Cost Sharing
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Cost Sharing
I took a friend flying a few months ago, and we shared the cost of the flight, which was 40mins in a C152. I flew him over his house and home town etc. After landing he told me how much he enjoyed the flight, having previously been a very nervous passenger in jets, and this was his first small plane experience.
He was due to come up with me last weekend after I invited him to fly with his uncle in a PA28, who also wants to fly over his house, but cancelled at the last minute. He now tells me that it is wrong for me to be sharing the cost of the plane, as I only want to fill the seat to help build my hours. Is it so wrong of me to share the cost? I know I am legally allowed to do so, and I cant see any harm in this at all? Although, it does help me build hours (and experience), I cant see this as a reason why I shouldnt ask for an equal share of the cost from the people I invite to fly with me.
Needless to say, I wont be inviting him again, but I am very concerned this may happen with other friends who I fairly regularly take flying and share costs. Am I missing something here? Has anyone else experienced such an issue?
He was due to come up with me last weekend after I invited him to fly with his uncle in a PA28, who also wants to fly over his house, but cancelled at the last minute. He now tells me that it is wrong for me to be sharing the cost of the plane, as I only want to fill the seat to help build my hours. Is it so wrong of me to share the cost? I know I am legally allowed to do so, and I cant see any harm in this at all? Although, it does help me build hours (and experience), I cant see this as a reason why I shouldnt ask for an equal share of the cost from the people I invite to fly with me.
Needless to say, I wont be inviting him again, but I am very concerned this may happen with other friends who I fairly regularly take flying and share costs. Am I missing something here? Has anyone else experienced such an issue?
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Hmmm. Interesting one. As you say, perfectly legal. I've known people who never fly without a passenger who isnt paying a share, to the extent that they are quite often meeting the pax for the first time at the club !
Personally, the times I took friends as a pax I never asked for any money (other than the day membership they had to pay), as I wanted to fly, and didnt mind having a friend.
I suppose it comes down to how much you ask them for. If i was a ppl and cost sharing I certainly would ask for less than the % (i.e. less than 50% for 1 pax).
As you say, if they dont want to pay, they dont fly. Yes you are building hours, but you are also enjoying the flying. They are also enjoying the flight, arguably more so as they never have done it !!
Personally, the times I took friends as a pax I never asked for any money (other than the day membership they had to pay), as I wanted to fly, and didnt mind having a friend.
I suppose it comes down to how much you ask them for. If i was a ppl and cost sharing I certainly would ask for less than the % (i.e. less than 50% for 1 pax).
As you say, if they dont want to pay, they dont fly. Yes you are building hours, but you are also enjoying the flying. They are also enjoying the flight, arguably more so as they never have done it !!
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mumraa
That’s a shocking thing for a friend to say, frankly his/her attitude borders on the ungrateful, and quite frankly is not deserving of your kind invitation. I experienced something like this briefly but not as harsh..
You’re not doing anything wrong - as you rightly point out, its quite legal so long as the costs are equally split. I also share costs with other flyers, its the only way to hour build.
I am lucky because I have an excellent PA28 share that’s cheap on fuel. As a rule, I only take non-aviation enthusiasts as part of the usual 'pleasure flights' that every new PPL seems to have to do. To be honest, these pleasure flights are hardly taxing (flying round their house etc), and probably isn’t the best form of hour building.
I tend not to invite other guys from my share too often because they'll want to fly the return leg, hence hour building suffers - may seem selfish but us wannabes have an agenda! However, these guys are normally more experienced so have something to offer.
Instead I invite friends (stress invite, not force or nag) who are student/new PPL's to share the workload and are quite willing to split the low hourly costs. Most see it as a bargain because they spend over £100 with instructor and plane for PPL training, but flying with me costs them a fraction of that. I must iterate that I am NOT attempting to act as an instructor on these flights.
Perhaps you should give it a try. Its great if they have a few hours under their belt because they can normally fly straight and level, leaving you time to really improve navigation technique, radio calls, in flight progress etc, in flight checks etc etc. Makes a better pilot of you in my opinion, drums it home.
Best of luck,
Bodie
That’s a shocking thing for a friend to say, frankly his/her attitude borders on the ungrateful, and quite frankly is not deserving of your kind invitation. I experienced something like this briefly but not as harsh..
You’re not doing anything wrong - as you rightly point out, its quite legal so long as the costs are equally split. I also share costs with other flyers, its the only way to hour build.
