A night I will never forget!! PLease read
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 262
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From: UK.
It does'nt matter what qualifications he has, with an attitude like that he might as well not have any. Ask around and go somewhere else where your custom is wanted,you don't have to fly with morons with attitude.
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 169
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From: Reading, Berkshire
Try looking at it in purely financial terms.
GA isn't a cheap hobby, and every pound you can put together gives you flying time. Every hour at a rotten club, time with a poor instructor and let's face it, extended time on the ground, provides a leak to your hard earned flying cash through relearning and confidence rebuilding.
So, get flying again so you don't waste more money on relearning and re-establishing confidence, and pay that little bit more at a quality club, learn more quickly and get more enjoyable flying for your money.
GA isn't a cheap hobby, and every pound you can put together gives you flying time. Every hour at a rotten club, time with a poor instructor and let's face it, extended time on the ground, provides a leak to your hard earned flying cash through relearning and confidence rebuilding.
So, get flying again so you don't waste more money on relearning and re-establishing confidence, and pay that little bit more at a quality club, learn more quickly and get more enjoyable flying for your money.
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 160
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From: Moe's Tavern, Springfield
PPRuNer2003
Well everyone above has said it all very well. Just another voice from me to add to the wave of support you are getting.....walk away, but worth writing a letter to the club explaining why you left. Then in the memory bin and no further action.
IMHO probably best not to post any indication implicit or explicit as to the identity of the club on the forum pages since whilst your anonymity is assured Danny's and PPRuNe isn't and, although I am sure no action would be taken, there is the outside possibility that a case could be mounted against PPRuNe for not taking action when a user of the site posted some statements etc etc.
Don't everyone jump on me saying that this is not possible etc etc etc, even if it a weak case, best not to go there; don't let them occupy any more valuable life minutes.
I wouldn't mind knowing though because I am nosey but private e-mail address might be a better vehicle.
Regards
Barney
P.S. Also mjbow2 gets my vote, don't stop flying
Well everyone above has said it all very well. Just another voice from me to add to the wave of support you are getting.....walk away, but worth writing a letter to the club explaining why you left. Then in the memory bin and no further action.
IMHO probably best not to post any indication implicit or explicit as to the identity of the club on the forum pages since whilst your anonymity is assured Danny's and PPRuNe isn't and, although I am sure no action would be taken, there is the outside possibility that a case could be mounted against PPRuNe for not taking action when a user of the site posted some statements etc etc.
Don't everyone jump on me saying that this is not possible etc etc etc, even if it a weak case, best not to go there; don't let them occupy any more valuable life minutes.
I wouldn't mind knowing though because I am nosey but private e-mail address might be a better vehicle.
Regards
Barney
P.S. Also mjbow2 gets my vote, don't stop flying
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,085
Likes: 0
From: Canada
I am not an instructor, and I have little patience with know-alls who look down on pilots because they are "only" PPLs or lowtimers.
However, in reading the original post I wonder whether anything so terrible happened here. It sounds like the instructor became alarmed as the aircraft began drifting off the runway, and took prompt action to correct what he perceived as a potentially dangerous situation. Certainly his language was unfortunate, but who among us has not said something stupid from time to time.
I do not mean to excuse the instructor's language, or his apparent reluctance to be flying that night (after all, he was being paid), but it doesn't sound to me that he did anything that was all that dreadful. After all, he was flying with a novice pilot that he didn't know, and as pilot-in-command he retained the right to take the controls whenever in doubt.
At the risk of 'blaming the victim', I'd suggest that the proper course in this scenario would have been to cease the checkout flight and have a polite but firm chat with the instructor. Only if that failed to result in a better environment would I abandon the club for greener pastures.
ppruner2003, sounds like you may need to develop a somewhat thicker skin, and a more assertive attitude (I agree with everyone who says that it doesn't matter what the instructor's qualications may be). It is possible to be assertive without being aggressive.
MLS-12D
P.S. I concede fully that I wasn't there, and I don't know the personalities involved or the club's culture. I could be all wrong, but my post is just based upon the limited information supplied in ppruner2003's original post.
However, in reading the original post I wonder whether anything so terrible happened here. It sounds like the instructor became alarmed as the aircraft began drifting off the runway, and took prompt action to correct what he perceived as a potentially dangerous situation. Certainly his language was unfortunate, but who among us has not said something stupid from time to time.
