Cost Sharing
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: England
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My take on it would be that its a question of good manners!
If you are good enough to invite your mate it would be poor form of you to expect him to pay unless that is what was agreed in advance. By contrast he should have the decency to realise that flying is an expensive hobby and should make the offer.
if the arrangements dont suit both parties they wont last ie you wont have his company and he wont get a jolly.
If you feel that he's taking advantage dont invite him again if he feels ripped off he wont want to come.
Most pilots I take up offer most non pilots dont.
The kitchen sink analagies are poor, a better one harks back to my rugby days . For away matches the driver always got paid at a rate agreed for all by the captain + got free beer.
Sounds like yer mates tight.
If you are good enough to invite your mate it would be poor form of you to expect him to pay unless that is what was agreed in advance. By contrast he should have the decency to realise that flying is an expensive hobby and should make the offer.
if the arrangements dont suit both parties they wont last ie you wont have his company and he wont get a jolly.
If you feel that he's taking advantage dont invite him again if he feels ripped off he wont want to come.
Most pilots I take up offer most non pilots dont.
The kitchen sink analagies are poor, a better one harks back to my rugby days . For away matches the driver always got paid at a rate agreed for all by the captain + got free beer.
Sounds like yer mates tight.
Join Date: Apr 2001
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I really enjoy taking friends flying. I feel that it is part of a GA/Country-wide recruitment drive into GA, which will pay dividends for all of us in the long-run. Frankly, many clubs and schools don't do such a good job at advertising GA (IMHO).
If someone offers to make a donation, I'll happily accept and am happy with a fiver or fifty.
I've had some surprise favours in return, like the time I had major problems with my car, and the mechanic who I'd taken flying a year before had never forgotten it, and did the repair work for nothing.
If someone offers to make a donation, I'll happily accept and am happy with a fiver or fifty.
I've had some surprise favours in return, like the time I had major problems with my car, and the mechanic who I'd taken flying a year before had never forgotten it, and did the repair work for nothing.
Join Date: Oct 2002
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I wouldn't dream of asking a friend to contribute to my flying these day's but of course I can afford it now but when I remember back to being a student, we would alway's split the petrol in the car even if we were only going 30 miles.
I suppose it boils down to the hobby v proffessional thing, if you want to hour build for your atpl, you are usually the poor student and I think we should contribute to your costs, if you want to fly as a hobby, you should be able to afford pay for it or do something else.
I suppose it boils down to the hobby v proffessional thing, if you want to hour build for your atpl, you are usually the poor student and I think we should contribute to your costs, if you want to fly as a hobby, you should be able to afford pay for it or do something else.
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Join Date: Jan 2003
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I think my use of the word 'invite' has been misinterpreted here. It was meant in the sense that, I asked my friends if they would like to come flying with me and share the costs of the plane too. Please note I have been particularly careful to make it clear to my friends that flying would be on a cost sharing basis.
As a fairly skilled mechanic myself, I'm regularly fixing my friends cars. I've spent entire weekends fitting engines and fuel injection systems for custom conversions etc for nothing more than a beer. Since becoming involved with IT, I find much of my spare time is in addition spent fixing friends (and friends of friends) computers, including my friend in question. I've even taught some friends to windsurf for free, exept they had to hire the boards from the school. Never have I asked for payment, or expected anything in return.
Its just that I cant afford to fly them for free too!
As a fairly skilled mechanic myself, I'm regularly fixing my friends cars. I've spent entire weekends fitting engines and fuel injection systems for custom conversions etc for nothing more than a beer. Since becoming involved with IT, I find much of my spare time is in addition spent fixing friends (and friends of friends) computers, including my friend in question. I've even taught some friends to windsurf for free, exept they had to hire the boards from the school. Never have I asked for payment, or expected anything in return.
Its just that I cant afford to fly them for free too!
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Surrey, UK.
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Its just that I cant afford to fly them for free too!
Ahhh, but that's just the thing isn't it. It doesn't cost you any extra to take people with you.
Assuming you need to do the hours anyway (which, I think, was the point) - having a bit of company with you while you bore endless holes in the sky is to your benefit.
Were there any justice in this world you should pay them
Hope this helps
Ahhh, but that's just the thing isn't it. It doesn't cost you any extra to take people with you.
Assuming you need to do the hours anyway (which, I think, was the point) - having a bit of company with you while you bore endless holes in the sky is to your benefit.
Were there any justice in this world you should pay them
Hope this helps
Join Date: Jun 2000
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mumraa - i agree; invite can mean lots of things.
How many people think that if they are invited to go for a meal in a restaurant with friends that they shouldnt be expected to pay a share in the costs ????
How many people think that if they are invited to go for a meal in a restaurant with friends that they shouldnt be expected to pay a share in the costs ????
