A night I will never forget!! PLease read
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A night I will never forget!! PLease read
Hi Guys and Gals,
This is not my first post on here, but have changed my username so as to avoid detection
The reason I am writing this post is to ask for a piece of advice. There has been something churning around inside my head for a couple of months now and half thought of posting a message on here to see what you all thought.
Anyway, I recently joined a new flying club after gaining my PPL. First impressions of the club were not good. I phoned them to see if it were possible to have a visit one day, and was told I could if I wanted to and “maybe there would be someone in…” – a little strange I thought – anyway it was more the attitude in his voice, like he could not care less whether I came down or not.
So I drove down to the flying club and there was no one about, so I waited for a while until eventually I saw one of their a/c coming down and parking. The instructor walked over and I greeted him and said I was interested in joining. He was not particularly interested either (which I later find out is more down to his personality rather than sheer rudeness!).
I left the flying club on a rather disappointing note. However, I gave it consideration and thought well, it is cheaper than the other and closer too. So I joined and paid the membership fee.
First person I flew with, for my checkout (PA38) was a CAA examiner, who seemed a little intimidating at first, but after a couple of flights, she was very good at pointing out airport procedures etc. I also have a Night Qualification in my license, so I thought it would be a good idea to be checked out on a different a/c, whilst flying at night i.e. kill two birds with one stone. The aircraft was a C172. I flew a brand new 172 a couple of months earlier, for about an hour and a half, and not all me in control, so was still fairly inexperienced with the a/c. Anyway down to the point of this post. I flew with a different instructor this time, as the original was not available.
The day came to go flying in the C172 at night. I was looking forward to it. I did the pre-flight and walk around before he arrived. He then arrived with the attitude like he really did not want to be there. This was confirmed to me later by someone else, so it was not just me. So the flight began and throughout the flight it was criticism after criticism!! “Why do you keep your hand on the throttle?” “Not enough aileron deflection on T/O!” There were more comments than that, but the worst came on landing. Baring in mind, the CAA examiner who I flew with three times before, said I was a very safe and competent pilot! So we came to the landing, my first in the aircraft and ok was fairly bumpy and to my astonishment, he started shouting! I believe his actual words were “What the hell are you doing?” A gust blew the a/c off the center line, but rather than let me compensate, he grabbed the controls and shouted the above. Immediately, my confidence was gone. He said throttle back up and do it again. Out of the remaining four landings, only one was decent. My confidence was shattered that night by one instructor who was in a bad mood and did not want to be doing what he was doing.
I have not flown since that night! And it was more than 8 weeks ago.
I have since spoken to a Training Captain of a large Commercial Airline and he agreed with me, that the instructor was wrong to do what he did.
Rather than help me, he criticized me!
I have since been to the flying club – while he was not there I must add – and again got a very cold reception – not welcoming at all. I do not find the place welcoming. I only feel it is full of big-headed people. I have been careful not to mention names nor places, as I believe it would be inappropriate. What I want to know is.. Would you stay or would you go? And would you speak to someone with regards to this so called flying instructor? This guy apparently has a FATPL and has been instructing for years. So who am I to speak about him? A PPL’r with TT 51 hours!! Should I sit quiet and get over it, or speak to someone about it. I am fairly confident I will not be renewing my membership with them, but any advice from anyone out there would be great.
My confidence has gone and after that night, just one guy made me feel like my whole career path may be the wrong one!
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
M
P.S. I have been very unsure as to whether to post this topic or not. I did, as there might I feel be other people who have had similar experiences to myself.
This is not my first post on here, but have changed my username so as to avoid detection
The reason I am writing this post is to ask for a piece of advice. There has been something churning around inside my head for a couple of months now and half thought of posting a message on here to see what you all thought.
Anyway, I recently joined a new flying club after gaining my PPL. First impressions of the club were not good. I phoned them to see if it were possible to have a visit one day, and was told I could if I wanted to and “maybe there would be someone in…” – a little strange I thought – anyway it was more the attitude in his voice, like he could not care less whether I came down or not.
So I drove down to the flying club and there was no one about, so I waited for a while until eventually I saw one of their a/c coming down and parking. The instructor walked over and I greeted him and said I was interested in joining. He was not particularly interested either (which I later find out is more down to his personality rather than sheer rudeness!).
I left the flying club on a rather disappointing note. However, I gave it consideration and thought well, it is cheaper than the other and closer too. So I joined and paid the membership fee.