I do not mean to excuse the instructor's language, or his apparent reluctance to be flying that night (after all, he was being paid), but it doesn't sound to me that he did anything that was all that dreadful. After all, he was flying with a novice pilot that he didn't know, and as pilot-in-command he retained the right to take the controls whenever in doubt.
At the risk of 'blaming the victim', I'd suggest that the proper course in this scenario would have been to cease the checkout flight and have a polite but firm chat with the instructor. Only if that failed to result in a better environment would I abandon the club for greener pastures.
ppruner2003, sounds like you may need to develop a somewhat thicker skin, and a more assertive attitude (I agree with everyone who says that it doesn't matter what the instructor's qualications may be). It is possible to be assertive without being aggressive.
MLS-12D
P.S. I concede fully that I wasn't there, and I don't know the personalities involved or the club's culture. I could be all wrong, but my post is just based upon the limited information supplied in ppruner2003's original post.
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 1,167
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From: Location: Location:
Indeed - vote with your feet
I instruct. What the guy did was unforgiveable, instructing is a confidence building exercise.
Sometimes instructing can be very hard work, there are days when you dont want to be there - just like any job. People say "well go do something else then " but its never that straightforward.
Im glad somebody above made the distinction about some instructors not necessarily coming across all nice nicey all the time. Instructors can be blunt and if you do have an instructor who is being blunt then sometimes (and I know this might sound wierd) you should consider taking it as a compliment.
Sometimes blunt instructors are being that way because there is a great pilot who we know is lurking in there - desperate to get out - and defeat keeps getting snatched from the jaws of victory. This person is the more frustrating student than the 25 hour student who hasn't gone solo!
Leave now - name the Airfield if not the club and dont let some numpty put you off a career in aviation.
I instruct. What the guy did was unforgiveable, instructing is a confidence building exercise.
Sometimes instructing can be very hard work, there are days when you dont want to be there - just like any job. People say "well go do something else then " but its never that straightforward.
Im glad somebody above made the distinction about some instructors not necessarily coming across all nice nicey all the time. Instructors can be blunt and if you do have an instructor who is being blunt then sometimes (and I know this might sound wierd) you should consider taking it as a compliment.
Sometimes blunt instructors are being that way because there is a great pilot who we know is lurking in there - desperate to get out - and defeat keeps getting snatched from the jaws of victory. This person is the more frustrating student than the 25 hour student who hasn't gone solo!
Leave now - name the Airfield if not the club and dont let some numpty put you off a career in aviation.
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 0
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From: Surrey, UK.
Jeez, glad they banned hanging in this country some time ago.
One post and the school's crap and the instructor's a bastard.
If you had read this in the papers you would have been all up-in-arms about it.
Unbe-'ken-lievable
One post and the school's crap and the instructor's a bastard.
If you had read this in the papers you would have been all up-in-arms about it.
Unbe-'ken-lievable
)
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 263
Likes: 0
From: UK
PPRUNER 2003
Been there done it got the 'T' sh**t. Don't stay walk away, even don't tell them why, just forget about them. Go where you are wanted and where people want to help you to become better. Don't let one idiot destroy you.
Been there done it got the 'T' sh**t. Don't stay walk away, even don't tell them why, just forget about them. Go where you are wanted and where people want to help you to become better. Don't let one idiot destroy you.
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,795
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From: New South Wales
Whilst your unknown to everyone, why not disclose the name of the club?
Personally, if I ran this forum I'd delete all potentially libellous posts and warn off the poster. Too much hassle otherwise. It's different in the US, but in the UK libel is a real issue, even on the Internet and especially in such an influential forum such as this.
QDM
Guest
Posts: n/a
Once again thank you to everyone for all your posts. I am at work at the moment and so will have to be fairly quick. the message coming out here is clear. LEAVE. I am not going to 'out' the club nor the name of the instructor or the airfield (as this is only one club at the airfield - nice try though). I do not want any trouble for myself, pprune or the club. There are a few decent people there after all, but its the atmosphere as a whole, which I do not like. I have to agree with Rustle, there are a few nice people there, so the club is not crap, perhaps just not managed by the right people. MLS-12D, perhaps you are right, I need a tougher skin. I do not mind criticism, as long as it is constructive and he certainly was not that.
