now
Now
Give it to me one time now
Now now
What are they there for?
Rather a prophetic piece, maybe one for you Shaggy
(Apologies to FGTH and the bastardisation of their song, "WAR")
"FIS"
Oh no-there's got to be a better way
Say (it) again?!
There's got to be a better way-yeah
What are they there for?
FIS has caused unrest
Among the younger generation
Instruction then obstruction
Who wants to fly?
FIS-huh
What are they there for?
Absolutely nothing
Say (it) again?!
FIS-huh
What are they there for?
Absolutely nothing
Yeah
I said
FIS-huh
It's an enemy of all mankind
No point of FIS
'Cos you're a man
[Repeat]
Give it to me one time-now
Give it to me one time-now
FIS has shattered
Many young men's dreams
We've got no place for it today
They say we must fly to keep our freedom
But Lord, there's just got to be a better way
FIS
FIS-Good God, now
Now
Give it to me one time now
Now now
What are they there for?
Last edited by rustle; 14th Apr 2003 at 22:32.
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EJ-
Your point may well be valid, but I'd like to point out that it's not the one I was making.
I love good RT - it's an art when done well. The RT exam was the first I took when I started flying in the 70s (after years of listening to RT on an air band receiver), and as I said, when I talk to Manch it's a pleasure becuase it's well done and consise and a joy to partake in. RT per se is no problem at all - quite the reverse IMHO.
At the risk of labouring it, the point I was making concerned *uneccessary* over-contolling on the ground, and the reduction in 'bandwidth' of runway use when a FISO rather than the pilot is making the descisons at small grass VFR field on whether to enter the runway and go, or whether one should wait at the hold for circuit traffic.
IMHO the pilot is best placed to make the descision, while (quite undersatndably) a FISO will be more conservative because he may not know if the guy at the hold will go immediately or delay on the runway and cause a go-around.
SSD
Your point may well be valid, but I'd like to point out that it's not the one I was making.
I love good RT - it's an art when done well. The RT exam was the first I took when I started flying in the 70s (after years of listening to RT on an air band receiver), and as I said, when I talk to Manch it's a pleasure becuase it's well done and consise and a joy to partake in. RT per se is no problem at all - quite the reverse IMHO.
At the risk of labouring it, the point I was making concerned *uneccessary* over-contolling on the ground, and the reduction in 'bandwidth' of runway use when a FISO rather than the pilot is making the descisons at small grass VFR field on whether to enter the runway and go, or whether one should wait at the hold for circuit traffic.
IMHO the pilot is best placed to make the descision, while (quite undersatndably) a FISO will be more conservative because he may not know if the guy at the hold will go immediately or delay on the runway and cause a go-around.
SSD
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Must say I think several people seem to have got the wrong end of the stick here.
We all know the feeling of surprise when you press the flip-flop on the radio after 20 minutes of peace to be met by constant chatter. I dont think SSD's post meant to insinuate that we shouldn't talk on the radio, just that some things just don't need to be said.
An example was at Popham recently when I was about to call up for a radio check/taxy. There was a chap in the circuit flying his Arrow and instead of calling "G-** downwind" what he actually said was......"G-** is early downwind for 08 left-hand Popham, 3 greens, number one to land, will call final".
His finals call was....."G-** one mile finals 08 left hand, 3 greens, surface wind check please".
The wind sock was limp, nobody else was in the circuit, we all knew that he had retractable undercarriage (he told us twice). Why bother with the waffle?
Perhaps the most amusing part was when he requested taxi instructions and didn't get an answer.
It only takes one like this to get up your nose and to that end, I can see exactly where SSD is coming from.
We all know the feeling of surprise when you press the flip-flop on the radio after 20 minutes of peace to be met by constant chatter. I dont think SSD's post meant to insinuate that we shouldn't talk on the radio, just that some things just don't need to be said.
An example was at Popham recently when I was about to call up for a radio check/taxy. There was a chap in the circuit flying his Arrow and instead of calling "G-** downwind" what he actually said was......"G-** is early downwind for 08 left-hand Popham, 3 greens, number one to land, will call final".
His finals call was....."G-** one mile finals 08 left hand, 3 greens, surface wind check please".
The wind sock was limp, nobody else was in the circuit, we all knew that he had retractable undercarriage (he told us twice). Why bother with the waffle?
Perhaps the most amusing part was when he requested taxi instructions and didn't get an answer.
It only takes one like this to get up your nose and to that end, I can see exactly where SSD is coming from.
Last edited by Monocock; 14th Apr 2003 at 21:30.
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You do hear a lot of waffle on the radio, and it is true that most of the worst offenders are pilots.
Even so, you may be being a bit severe on your Arrow pilot.
In France we teach pilots of retractables to say "three greens" on final approach as part of their approach discipline. In the French Air Force we used that approach too, and I think the RAF still teach it.
Also Popham radio traffic regularly interferes with traffic at another UK airfield (is it Born?) so that pilots at both fields are taught to announce the name of the field they are addressing to avoid confusing.
OK, the rest of what he said is all junk, but I thought that these two bits were worthy of comment!
I thought it was funny to see that it is not just France where Arrow pilots are very keen to prove that they are not just Cherokees
Even so, you may be being a bit severe on your Arrow pilot.
In France we teach pilots of retractables to say "three greens" on final approach as part of their approach discipline. In the French Air Force we used that approach too, and I think the RAF still teach it.