I am lucky because I have an excellent PA28 share that’s cheap on fuel. As a rule, I only take non-aviation enthusiasts as part of the usual 'pleasure flights' that every new PPL seems to have to do. To be honest, these pleasure flights are hardly taxing (flying round their house etc), and probably isn’t the best form of hour building.
I tend not to invite other guys from my share too often because they'll want to fly the return leg, hence hour building suffers - may seem selfish but us wannabes have an agenda! However, these guys are normally more experienced so have something to offer.
Instead I invite friends (stress invite, not force or nag) who are student/new PPL's to share the workload and are quite willing to split the low hourly costs. Most see it as a bargain because they spend over £100 with instructor and plane for PPL training, but flying with me costs them a fraction of that. I must iterate that I am NOT attempting to act as an instructor on these flights.
Perhaps you should give it a try. Its great if they have a few hours under their belt because they can normally fly straight and level, leaving you time to really improve navigation technique, radio calls, in flight progress etc, in flight checks etc etc. Makes a better pilot of you in my opinion, drums it home.
Best of luck,
Bodie
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Dear Marge
I am training to be a professional chef and would love one day to be in charge of a large and expensive restaurant. I need experience in cooking, so I invite my friends over for dinner. I present them with a bill as they leave (service not included). Now they don't want to eat at my house anymore. What shall I do?
Yours, Delia.
I am training to be a professional chef and would love one day to be in charge of a large and expensive restaurant. I need experience in cooking, so I invite my friends over for dinner. I present them with a bill as they leave (service not included). Now they don't want to eat at my house anymore. What shall I do?
Yours, Delia.
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My first flight in a small plane was years ago with a friend who had just passed his PPL. I had no problem paying for the share of the plane, I thought it went without saying, and he didnt have to ask me to share costs. I thought I was really lucky to have a friend who could take me flying.
Unfortunately, I dont have much money, and it has taken me 10 years and all my savings to be able to afford my PPL. I would love to have enough money to buy my own plane and afford the running costs so I can take my friends flying for free, but I cant.
Can you compare a dinner invitation with hiring a plane for an hour? I've always offered to contribute to the cost of a meal cooked by friends anyway, or at least done the washing up in return. Perhaps a similar comparison to cost sharing a plane would be hiring a car and everyone sharing the cost. Or hiring a boat for the day? I'm not making any profit out of inviting my friends flying.
I am definitely going to try sharing with similar new PPL's and students now. Its a great idea and then my share of the cost of the plane will be put to good use. Great idea Bodie.
Unfortunately, I dont have much money, and it has taken me 10 years and all my savings to be able to afford my PPL. I would love to have enough money to buy my own plane and afford the running costs so I can take my friends flying for free, but I cant.
Can you compare a dinner invitation with hiring a plane for an hour? I've always offered to contribute to the cost of a meal cooked by friends anyway, or at least done the washing up in return. Perhaps a similar comparison to cost sharing a plane would be hiring a car and everyone sharing the cost. Or hiring a boat for the day? I'm not making any profit out of inviting my friends flying.
I am definitely going to try sharing with similar new PPL's and students now. Its a great idea and then my share of the cost of the plane will be put to good use. Great idea Bodie.
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My friend has just bought a new Ferrari. He asked me if I wanted to come for a spin in it, naturally I said yes. We had a great time with him zooming round the lanes etc, although he did all the driving. At the end he asked me to pay half the cost of the trip (total running cost, not just petrol)......
I never ask anyone to help pay for me to indulge in my hobby.
I never ask anyone to help pay for me to indulge in my hobby.
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My own position is like PhilD's: I never ask those foolhardy enough to come flying with me to pay for the privilege of experiencing mind-shattering terror. It's a matter of taste and judgment, I suppose, but it seems to me slightly ungracious to expect, as a matter of course, that one's friends should subsidise either one's hobby or one's professional training. Tiffs might be avoided by accepting contributions if they are offered, but not pressing the point if they are not. Obviously, if keen aviators (studes, PPLs, aspirants, whatever) agree to fly together, then there may be nothing awkward about discussing the costs. I do agree, by the way, that the stance adopted by the friend you refer to in your original post does itself appear somewhat ungracious, at least in his manner of expressing the problem. Anyway, best of luck with your hour building and career aspirations.
Last edited by FNG; 29th Jan 2003 at 10:02.
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When I ask a friend if they would like to come flying, i first ask where they would like to fly. Then I explain how much the plane costs and that i will pay an equal or slightly higher proportion of the cost. My friends all know how much work and money I have put into this, and the majority have no problem at all in paying an equal share, just like me when I flew for the first time all those years ago.