First person I flew with, for my checkout (PA38) was a CAA examiner, who seemed a little intimidating at first, but after a couple of flights, she was very good at pointing out airport procedures etc. I also have a Night Qualification in my license, so I thought it would be a good idea to be checked out on a different a/c, whilst flying at night i.e. kill two birds with one stone. The aircraft was a C172. I flew a brand new 172 a couple of months earlier, for about an hour and a half, and not all me in control, so was still fairly inexperienced with the a/c. Anyway down to the point of this post. I flew with a different instructor this time, as the original was not available.
The day came to go flying in the C172 at night. I was looking forward to it. I did the pre-flight and walk around before he arrived. He then arrived with the attitude like he really did not want to be there. This was confirmed to me later by someone else, so it was not just me. So the flight began and throughout the flight it was criticism after criticism!! “Why do you keep your hand on the throttle?” “Not enough aileron deflection on T/O!” There were more comments than that, but the worst came on landing. Baring in mind, the CAA examiner who I flew with three times before, said I was a very safe and competent pilot! So we came to the landing, my first in the aircraft and ok was fairly bumpy and to my astonishment, he started shouting! I believe his actual words were “What the hell are you doing?” A gust blew the a/c off the center line, but rather than let me compensate, he grabbed the controls and shouted the above. Immediately, my confidence was gone. He said throttle back up and do it again. Out of the remaining four landings, only one was decent. My confidence was shattered that night by one instructor who was in a bad mood and did not want to be doing what he was doing.
I have not flown since that night! And it was more than 8 weeks ago.
I have since spoken to a Training Captain of a large Commercial Airline and he agreed with me, that the instructor was wrong to do what he did.
Rather than help me, he criticized me!
I have since been to the flying club – while he was not there I must add – and again got a very cold reception – not welcoming at all. I do not find the place welcoming. I only feel it is full of big-headed people. I have been careful not to mention names nor places, as I believe it would be inappropriate. What I want to know is.. Would you stay or would you go? And would you speak to someone with regards to this so called flying instructor? This guy apparently has a FATPL and has been instructing for years. So who am I to speak about him? A PPL’r with TT 51 hours!! Should I sit quiet and get over it, or speak to someone about it. I am fairly confident I will not be renewing my membership with them, but any advice from anyone out there would be great.
My confidence has gone and after that night, just one guy made me feel like my whole career path may be the wrong one!
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
M
P.S. I have been very unsure as to whether to post this topic or not. I did, as there might I feel be other people who have had similar experiences to myself.
Join Date: Jun 2002
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Some people are gits, doesn't matter how many hours they have.
For heaven's sake, don't ruminate on it. Just go somewhere else, get your confidence back and then let these people fade from your mind. It's not worth getting embroiled in a big hoo-ha with claim and counter-claim. If they're that bad they'll go out of business. Job done.
QDM
For heaven's sake, don't ruminate on it. Just go somewhere else, get your confidence back and then let these people fade from your mind. It's not worth getting embroiled in a big hoo-ha with claim and counter-claim. If they're that bad they'll go out of business. Job done.
QDM
I don't see anything actually dangerous or illegal here, just unpleasant and unprofessional. So reporting them to anybody I'm not sure will help much.
I'd walk away and leave them to it - go fly with somebody who cares both about good manners and professionalism. If the place was that quiet, then the odds are everybody else has already done so - market pressures will then either make them buck-up or close down.
Having said that, talking along the lines of "you blithering idiot why did you do that" is quite common amongst aviation professionals and I shouldn't let that in itself trouble you. Undesirable though this attitude may be, most full-timers would probably have simply carried on through that sort of feedback - there is much fault in not recognising you as a newly qualified pilot and treating you accordingly.
G
I'd walk away and leave them to it - go fly with somebody who cares both about good manners and professionalism. If the place was that quiet, then the odds are everybody else has already done so - market pressures will then either make them buck-up or close down.
Having said that, talking along the lines of "you blithering idiot why did you do that" is quite common amongst aviation professionals and I shouldn't let that in itself trouble you. Undesirable though this attitude may be, most full-timers would probably have simply carried on through that sort of feedback - there is much fault in not recognising you as a newly qualified pilot and treating you accordingly.
G
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I agree with QDM x 3. Walk away!
However before you do publish a lat + long, or a bearing and distance, from a nearby beacon so that the spotlight can be brought to bear to see, whether or not, there is a history at this particular club of poor PR.
However before you do publish a lat + long, or a bearing and distance, from a nearby beacon so that the spotlight can be brought to bear to see, whether or not, there is a history at this particular club of poor PR.