Also Popham radio traffic regularly interferes with traffic at another UK airfield (is it Born?) so that pilots at both fields are taught to announce the name of the field they are addressing to avoid confusing.
OK, the rest of what he said is all junk, but I thought that these two bits were worthy of comment!
I thought it was funny to see that it is not just France where Arrow pilots are very keen to prove that they are not just Cherokees
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'Unicom' works well in the good 'ol US of A because everybody uses it, everybody has been brought up with it and the country is HUGE. Radio discipline is good, and everyone gets on with it.
In the UK, its different. No radio discipline at all, too many gob$hites wanting to tell everyone where they are, what height they are, what power setting they are using, all within a country the size of one American State. Which is probably why 'Unicom' is never realistically going to happen in the UK. Just have a listen to 118.000 on any busy weekend for an example of constant, and pointless chit-chat.
In the UK, its different. No radio discipline at all, too many gob$hites wanting to tell everyone where they are, what height they are, what power setting they are using, all within a country the size of one American State. Which is probably why 'Unicom' is never realistically going to happen in the UK. Just have a listen to 118.000 on any busy weekend for an example of constant, and pointless chit-chat.
http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/183931-1.html
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Monocock
Have to agree with you that some people get so full of themselves or they just love the sound of their own voice.
Pilots can be as bad too.
I was taught when ready to depart after the power checks to say "G XX ready for departure lining up yz" as an example.
I often hear some giving a running commentary along the lines of
G XX power checks complete, ready for departure
G XX entering runway yz
G XX lining up
G XX rolling
what's the need for all that???????????, we know they will be entering and rolling (unless there is another way to depart) Helis excluded here
I almost expect him to start giving us commentary on flaps up, scratching his a**e, etc but by then he has usually swapped frequencies.
It would be funny except that when it's busy there are people trying to get more relevant calls in.
Have to agree with you that some people get so full of themselves or they just love the sound of their own voice.
Pilots can be as bad too.
I was taught when ready to depart after the power checks to say "G XX ready for departure lining up yz" as an example.
I often hear some giving a running commentary along the lines of
G XX power checks complete, ready for departure
G XX entering runway yz
G XX lining up
G XX rolling
what's the need for all that???????????, we know they will be entering and rolling (unless there is another way to depart) Helis excluded here
I almost expect him to start giving us commentary on flaps up, scratching his a**e, etc but by then he has usually swapped frequencies.
It would be funny except that when it's busy there are people trying to get more relevant calls in.
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Northen Highflyer, if the field & frequency was quiet then
it's perfectly reasonable to give some indication that
you are in the active and what you're doing there.
It gives other aircraft approaching more than one chance
to pick up on the fact of where you are and which direction
you're going to be taking off on...decreasing the chance of
someone landing towards you as you take-off due to a
difference in interpretation of the surface wind direction.
Of course brevity is important but it cuts both ways,
-- Andrew
it's perfectly reasonable to give some indication that
you are in the active and what you're doing there.
It gives other aircraft approaching more than one chance
to pick up on the fact of where you are and which direction
you're going to be taking off on...decreasing the chance of
someone landing towards you as you take-off due to a
difference in interpretation of the surface wind direction.
Of course brevity is important but it cuts both ways,
-- Andrew
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Northern Highflyer - at the A/G field I operate from, I tend to make calls such as 'G-xx Ready for Departure', 'G-xx Backtracking xx' (where applicable) and 'G-xx Rolling xx'. I may well miss the 'Rolling' call if the circuit's not active. On landing, if the circuit's active, I'll usually call when I've vacated the active runway. I realise that this may well fall in your 'running commentary' category, but at an uncontrolled field, I'd rather let circuit traffic have a mental picture of what's around them to let them plan accordingly rather than just hoping that they'll see me.
I realise that a lot of this is down to personal preference and a balance has to be achieved betwen excessive radio calls and not enough. If in doubt (and I'm not busy aviating / navigating), then I place a high priority on communicating my position / intentions to the traffic around me BUT at the same time, balancing this with the level of radio traffic at any one time. I've even been known to miss out downwind calls when it's busy....
I realise that a lot of this is down to personal preference and a balance has to be achieved betwen excessive radio calls and not enough. If in doubt (and I'm not busy aviating / navigating), then I place a high priority on communicating my position / intentions to the traffic around me BUT at the same time, balancing this with the level of radio traffic at any one time. I've even been known to miss out downwind calls when it's busy....
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I too always call backtracks and runway vacated but if I have already said that I am ready for departure and lining up I don't use the rolling call.
Maybe it's the way I have been taught but I have heard very few use the rolling call and theres nothing in CAP 413 about it either.
I agree you can't be too safe with regards letting people know where you are but there has to be a limit.
Maybe it's the way I have been taught but I have heard very few use the rolling call and theres nothing in CAP 413 about it either.
I agree you can't be too safe with regards letting people know where you are but there has to be a limit.
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There is a time and a place for everything..........
One of the airfields I fly from has a bit of a hump in the middle and therefore you can not see anyone on the initial take off roll when you are at th'other end.
As it is A/G only I do call 'rolling' as I rather use a bit of airwave than my superior piloting skills to avoid an encounter on the runway with peeps coming up my end!
FD
One of the airfields I fly from has a bit of a hump in the middle and therefore you can not see anyone on the initial take off roll when you are at th'other end.
As it is A/G only I do call 'rolling' as I rather use a bit of airwave than my superior piloting skills to avoid an encounter on the runway with peeps coming up my end!
FD