I cannot believe all the posts I have had on this. Keep them coming.
I am determined to become an airline pilot and am currently in the selection process for CTC (re wannabe forum). Giving it the best damn shot I have give anything in my life.
Cheers to you all
M
I cannot believe all the posts I have had on this. Keep them coming.
I am determined to become an airline pilot and am currently in the selection process for CTC (re wannabe forum). Giving it the best damn shot I have give anything in my life.
Cheers to you all
M
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 292
Likes: 3
From: Ready to Depart
One of the biggest regrets of my flying career was not having the balls to report a serious 'cross cockpit gradient' that existed between myself and an instructor.
[EDITED: If you haven't read it by now, too late... this was for PPruner2003's benefit. The content of this text made myself and the other party identifable by our mutual aquainances - so it is time to hide again]
Approach the CFI or Boss and explain the situation and/or write a letter. It doesn't have to be written in terms that the chap will lose his job, but you should say that you feel uncomfortable with that particular instructor. You can separately explain that you have been unimpressed with the club as a whole...
[EDITED: If you haven't read it by now, too late... this was for PPruner2003's benefit. The content of this text made myself and the other party identifable by our mutual aquainances - so it is time to hide again
]Approach the CFI or Boss and explain the situation and/or write a letter. It doesn't have to be written in terms that the chap will lose his job, but you should say that you feel uncomfortable with that particular instructor. You can separately explain that you have been unimpressed with the club as a whole...
Last edited by Dusty_B; 28th January 2003 at 16:37.
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,085
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From: Canada
ppruner2003,
Good for you; you have taken my criticism in the constructive sense that it was intended, so I am perfectly willing to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that the instructor's remarks were way over the top.
Keep your chin up!
MLS-12D
Good for you; you have taken my criticism in the constructive sense that it was intended, so I am perfectly willing to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that the instructor's remarks were way over the top.
Keep your chin up!
MLS-12D
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 231
Likes: 0
From: London UK
As someone with experience as an instructor and in both seats of an airliner I feel that I can comment on the phenomenon you describe:
Your instructor - quite simply - lacks the confidence in his own abilities to be a good instructor. He was 'frightened' not because you attempt at landing was particularly bad but because it came very close to what he understood to be the edges of his personal envelope.
Sadly, if he is incapable of dealing with what seems like a very mild error then he lacks the skills to teach.
You must make mistakes in order to learn; he must allow those mistakes to develop to a point where some teaching value is obvious; he must be able to recover the situation in a way which allows you to move forwards in your learing process.
This lack of confidence is prevalent throughout 'professional aviation' - bear this in mind and find yourself a good instructor (someone committed to EDUCATING you).
Please continue enjoying flying - good luck!
Your instructor - quite simply - lacks the confidence in his own abilities to be a good instructor. He was 'frightened' not because you attempt at landing was particularly bad but because it came very close to what he understood to be the edges of his personal envelope.
Sadly, if he is incapable of dealing with what seems like a very mild error then he lacks the skills to teach.
You must make mistakes in order to learn; he must allow those mistakes to develop to a point where some teaching value is obvious; he must be able to recover the situation in a way which allows you to move forwards in your learing process.
This lack of confidence is prevalent throughout 'professional aviation' - bear this in mind and find yourself a good instructor (someone committed to EDUCATING you).
Please continue enjoying flying - good luck!
Guest
Posts: n/a
Cheers MLS-12D. I am pretty sure which flying club I have decided on, now that I am going to leave at the end of March. I visited this flying club when, as well as the one I am a member of at the moment, and they seemed very welcoming and friendly. Plus they have a very big unused (well excpet for the firemen) 747 beside the club, which is fairly interesting. Might give some of you a clue to where I am
Anyway thanks for the constructive advice. I am eager to get up flying again, especially with a new instructor. I have thought about the letter to the CFI and then thought about something quite interesting. If I was leaving the club so soon after joining, would it not be the responsibility of the CFI to find out why I am not renewing my membership? I know if I was the CFI and was interested in maintaining members at the club, then I would want to know.
All of your posts are very individual to yourselves, but all display the same key message to find somewhere else.
