Strange G.A. Practices!
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Well FF thanks for all the Gen! Interesting to note that the obvious way to depart 06 is to backtrack - hence to vacate 27, the logical method is ..........to backtrack!
Use the perimeter road
- time before last when I taxied out, a person went careeiring round it in a Range Rover. Not a hazard to me at the time I should point out, however, the history of the place begs the question whether drivers on your Peri track appreciate that vehicles give way to a/c on the manoeuvring area.
(is it publisherd as one?)
Ho Hum?
I take it you do some aerial photography - lucky you. What does your reference to the CAA restrictions imply? Were they not entirely happy with certain practices or is there a published CAP on aerial photographic activities which curtails some past practice?
Auusie - I will catch up with the southern hemisphere scribe later - cheers.
Have a nice day all - and if you are not hangaring your aircraft, make sure you think about any Hoar frost left on your plane and don't be mean with the de-icer............we are definitely into that season in the U.K.
Use the perimeter road
- time before last when I taxied out, a person went careeiring round it in a Range Rover. Not a hazard to me at the time I should point out, however, the history of the place begs the question whether drivers on your Peri track appreciate that vehicles give way to a/c on the manoeuvring area.(is it publisherd as one?)
Ho Hum?
I take it you do some aerial photography - lucky you. What does your reference to the CAA restrictions imply? Were they not entirely happy with certain practices or is there a published CAP on aerial photographic activities which curtails some past practice?
Auusie - I will catch up with the southern hemisphere scribe later - cheers.
Have a nice day all - and if you are not hangaring your aircraft, make sure you think about any Hoar frost left on your plane and don't be mean with the de-icer............we are definitely into that season in the U.K.
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Well AA, that sounded fairly typical - digressing to exiles freighting god knows what in darkest Africa - my old man ended up in a Ugandan holiday camp many moons ago for "legitimately" carrying "sporting rifles" must ask the Gov't what it was all about one day
Question; - Is there a Turbulent or something similar based at EGS!............think it was him
Question; - Is there a Turbulent or something similar based at EGS!............think it was him
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SS
I think there is a (albeit perhaps small) difference between backtracking to depart off 06 and backtracking after landing on 24. At the 'A' hold (close to 24 threshold) you have a clear view of the 06 approach and can check it is clear before nack tracking and have other options open to you (crossing to 'B' or taxi round the peri track). When landing short on 24 you only have the option of continuing ahead to 'C' hold (2/3rds of the way down) or immediate 180 and backtrack. If you believe the approach is clear (as you did) the immediate 180 and back track is the obvious choice but you can be caught out doing this if there is a non radio on approach so it has to be done with caution and you have to be ready to change the decision and contine ahead to 'C'. It is clear therefore that this is not as clearcut as the backtrack to depart 06 option. The description probably isn't as clear as it should be but it is only a minor point anyway.
The peri track option does have the potential danger you describe and I think I referred to this in the earlier post when I mentioned this option (careful not to recommend someone to do this without warning of the dangers in this highly litigative society!). For me I think I would still rather take this chance if the alternative was to have someone determined to land on top of me (which I think you have to agree is less likely in the case of a Range Rover
).
Correct on the photography point. We have a small unpaid volunteer team building an air to air and ground to ground library of aviation / aircraft pictures for an aviation magazine. The aircraft owner / pilot gets a free CD of shots in return for bringing aircraft along and flying for 20 mins or so.
Perhaps I wasn' too clear on the restriction point (and it is only loosely connected with the photography). The restriction is an airfield restriction not a CAA restriction. My role in the photo team is to act as formation pilot of the subject aircraft. I am also in the process of acquiring a Display Authority to display Chipmunk and Tiger Moth and this will include formation fly by. For both purposes I have a requirement to practice formation take offs and these (totally legal) have been banned for members at the airfield (although visitors can still do this). Means I have to go elsewhere to practice this and also means that photo sessions take a little longer as we have to join up out of the circuit.
Finally no Turb at airfield and not aware of a turb or similar in the local vicinity but will keep my eyes open.
Great post - loads of views - I think I have added all I can - SS hopefully see you in happier mood at airfield soon.
I think there is a (albeit perhaps small) difference between backtracking to depart off 06 and backtracking after landing on 24. At the 'A' hold (close to 24 threshold) you have a clear view of the 06 approach and can check it is clear before nack tracking and have other options open to you (crossing to 'B' or taxi round the peri track). When landing short on 24 you only have the option of continuing ahead to 'C' hold (2/3rds of the way down) or immediate 180 and backtrack. If you believe the approach is clear (as you did) the immediate 180 and back track is the obvious choice but you can be caught out doing this if there is a non radio on approach so it has to be done with caution and you have to be ready to change the decision and contine ahead to 'C'. It is clear therefore that this is not as clearcut as the backtrack to depart 06 option. The description probably isn't as clear as it should be but it is only a minor point anyway.