I dont have any friends with ferraris unfortunately. But if a friend hired one, i certainly wouldnt have a problem in contributing to the cost for a spin in it.
I dont have any friends with ferraris unfortunately. But if a friend hired one, i certainly wouldnt have a problem in contributing to the cost for a spin in it.
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Well said mumraa
Those comments about 'cooking experience' are lame - catering colleges run nights for the general public, for which the customer PAYS, is this wrong FNG?? After all the cooks are students trying to better themselves are they not?
PhilD's comment about the Ferrari is just rubbish. Firstly, your not springing the costs on people- they are fully aware before they fly. Secondly, flying will be indulging your hobby, but its more than that, it's going to be a career, as I said in my last post, us wannabes have an agenda, so as long as people are aware and willing don't feel guilty about it.
Bodie
Those comments about 'cooking experience' are lame - catering colleges run nights for the general public, for which the customer PAYS, is this wrong FNG?? After all the cooks are students trying to better themselves are they not?
PhilD's comment about the Ferrari is just rubbish. Firstly, your not springing the costs on people- they are fully aware before they fly. Secondly, flying will be indulging your hobby, but its more than that, it's going to be a career, as I said in my last post, us wannabes have an agenda, so as long as people are aware and willing don't feel guilty about it.
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If you are flying with someone because you invited them along for the experience of of a ride then it is taking the p1ss to ask them for money unless they have approached you for the ride. The Chef/Ferrari analogy made me smile I have to say 
One thing I have found out is that taking someone up for the company and experience and not charging them can pay dividends in other ways at a future date that far outway the £50 I would have got !!!!
If you and a group of mates need to get somewhere and you are flying then by all means split the costs! A mate of mine does this each year to get him and his mates to Le Mans for the racing.
One thing I have found out is that taking someone up for the company and experience and not charging them can pay dividends in other ways at a future date that far outway the £50 I would have got !!!!
If you and a group of mates need to get somewhere and you are flying then by all means split the costs! A mate of mine does this each year to get him and his mates to Le Mans for the racing.
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Actually, I do have a friend with a Ferrari, he picked me up in it, took me to the airfield and we went flying in my plane.
He paid half of the flying, as an exPPl he knows the cost. I didn't pay for the Ferrari trip. Why not? I suppose that cars are more accessible than aircraft, pax expect to pay to fly and not when they are driven. Had we been on a long run in the Ferrari, then I would have offered to pay.
Is it unreasonable to ask for a contribution, I think not. By flying people, we are using our hard earned skills to give passenger an experience that they cannot achieve by themselves. So it is not unreasonable to ask for payment. No one that I have yet flown has begrudged paying me and yes, my passengers have funded my hours-building but I have no ambition to fly commercially.
The problem arises if you start 'touting for business', where you start saying 'Come fly with me - it will cost this much'
I think there is nothing wrong in declaring, 'Yes I have a PPL, I'll take passengers but it costs this much'. That way, if someone wants to fly, they approach you knowing from the beginning that it will cost them.
He paid half of the flying, as an exPPl he knows the cost. I didn't pay for the Ferrari trip. Why not? I suppose that cars are more accessible than aircraft, pax expect to pay to fly and not when they are driven. Had we been on a long run in the Ferrari, then I would have offered to pay.
Is it unreasonable to ask for a contribution, I think not. By flying people, we are using our hard earned skills to give passenger an experience that they cannot achieve by themselves. So it is not unreasonable to ask for payment. No one that I have yet flown has begrudged paying me and yes, my passengers have funded my hours-building but I have no ambition to fly commercially.
The problem arises if you start 'touting for business', where you start saying 'Come fly with me - it will cost this much'
I think there is nothing wrong in declaring, 'Yes I have a PPL, I'll take passengers but it costs this much'. That way, if someone wants to fly, they approach you knowing from the beginning that it will cost them.
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Bizzare.
If you invite someone to come flying, it shouldn't then cost them anything except maybe a cup of coffee.
However, if they ask you to fly them somewhere then it's entirely reasonable they pick up part of the flight cost.
Trying to build hours by charging your friends to help you sounds like a pretty good way to end up with no friends.
My 2p.
If you invite someone to come flying, it shouldn't then cost them anything except maybe a cup of coffee.
However, if they ask you to fly them somewhere then it's entirely reasonable they pick up part of the flight cost.
Trying to build hours by charging your friends to help you sounds like a pretty good way to end up with no friends.
My 2p.
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I think not. By flying people, we are using our hard earned skills to give passenger an experience that they cannot achieve by themselves. So it is not unreasonable to ask for payment.