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Hobbies are meant to be fun. Tell them to f*&^%&* off and go somewhere more friendly - there are loads out there. Maybe you have found out why they are cheaper than other clubs.
You could, for vengence, go up with the git instructor again and just at the point of flare stuff the nose down hard and take out the front of the a/c, and apologise " oh I thought you always took over at that point,, of course if you had been any good as an instructor you would have been ready for that!
"
You could, for vengence, go up with the git instructor again and just at the point of flare stuff the nose down hard and take out the front of the a/c, and apologise " oh I thought you always took over at that point,, of course if you had been any good as an instructor you would have been ready for that!
"
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Far too many new PPLs give up flying in the first few years, often due to bad experiences such as this. DON'T BE THE NEXT ONE .
Never go back to that rotten club again.
Look around for a good club - (I travelled 45 miles for my training even though there were much nearer options) You will get that 'warm' feeling when you find the right one.
Get flying ASAP or you will lose your confidence.
Consider joining a group - A good one can be marvellous and cheap too.
You are the holder of a JAR PPL - the most difficult and comprehensive private licence ever - you CAN Fly!
Kingy
Never go back to that rotten club again.
Look around for a good club - (I travelled 45 miles for my training even though there were much nearer options) You will get that 'warm' feeling when you find the right one.
Get flying ASAP or you will lose your confidence.
Consider joining a group - A good one can be marvellous and cheap too.
You are the holder of a JAR PPL - the most difficult and comprehensive private licence ever - you CAN Fly!
Kingy
High Flying Bird
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Why are you even considering staying? It can't be to save money, as flying with people like that means more hours in the long run.
When you leave, why not write a polite, carefully-worded letter to the CFI. Don't be rude, just make it short and to the point. Consider getting someone to read it through before you send it! If other people have had problems there and no-one says anything, nothing will change.
When you leave, why not write a polite, carefully-worded letter to the CFI. Don't be rude, just make it short and to the point. Consider getting someone to read it through before you send it! If other people have had problems there and no-one says anything, nothing will change.
Supercharged PPRuNer
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Walk away, and find a club (and people) you are happy with. From the outset your instincts told you this wasn’t a good place, and cheap rates are pretty irrelevant if everything else is wrong. There are plenty enough good clubs around – you should never have to pay for poor or shoddy service.
And as for an instructor shouting at his student – how many times does it need saying? Berating and belittling students or losing one’s temper has absolutely no place in the cockpit. At best, it will leave the student flustered and unlikely to gain anything from the rest of the flight - worse, it could destroy someone’s confidence and put them off flying altogether – worst of all, it could lead them to make a fatal error.
I’ve had in-flight bo11ockings twice - once on the RT from an extremely patronising ATCO (a complete one off, in my experience) and once from an instructor who seemed prone to frustration when I struggled with tasks which must have seemed simple to him. Both incidents were in the later stages of PPL training, and I shrugged them off, chalking them up to experience. I can well imagine the effect on me though, if my hours or self-confidence had been lower.
And that might tell a story - why do you think he’s still instructing, and not sitting in a right hand seat of an airliner? Quite possibly because that kind of attitude is exposed by airlines through interview and psychometric testing - and they don't want to fly with him either.
And as for an instructor shouting at his student – how many times does it need saying? Berating and belittling students or losing one’s temper has absolutely no place in the cockpit. At best, it will leave the student flustered and unlikely to gain anything from the rest of the flight - worse, it could destroy someone’s confidence and put them off flying altogether – worst of all, it could lead them to make a fatal error.
I’ve had in-flight bo11ockings twice - once on the RT from an extremely patronising ATCO (a complete one off, in my experience) and once from an instructor who seemed prone to frustration when I struggled with tasks which must have seemed simple to him. Both incidents were in the later stages of PPL training, and I shrugged them off, chalking them up to experience. I can well imagine the effect on me though, if my hours or self-confidence had been lower.
This guy apparently has a FATPL and has been instructing for years.
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Thanks to all that have replied to my post so far. The message coming out seems clear - move on. I am sorry Bodie, but as much as I would like to, I would not reveal the name of the club, partly due to the fact that I am sure there are some nice people there, someone whom I know well is a member of the club. However, I do get the distinct impression that there are a few club issues between a lot of members, due to the fact that they recently had a commitee meeting (I was not there, due to working issues) and I don't think the meeting went well at all.
Aerbabe I might just do that thanks. But I will be precise and to the point. Like I said, in my original post, who am I to stand upto someone with a FATPL? But then on the other hand, if my Captain does something to turn my head left in the future, then yes it is necessary to say something. I don't believe what he did was dangerous, but what I feel is that for a split second, from the point he shouted to the point he grabbed the controls off me, that aircraft was not being controlled!! Quite scary when you think about it.