Join Date: Jun 2001
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Rustle has it spot on (not for the first time)
The restaurant meal analogy does not work - if I am invited to a meal in a restsaurant with friends I get exactly the same benefit as they do - meal, company etc, and I naturally expect to pay my share. When I go flying I go for my benefit - if someone wants to come with me for company that's more benefit to me. If they enjoy it then we're both happy.
IMHO if you need your friends to subsidise your flying habit you need to look for another hobby, or you are likely to end up with no friends - sad but true.
The restaurant meal analogy does not work - if I am invited to a meal in a restsaurant with friends I get exactly the same benefit as they do - meal, company etc, and I naturally expect to pay my share. When I go flying I go for my benefit - if someone wants to come with me for company that's more benefit to me. If they enjoy it then we're both happy.
IMHO if you need your friends to subsidise your flying habit you need to look for another hobby, or you are likely to end up with no friends - sad but true.
Join Date: Oct 2001
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If I fly with other PPLs, then we each pay for the leg(s) that we fly.
If I take passengers they do not share the costs. The exception is some friends, who fly as passengers very frequently. In these cases I am happy to accept their offers to pay for the refreshments, landing fees, & taxis at away stops, but I would not expect them to pay anything else.
If I take passengers they do not share the costs. The exception is some friends, who fly as passengers very frequently. In these cases I am happy to accept their offers to pay for the refreshments, landing fees, & taxis at away stops, but I would not expect them to pay anything else.
Not so N, but still FG
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I agree with PhilD (again). So long as we live in this hustle-hustle society in which we have to compete with one another for access to limited resources, none of us has any fundamental right to do everything that we want to do, whether as a career, or for leisure. Hey, I for one would love to play polo as a hobby, but I can't afford to (it's a sport which makes flying look cheap by comparison). So: I don't play polo. Aint life unjust! I think I'll head off to the polo players' pprune and whinge about how my stingy mates won't contribute to my ambition to score the winning goal in the final against a crack Argentinian team. Whilst I'm at it, I'll file a complaint on the Formula One drivers' pprune about how I wanted to be number one driver for the Ferrari team, but no one I knew would subsidise me to do the go-cart or formula Ford racing, so I couldn't even get into the paddock. Huh, so-called friends eh?
Join Date: Apr 2001
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Seems pilot mates are being brought into the reasoning now.
If you are both flying them get him to contribute - as a mate and myself do, we both fly half way and we split the costs therefore we are still paying 100% of our costs for loggable hours.
If I was invited by a pilot and was asked for half the costs I would say "Sure, I take it I am logging half the P1 hours then?"
You cant have it both ways.
If you are both flying them get him to contribute - as a mate and myself do, we both fly half way and we split the costs therefore we are still paying 100% of our costs for loggable hours.
If I was invited by a pilot and was asked for half the costs I would say "Sure, I take it I am logging half the P1 hours then?"
You cant have it both ways.
Join Date: Nov 2002
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I usually find that when at the AD.....if i fall to the floor, and start pounding the ground with my fists, and sobbing uncontrollably, telling my friends how skint i am..it usually touches their heartstrings....they give me money, but for some reason, go off the idea of flying with me......i dont know why........
Join Date: Oct 2002
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This freind paying for you flying must be some joke?
I would not let my freind pay for my fun. It is not good mannered and will only lead to big problems in time coming.
It is not elite to fly but it is proud to do so which is not the same thing I don think
I would not let my freind pay for my fun. It is not good mannered and will only lead to big problems in time coming.
It is not elite to fly but it is proud to do so which is not the same thing I don think
Join Date: Aug 2001
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If I invite a non-pilot pax, I certainly don't ask for a contribution, but will accept one if it is offered, and is within the rules. Sometimes the offer is made, sometimes not. Neither affects my opinion of the pax.
If I'm asked by a non-pilot pax, then I would explain the costs and suggest a (legal) contribution - but certainly not if the pax were a youngster, they should be encouraged, as I was. I guess if the person asking for a trip then refused any contribution, that might well affect my opinion of them....
With my PPL friends-and-colleagues we operate an 'unwritten' rule of neither asking for nor offering payment for pax time; as we frequently invite each other for pax flights it usually evens up over time. However, the talking-freight usually buys the coffees, the bacon butties, and pays the landing fee.
Just occasionally it's good for the soul to do a completely solo flight, but usually I would much rather fill a spare-seat.
Interestingly I believe it is legal to equally share the full rental cost of a hired aeroplane, but an owner can only share the direct hourly costs such as fuel, and not any part of the fixed costs such as hangarage, insurance etc.
Slip
If I'm asked by a non-pilot pax, then I would explain the costs and suggest a (legal) contribution - but certainly not if the pax were a youngster, they should be encouraged, as I was. I guess if the person asking for a trip then refused any contribution, that might well affect my opinion of them....
With my PPL friends-and-colleagues we operate an 'unwritten' rule of neither asking for nor offering payment for pax time; as we frequently invite each other for pax flights it usually evens up over time. However, the talking-freight usually buys the coffees, the bacon butties, and pays the landing fee.