I do find it a shame that this does seem to be a regular occurence! I think people should start to think of themselves as a consumer more than anything else. At the end of the day, we are paying the money to the flying club.
Anyway cheers for now
M
Anyway thanks for the constructive advice. I am eager to get up flying again, especially with a new instructor. I have thought about the letter to the CFI and then thought about something quite interesting. If I was leaving the club so soon after joining, would it not be the responsibility of the CFI to find out why I am not renewing my membership? I know if I was the CFI and was interested in maintaining members at the club, then I would want to know.
All of your posts are very individual to yourselves, but all display the same key message to find somewhere else.
I do find it a shame that this does seem to be a regular occurence! I think people should start to think of themselves as a consumer more than anything else. At the end of the day, we are paying the money to the flying club.
Anyway cheers for now
M
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,189
Likes: 0
From: Earth
Surely the answer is simple....
If you are REALLY annoyed at the whole situation why not just wait for a spell of really good wx before a serious low sets in, hire the aircraft for four hours, fly it at least 300 miles away, park up, phone the club and tell them you've lost your bottle at the controls and get a train home.
I know somone who did it for genuine reasons and it gave a nightmare to the club to get it home a few days later after the wx had cleared.
If you are REALLY annoyed at the whole situation why not just wait for a spell of really good wx before a serious low sets in, hire the aircraft for four hours, fly it at least 300 miles away, park up, phone the club and tell them you've lost your bottle at the controls and get a train home.
I know somone who did it for genuine reasons and it gave a nightmare to the club to get it home a few days later after the wx had cleared.
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 605
Likes: 0
From: Midlands
Not sure about this...
Hi PPruner2003,
Hmmmmm.
I am not sure about this.
You seem really keen not to disclose the name of the club and have even changed your name. Are you fearful that somebody might post something that hurts your feelings?
Have you given us the full facts?
Is it possible - just possible - that you might have screwed up and this guy did you - and the aircraft owner(!) a favour?
It strikes me that any landing scary enough to cause an instructor to grab the stick would have prompted the instructor in the debrief to recommend some further training?
Did he do this? If not - what reasons exactly did he give?
He hadn't flown with you before(?) so didn't know how competent you were. He saw a departure, you knew you were able to sort it..he isn't telepathic - he is there to conduct a safe flying lesson.
As a (long-since) lapsed AFI I flew with some pretty good pilots who sometimes had a bad day. We are all human.
Heres another suggestion, from an old f@rty with 27 years flying experience -
The club is quite convenient to you - you like some (and the word some gives a little indication of your personality here?) of the people. You were presumably attracted to the club in the first place for reasons sufficent enough to join.
Why not tackle this full on instead of sulking about it and gathering allies on this thread by maybe (I say maybe??) not presenting the full facts.
Simply tackle the instructor face-on and say - 'I clearly screwed up the other night. My problem is - I wasn't aware of a problem until you decided to take control. Thinking about it afterwards, I still don't think my flying warranted your grabbing the stick. Can we do some crosswind circuits? My confidence has suffered through this, I need to sort it in my own mind.'
In my experience, the humble approach will pay dividends. He may turn out to be your best mate.
I have heard many stories about grabbing the stick. I have done it myself.
A very very good mate of mine - highly competent pilot - was about to screw up a landing a couple of years ago. In my opinion - there was a high risk of a runway departure/ collision with the edge markers. I said to him calmly - 'I have', sorted it and handed it back to him in seconds.
What did he do when we taxied in?
I tell you what he didn't do. He didn't get the sulks and wasn't offended. He thanked me for it. His wife and kids in the back - no headsets were being worn by them) knew nothing about it.
Conversely, a good mate of mine - an ATCO not far from me and a really competent, current pilot - grabbed the stick from a private owner in the certainty that the approach into his short strip was about to result in an accident. This was compounded by the fact that the guy in question is getting on a bit and had just recovered from a serious illness so wasn't current and wasn't - on that day - on the case.
What happened then? A wrestling match in the cockpit and a major upset on the ground - followed by a few uneasy weeks after that.
Having the stick grabbed from you can be upsetting.
However - 'you are as good as you are on the day'.
Search your soul here - ask youself some questions - take a deep breath and get back to your club with a fresh approach.
Make every effort to put this behind you.