I have learnt a valuable lesson from this - always go on first impressions! Like G-SXTY said, my instincts told me it was not a good place.
I have a fair idea of who I will join when my membership runs out in the next couple of months. It is a flying club,a bit further away, but when I visited them orginally, they were welcoming, just a bit dearer! But I can handle that.
Thanks again for the posts and keep them coming, I am suprised at how many so soon.
I will update you
M
Aerbabe I might just do that thanks. But I will be precise and to the point. Like I said, in my original post, who am I to stand upto someone with a FATPL? But then on the other hand, if my Captain does something to turn my head left in the future, then yes it is necessary to say something. I don't believe what he did was dangerous, but what I feel is that for a split second, from the point he shouted to the point he grabbed the controls off me, that aircraft was not being controlled!! Quite scary when you think about it.
I have learnt a valuable lesson from this - always go on first impressions! Like G-SXTY said, my instincts told me it was not a good place.
I have a fair idea of who I will join when my membership runs out in the next couple of months. It is a flying club,a bit further away, but when I visited them orginally, they were welcoming, just a bit dearer! But I can handle that.
Thanks again for the posts and keep them coming, I am suprised at how many so soon.
I will update you
M
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Ppruner2003
Don't take the experience too much to heart - you may have flown a beautiful circuit, lulling the guy into a false sense of security and then scared him a little with the bumpy landing - instructors are human too believe it or not
However, I not excusing what appears to be an inappropriate intervention and if any apology was not forthcoming for this aberation, then I would consider a change of flying club.
!
If you are going to make a career of flying you will be faced with frank feedback from time to time (as in any profession) and if delivered insensitively, this will hurt.
You need to able to be sure that you can handle the dissonance that this brings before handing over a lot of money for flight training.
On balance though, one bumpy landing at 51 hours and a snap from an instructor shouldn't dent your confidence .... it takes most of us a lot more time than this to perfect smooth landings during daylight!
Don't take the experience too much to heart - you may have flown a beautiful circuit, lulling the guy into a false sense of security and then scared him a little with the bumpy landing - instructors are human too believe it or not
However, I not excusing what appears to be an inappropriate intervention and if any apology was not forthcoming for this aberation, then I would consider a change of flying club.
!
just one guy made me feel like my whole career path may be the wrong one!
You need to able to be sure that you can handle the dissonance that this brings before handing over a lot of money for flight training.
On balance though, one bumpy landing at 51 hours and a snap from an instructor shouldn't dent your confidence .... it takes most of us a lot more time than this to perfect smooth landings during daylight!
High Flying Bird
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am I to stand upto someone with a FATPL?
).Just think through anything you might say. Don't end up in the wrong by letting yourself get angry or upset. If you're going to talk to him, think of the possible replies he may have, and have a counter argument ready. However, I still think you should go to the CFI, AND the committee. Who knows, maybe they've had a complaint previously, but are unwilling to act on it based on one person's experiences. What do you have to lose?
Resident Brewer
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I'd second the suggestion to write a carefully worded letter to the management of the club. I'm a committee member for my club, and I'd want to know if an instructor had treated a club member in this way.
As for the alphabet soup issue. It doesn't matter what qualifications the instructor has, you still have the right to express an opinion on their teaching ability and to have it politely heard and genuinely taken into account. Good teachers seek feedback from their students, take it onboard, and act on it. Bad ones don't.
As for the alphabet soup issue. It doesn't matter what qualifications the instructor has, you still have the right to express an opinion on their teaching ability and to have it politely heard and genuinely taken into account. Good teachers seek feedback from their students, take it onboard, and act on it. Bad ones don't.
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when i first started my ppl training, i initially thought the instructor
was rather abrupt...but then soon realised that he was just being
"to the point".....instead of saying "excuse me kind sir , would you please apply full power" (say on touch & go.......ours is one of shortest licenced rwys)..he would let you know in no uncertain terms that he wanted full power.....i quite enjoyed his colourful language at times and he turned out to be a fantastic instructor.
He never made me feel panicky..im sorry to hear your story.......go enjoy your flying somewhere else
was rather abrupt...but then soon realised that he was just being
"to the point".....instead of saying "excuse me kind sir , would you please apply full power" (say on touch & go.......ours is one of shortest licenced rwys)..he would let you know in no uncertain terms that he wanted full power.....i quite enjoyed his colourful language at times and he turned out to be a fantastic instructor.