I think the answer's clear - bite the bullet, enjoy your flying and if someone offers you something for it then accept graciously. Explaining how much it costs and how much you expect them to pay is putting you on very dodgy ground legally. I've flown with many people who've never asked me for payment, I've flown others and have never asked myself - personally I think it's an appalling abuse of your licence privileges if you are asking and I'm sure the CAA's legal department would be interested too.
CM
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My cooking analogy is "lame", and Phil's (to my mind, amusing and apposite) Ferrari analogy is "rubbish"....
It is always pleasant to be reminded of why I sooooo do not want to be an airline pilot.
As I've said, I would never ask or expect a friend to pay to fly with me, but, if I did, and he said no, I wouldn't go on about it as though it was in some way a terrible injustice for your acquaintances to decline to assist financially in the achievement of your ambitions or fulfilment of your enthusiasms. At the risk of sounding like one of Monty Python's four Yorkshireman (by eck, lad, we 'ad it tough), I recall that I trained for my profession without grants etc. I did grotty McJobs, sponged off my (non-wealthy) parents, ran guns/drugs/vice girls etc etc (no, no, Mr Bar Council, some of that is not true). I didn't pass the hat around my friends.
[exits hastily in direction of tin-hat cupboard, humming Dorothy Parton/Tammy Wynette classic "No Charge"]
It is always pleasant to be reminded of why I sooooo do not want to be an airline pilot.
As I've said, I would never ask or expect a friend to pay to fly with me, but, if I did, and he said no, I wouldn't go on about it as though it was in some way a terrible injustice for your acquaintances to decline to assist financially in the achievement of your ambitions or fulfilment of your enthusiasms. At the risk of sounding like one of Monty Python's four Yorkshireman (by eck, lad, we 'ad it tough), I recall that I trained for my profession without grants etc. I did grotty McJobs, sponged off my (non-wealthy) parents, ran guns/drugs/vice girls etc etc (no, no, Mr Bar Council, some of that is not true). I didn't pass the hat around my friends.
[exits hastily in direction of tin-hat cupboard, humming Dorothy Parton/Tammy Wynette classic "No Charge"]
Last edited by FNG; 29th Jan 2003 at 10:08.
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I am certainly not breaking the law by asking if people want to come flying with me on the basis that we share the cost. There is NO profit in it for me other than experience, and i certainly dont advertise the flights. I also, only fly where my passengers want to fly, and I still pay at least an equal share myself.
The debate began when my friend's uncle ASKED me to take him flying so he could fly over his house and home town. I explained to him how much the plane would cost, but I would pay an equal share to help make it affordable. I asked my friend if he would like to come up again, but this time with his uncle and in a 4 seater. He agreed, and dont forget he had already been up with me before on a cost sharing basis, with no complaint. He cancelled the night before the flight because he said the weather wasnt going to be suitable. fair enough.
His uncle still wants me to take him flying over his house, despite his nephews comments and has no issue with paying an equal share. (He originally offered to pay the entire cost of the plane. I explained to him the limitations of my private license, and that it is beneficial for me to get the experience anyway).
I think it very fortunate if you are wealthy enough or in a position to take people up for nothing, I dearly wish I was. Unfortunately, that is not the case and the only way I can afford to fulfil this childhood ambition of mine is by sharing the costs. If this is morally unacceptable then perhaps I should except the fact that I cant afford it, and leave the joy of flight to the elite that can.
The debate began when my friend's uncle ASKED me to take him flying so he could fly over his house and home town. I explained to him how much the plane would cost, but I would pay an equal share to help make it affordable. I asked my friend if he would like to come up again, but this time with his uncle and in a 4 seater. He agreed, and dont forget he had already been up with me before on a cost sharing basis, with no complaint. He cancelled the night before the flight because he said the weather wasnt going to be suitable. fair enough.
His uncle still wants me to take him flying over his house, despite his nephews comments and has no issue with paying an equal share. (He originally offered to pay the entire cost of the plane. I explained to him the limitations of my private license, and that it is beneficial for me to get the experience anyway).
I think it very fortunate if you are wealthy enough or in a position to take people up for nothing, I dearly wish I was. Unfortunately, that is not the case and the only way I can afford to fulfil this childhood ambition of mine is by sharing the costs. If this is morally unacceptable then perhaps I should except the fact that I cant afford it, and leave the joy of flight to the elite that can.
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Well I have never asked a friend to cost share, simply because I can afford it, and most of them can't.