You will fly better as a consequence.
The other option is to continue to mither about it - cause a bad atmosphere in the club and cause yourself inconvenience if you do decide to move on.
Your call.
HP
Hmmmmm.
I am not sure about this.
You seem really keen not to disclose the name of the club and have even changed your name. Are you fearful that somebody might post something that hurts your feelings?
Have you given us the full facts?
Is it possible - just possible - that you might have screwed up and this guy did you - and the aircraft owner(!) a favour?
It strikes me that any landing scary enough to cause an instructor to grab the stick would have prompted the instructor in the debrief to recommend some further training?
Did he do this? If not - what reasons exactly did he give?
He hadn't flown with you before(?) so didn't know how competent you were. He saw a departure, you knew you were able to sort it..he isn't telepathic - he is there to conduct a safe flying lesson.
As a (long-since) lapsed AFI I flew with some pretty good pilots who sometimes had a bad day. We are all human.
Heres another suggestion, from an old f@rty with 27 years flying experience -
The club is quite convenient to you - you like some (and the word some gives a little indication of your personality here?) of the people. You were presumably attracted to the club in the first place for reasons sufficent enough to join.
Why not tackle this full on instead of sulking about it and gathering allies on this thread by maybe (I say maybe??) not presenting the full facts.
Simply tackle the instructor face-on and say - 'I clearly screwed up the other night. My problem is - I wasn't aware of a problem until you decided to take control. Thinking about it afterwards, I still don't think my flying warranted your grabbing the stick. Can we do some crosswind circuits? My confidence has suffered through this, I need to sort it in my own mind.'
In my experience, the humble approach will pay dividends. He may turn out to be your best mate.
I have heard many stories about grabbing the stick. I have done it myself.
A very very good mate of mine - highly competent pilot - was about to screw up a landing a couple of years ago. In my opinion - there was a high risk of a runway departure/ collision with the edge markers. I said to him calmly - 'I have', sorted it and handed it back to him in seconds.
What did he do when we taxied in?
I tell you what he didn't do. He didn't get the sulks and wasn't offended. He thanked me for it. His wife and kids in the back - no headsets were being worn by them) knew nothing about it.
Conversely, a good mate of mine - an ATCO not far from me and a really competent, current pilot - grabbed the stick from a private owner in the certainty that the approach into his short strip was about to result in an accident. This was compounded by the fact that the guy in question is getting on a bit and had just recovered from a serious illness so wasn't current and wasn't - on that day - on the case.
What happened then? A wrestling match in the cockpit and a major upset on the ground - followed by a few uneasy weeks after that.
Having the stick grabbed from you can be upsetting.
However - 'you are as good as you are on the day'.
Search your soul here - ask youself some questions - take a deep breath and get back to your club with a fresh approach.
Make every effort to put this behind you.
You will fly better as a consequence.
The other option is to continue to mither about it - cause a bad atmosphere in the club and cause yourself inconvenience if you do decide to move on.
Your call.
HP
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 113
Likes: 0
From: UK
I'm not sure that you should always judge on first impressions. It may be that there are other instructors within the club that you can establish a good relationship. You mention that you have a friend in the club and that imply that there is general disatisfaction. You could talk to your friend and see if there is anything that can be done to improve the club. If it is your local club then it might be worth trying to see if you and your friend can imoprove matters. Depending upon whether the flying scholl is run on a proprietorial basis, or by committee you should consider making your feelings known to either the owner, or the chairman. It has to be in their interests to address your concerns, if they want a successful club.
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 69
Likes: 0
From: Spain
A night etc
ppruner 2003
Sorry to hear your all to familiar tale. As most of the respondents advise,go elswhere.
Same thing happened to me in the late 1960's. 18000hrs later I am still in there. It's probably too late to say who it was, but they are still out there believing that they are doing you a favour by taking your money and b-------g you about.
Don't let it spoil your fun, change club.
Rgds. FPG.
Sorry to hear your all to familiar tale. As most of the respondents advise,go elswhere.
Same thing happened to me in the late 1960's. 18000hrs later I am still in there. It's probably too late to say who it was, but they are still out there believing that they are doing you a favour by taking your money and b-------g you about.
Don't let it spoil your fun, change club.
Rgds. FPG.