He never made me feel panicky..im sorry to hear your story.......go enjoy your flying somewhere else
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Just leave! In the future somebody might ask you
" What do you think of flying club X?" and you just tell them what you think! The aviation community is very small and word of mouth spreads very quickly!
" What do you think of flying club X?" and you just tell them what you think! The aviation community is very small and word of mouth spreads very quickly!
Player of Games
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Ppruner2003, you are the customer, paying £100-120/hr
for the use of an instructor and an aeroplane.
At a minimum, you should tell the CFI that you don't like
XXXX's attitude and that you don't want to fly with him
again...if the CFI doesn't respond appropriately or flannels
you then you should walk away from the club and tell
people why.
The instructor is a teacher, they have no right to treat
you in other than a professional fashion.
The major reason we get such $hit service in the UK
is that we are too *nice* to complain and make those
responsible aware that they are losing business because
of the attitude of their staff.
-- Andrew
for the use of an instructor and an aeroplane.
At a minimum, you should tell the CFI that you don't like
XXXX's attitude and that you don't want to fly with him
again...if the CFI doesn't respond appropriately or flannels
you then you should walk away from the club and tell
people why.
The instructor is a teacher, they have no right to treat
you in other than a professional fashion.
The major reason we get such $hit service in the UK
is that we are too *nice* to complain and make those
responsible aware that they are losing business because
of the attitude of their staff.
-- Andrew
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2003.....
I am sorry you had to experience this kind of treatment. It is sad that time and time again these things happen in the GA flight training industry and the only person that suffers for it is the student (here-in called the 'consumer').
Kingy is right! You are no lower on the totum pole the Mr. ATPLF. The UK PPl is about the hardest in the world to get and you should be proud that youre a pilot who worked hard and paid a lot of money for the privilage.
I am an airline pilot who is still heavily involved in the GA training field. My business uses sims to give airline transition training etc. I give talks at airshows on how people can'expedite their flight training and get a flying job'. The Single biggest advise that I give EVERYONE, including my own customers (students) is that as the consumer you have the right to demand the best from your instructor. If the product your getting is substandard then you MUST tell him/her. If there is not an improvement to your satisfaction, then you have the obligation to take your hard earned money elsewhere.
Please, see youselve as a consumer. Would you stand for such treatment when buying a pair of jeans? Probably not. So why accept it when making, arguably the 2nd largest purchase of your life and possibly the most important purchase?
You, my friend are ten times the 'professional' that Mr.ATPLf is. Your reluctance to bad mouth the school is admirable and says a lot about your character.
The only way to improve the professionalism in the GA flight training industry is to DEMAND higher standards from your instructors and take your money else where when you dont get it.
Do every future student of Mr. ATPLf a favour! write down everything you didnt like about this brief encounter and tell this guy exactly why he doesnt deserve your business. If enough students just demand what you should have.......then he may change his ways if his livelyhood is at stake!
Head up 2003
please dont stop flying, we need guys like you in the sky!
I am sorry you had to experience this kind of treatment. It is sad that time and time again these things happen in the GA flight training industry and the only person that suffers for it is the student (here-in called the 'consumer').
Kingy is right! You are no lower on the totum pole the Mr. ATPLF. The UK PPl is about the hardest in the world to get and you should be proud that youre a pilot who worked hard and paid a lot of money for the privilage.
I am an airline pilot who is still heavily involved in the GA training field. My business uses sims to give airline transition training etc. I give talks at airshows on how people can'expedite their flight training and get a flying job'. The Single biggest advise that I give EVERYONE, including my own customers (students) is that as the consumer you have the right to demand the best from your instructor. If the product your getting is substandard then you MUST tell him/her. If there is not an improvement to your satisfaction, then you have the obligation to take your hard earned money elsewhere.
Please, see youselve as a consumer. Would you stand for such treatment when buying a pair of jeans? Probably not. So why accept it when making, arguably the 2nd largest purchase of your life and possibly the most important purchase?
You, my friend are ten times the 'professional' that Mr.ATPLf is. Your reluctance to bad mouth the school is admirable and says a lot about your character.
The only way to improve the professionalism in the GA flight training industry is to DEMAND higher standards from your instructors and take your money else where when you dont get it.
Do every future student of Mr. ATPLf a favour! write down everything you didnt like about this brief encounter and tell this guy exactly why he doesnt deserve your business. If enough students just demand what you should have.......then he may change his ways if his livelyhood is at stake!
Head up 2003
please dont stop flying, we need guys like you in the sky!