Were my financial circumstances different I would not have a problem asking anyone who wanted to come flying with me, to cost share. Some have offered, but I have not accepted to date. However I may organise a foreign trip later in the year, and cost sharing will definately be part of that.
If someone wants to come flying (either because you offered or they asked), then you explain to them the risks, the uncertainty of weather etc, and tell them, there and then, about cost sharing. If they are not happy to pay their share of the costs (some will not be able to afford it), then they will probably just say that they will come back to you with a date, and never get back. If they don't get back to you, then just leave it, and don't pressurise them by keep on asking for a date. All this is perfectly acceptable in my opinion, as everybody knows where they stand. This is what I understand happened in Mumraaa's situation.
However, if you offer to fly someone, and only later tell them about the cost sharing, or you put pressure on them to come (never a good idea-cost sharing or not), then it is you who are wrong, not them.
Simple really!!
Were my financial circumstances different I would not have a problem asking anyone who wanted to come flying with me, to cost share. Some have offered, but I have not accepted to date. However I may organise a foreign trip later in the year, and cost sharing will definately be part of that.
If someone wants to come flying (either because you offered or they asked), then you explain to them the risks, the uncertainty of weather etc, and tell them, there and then, about cost sharing. If they are not happy to pay their share of the costs (some will not be able to afford it), then they will probably just say that they will come back to you with a date, and never get back. If they don't get back to you, then just leave it, and don't pressurise them by keep on asking for a date. All this is perfectly acceptable in my opinion, as everybody knows where they stand. This is what I understand happened in Mumraaa's situation.
However, if you offer to fly someone, and only later tell them about the cost sharing, or you put pressure on them to come (never a good idea-cost sharing or not), then it is you who are wrong, not them.
Simple really!!
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Hi Mumraa
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=invite
To ask for the presence or participation of: invite friends to dinner; invite writers to a conference.
To request formally: invited us to be seated.
To welcome; encourage: invite questions from the audience.
To tend to bring on; provoke: “Divisions at home would invite dangers from abroad” (John Jay).
To entice; tempt.
If I get invited I dont expect to pay. I may offer but I dont expect to pay from the outset.
I think that as long as you make clear what your definitions and expectations are you will find that everyone will be happy. But dont expect invited people to be happy to just open their wallets happily.
FD
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=invite
To ask for the presence or participation of: invite friends to dinner; invite writers to a conference.
To request formally: invited us to be seated.
To welcome; encourage: invite questions from the audience.
To tend to bring on; provoke: “Divisions at home would invite dangers from abroad” (John Jay).
To entice; tempt.
If I get invited I dont expect to pay. I may offer but I dont expect to pay from the outset.
I think that as long as you make clear what your definitions and expectations are you will find that everyone will be happy. But dont expect invited people to be happy to just open their wallets happily.
FD
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As a student PPL I consider myself lucky to be in the fortunate position to be able the share the costs of flying with a qualified pilot. Well, OK..Its not me doing the flying (except for the odd S&L), but I get to experience navigation, RT, good airmanship required and a host of questions answered.
These shared costs are considerably cheaper than lessons but the observational experience gained in a more relaxed environment can only be beneficial to the learning process, and may, in some cases, mean fewer lessons in the long run.
It has also given me experience of other airfields and Pprune Fly-Ins ! I expect to pay my share as both pilot and passenger both benefit from this arrangement.
In my opinion if you invite friends who know you well and may know your financial position, they would also expect to share the costs ; especially if they have the choice of where you fly.
These shared costs are considerably cheaper than lessons but the observational experience gained in a more relaxed environment can only be beneficial to the learning process, and may, in some cases, mean fewer lessons in the long run.
It has also given me experience of other airfields and Pprune Fly-Ins ! I expect to pay my share as both pilot and passenger both benefit from this arrangement.
In my opinion if you invite friends who know you well and may know your financial position, they would also expect to share the costs ; especially if they have the choice of where you fly.
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I don't have a friend with a Ferrari, but I do have a friend with a Boxter. When I took him flying he drove me to the airport and scared the s*it out of me. As I am a firm believer in fairness, once airborne, I scared the s*it out of him 
On a serious note...I wouldn't ask for money from my mates, unless if they approached me for a trip to the channel islands or something special. Even then I'd probably pay the costs [and not tell them about fuel drawback ] and they'd pay for lunch / beer / women etc.
Cheers
EA
On a serious note...I wouldn't ask for money from my mates, unless if they approached me for a trip to the channel islands or something special. Even then I'd probably pay the costs [and not tell them about fuel drawback
] and they'd pay for lunch / beer / women etc. Cheers
EA