Just occasionally it's good for the soul to do a completely solo flight, but usually I would much rather fill a spare-seat.
Interestingly I believe it is legal to equally share the full rental cost of a hired aeroplane, but an owner can only share the direct hourly costs such as fuel, and not any part of the fixed costs such as hangarage, insurance etc.
Slip
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Let me make this clear, particularly to FNG and PhilD who have made some unfair, unrealistic and unnecessary analogies.
I ASK my friends if THEY WOULD LIKE to come flying with me. I make it clear that WOULD THEY MIND paying an equal share of the cost of the aircraft. I am not TELLING them to come fly with me! When asked, they can reply "sorry, I cant afford it", or, "sure, lets go", usually its the latter. Surely there is no wrong in this???
Now that I have had my licence for several months, I am finding an increasing number or friends and colleagues are approaching me to take them flying. This would indicate that the majority of those who have flown with me appreciated their flight/s, and not objected to sharing the costs.
I think those who can afford to own/rent a 4 seater aircraft without cost sharing each flight are very fortunate. Unfortunately, this is not the case for me, but I certainly do NOT see this as a reason why I should be excluded from flying as PhilD, you suggest. Thats elitism. If necessary I can share costs with other PPL's or students in similar positions to me, or fly a turbulent or microlight.
In about 6 months or so, I hope to be able to afford a share in a cheap 4 seater. Or perhaps I could find work as a barrister and buy my own! Then it will be much easier for me to take my friends flying for free.
Until I have saved the money for my share in a plane, I will continue to fix my friends cars and computers and take them flying on a cost sharing basis. I'll let you know in 6 months time if I still have any friends.
I ASK my friends if THEY WOULD LIKE to come flying with me. I make it clear that WOULD THEY MIND paying an equal share of the cost of the aircraft. I am not TELLING them to come fly with me! When asked, they can reply "sorry, I cant afford it", or, "sure, lets go", usually its the latter. Surely there is no wrong in this???
Now that I have had my licence for several months, I am finding an increasing number or friends and colleagues are approaching me to take them flying. This would indicate that the majority of those who have flown with me appreciated their flight/s, and not objected to sharing the costs.
I think those who can afford to own/rent a 4 seater aircraft without cost sharing each flight are very fortunate. Unfortunately, this is not the case for me, but I certainly do NOT see this as a reason why I should be excluded from flying as PhilD, you suggest. Thats elitism. If necessary I can share costs with other PPL's or students in similar positions to me, or fly a turbulent or microlight.
In about 6 months or so, I hope to be able to afford a share in a cheap 4 seater. Or perhaps I could find work as a barrister and buy my own! Then it will be much easier for me to take my friends flying for free.
Until I have saved the money for my share in a plane, I will continue to fix my friends cars and computers and take them flying on a cost sharing basis. I'll let you know in 6 months time if I still have any friends.
Not so N, but still FG
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Calm down, mumraa, nobody is saying that you can't ask your friends to pay a legal cost-share in order to fly with you. Please have a look back at what PhilD, rustle, I and a few others actually said. Some of us, as a matter of personal taste, find the idea of asking friends to pay for rides in our crates a little, well, tacky, but that isn't the main issue. What underlies the cooking and sportscar-driving digs directed lightheartedly towards you is the idea that none of us ought to have an expectation that others ought to help us to pay for our flying, whether it be recreational or career-oriented. If someone does not want to pay, is that really something worth complaining about here on pprune, as though that person had broken some rule of friendship or of flying?
I must confess to being surprised that this subject has run to three pages, but I suppose that I must accept some share of the blame for that, so I shall sign off now, and retire to the customary bath of Dom Perignon in which we elitists like to relax whilst leafing through the latest brochure from some outfit offering to gold-plate our aircraft (hey, it ******s up the weight and balance, but it sure looks good when you're parked up outside the airfield bar).
I must confess to being surprised that this subject has run to three pages, but I suppose that I must accept some share of the blame for that, so I shall sign off now, and retire to the customary bath of Dom Perignon in which we elitists like to relax whilst leafing through the latest brochure from some outfit offering to gold-plate our aircraft (hey, it ******s up the weight and balance, but it sure looks good when you're parked up outside the airfield bar).
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Well said Mumraaa. At the end of the day if both of you know where you stand from the begining, and no pressure is put on anyone, then everything is ok.
I also agree with you about the elitism. People who have said you sould give up because you don't have enough money to take your friends flying for free, have more money than consideration.
I suspect without cost sharing, there would be a lot less GA flying done, and that would affect all of us, even those who have money to burn!!
Some of the elitism comments made here telling you to get out of GA have really annoyed me
I also agree with you about the elitism. People who have said you sould give up because you don't have enough money to take your friends flying for free, have more money than consideration.
I suspect without cost sharing, there would be a lot less GA flying done, and that would affect all of us, even those who have money to burn!!
Some of the elitism comments made here telling you to get out of GA have really annoyed me