The peri track option does have the potential danger you describe and I think I referred to this in the earlier post when I mentioned this option (careful not to recommend someone to do this without warning of the dangers in this highly litigative society!). For me I think I would still rather take this chance if the alternative was to have someone determined to land on top of me (which I think you have to agree is less likely in the case of a Range Rover
).Correct on the photography point. We have a small unpaid volunteer team building an air to air and ground to ground library of aviation / aircraft pictures for an aviation magazine. The aircraft owner / pilot gets a free CD of shots in return for bringing aircraft along and flying for 20 mins or so.
Perhaps I wasn' too clear on the restriction point (and it is only loosely connected with the photography). The restriction is an airfield restriction not a CAA restriction. My role in the photo team is to act as formation pilot of the subject aircraft. I am also in the process of acquiring a Display Authority to display Chipmunk and Tiger Moth and this will include formation fly by. For both purposes I have a requirement to practice formation take offs and these (totally legal) have been banned for members at the airfield (although visitors can still do this). Means I have to go elsewhere to practice this and also means that photo sessions take a little longer as we have to join up out of the circuit.
Finally no Turb at airfield and not aware of a turb or similar in the local vicinity but will keep my eyes open.
Great post - loads of views - I think I have added all I can - SS hopefully see you in happier mood at airfield soon.
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This has been a very "reasoned" debate" and whilst staggered at the number of "views" and not wishing to push the numbers up, I now have another "scratch my head question" thanks to your latest post FF.
I have absolutely zero time in a Non R/T plane. I have been to airfields with no comms and joined overhead, checked the signal square and carried out published circuit etc.
However, non R/T mixing with the rest of us: surely the same Rules of the Air apply? Plane on runway ahead, non R/T on finals - surely he / she should instigate a Go-Around if perception dictates that say a land after is not going to work?
P.S. FF - you may have gleaned that "SS" is not some contrived paranoid desire to be a "Top Gun", but rather photography based.
Don't know what type of ground to ground pics you are collecting but if I can help..........not into digital yet, but seriously contemplating a Canon D60..........but how many hours will that spend detract from aviating & keep me on the ground
I have absolutely zero time in a Non R/T plane. I have been to airfields with no comms and joined overhead, checked the signal square and carried out published circuit etc.
However, non R/T mixing with the rest of us: surely the same Rules of the Air apply? Plane on runway ahead, non R/T on finals - surely he / she should instigate a Go-Around if perception dictates that say a land after is not going to work?
P.S. FF - you may have gleaned that "SS" is not some contrived paranoid desire to be a "Top Gun", but rather photography based.
Don't know what type of ground to ground pics you are collecting but if I can help..........not into digital yet, but seriously contemplating a Canon D60..........but how many hours will that spend detract from aviating & keep me on the ground
SS,
I'm not an expert but I cannot think of any rule of the air which is dependent on radio, at least in the UK.
In your case, because you had radio, you at least knew what the other party, who was obviously breaking the rules, was planning to do. Even then, you understandably found it difficult to decide what action to take in the short time you had available. At least you were on the ground.
I spent the first four years of my flying life without radio and on several occasions have been faced with others similarly putting me in a difficult situation without any opportunity to clarify what we were doing over the radio.
For example, on my QXC in a DH82, I was happily proceeding downwind at Shoreham, heading towards the sea. I was overtaken by a light twin who was obviously happy to fly a circuit which took him well out to sea. No way was I going to follow him out there at circuit height. So, what should I have done?
P1
I'm not an expert but I cannot think of any rule of the air which is dependent on radio, at least in the UK.
In your case, because you had radio, you at least knew what the other party, who was obviously breaking the rules, was planning to do. Even then, you understandably found it difficult to decide what action to take in the short time you had available. At least you were on the ground.
I spent the first four years of my flying life without radio and on several occasions have been faced with others similarly putting me in a difficult situation without any opportunity to clarify what we were doing over the radio.
For example, on my QXC in a DH82, I was happily proceeding downwind at Shoreham, heading towards the sea. I was overtaken by a light twin who was obviously happy to fly a circuit which took him well out to sea. No way was I going to follow him out there at circuit height. So, what should I have done?
P1
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Holy mackerel - I just wrote a bundle and then the server got overloaded and binned the lot
Anyway Pulse - do you non R/T chaps have some culture crisis
I can appreciate that a great Garmin and Bendix kit might look out of place, but what about a handheld just in case.
Bet you hate transponders? Think they + Mode C should be mandatory - sorry to be totally subjective.
Now I do not pretend to know how you non-R/T folk go about entering ATZ's etc - do you have to get PPO and give an ETA ?
Better than just appearing out of nowhere.
So you were in a Moth downwind. There was a recent thread that vaguley relates, but did Shoreham know you were coming.
I can only assume they did - spotted you joining at or around your ETA and were then able to inform the rest of those in the circuit about your presence.
Hence you go downwind - base - final .....and land if you consider everything prudent to do so?
I look forward to hearing just what you do do, so I know what to be prepared for.
Now to submit...............again
Anyway Pulse - do you non R/T chaps have some culture crisis
I can appreciate that a great Garmin and Bendix kit might look out of place, but what about a handheld just in case.Bet you hate transponders? Think they + Mode C should be mandatory - sorry to be totally subjective.
Now I do not pretend to know how you non-R/T folk go about entering ATZ's etc - do you have to get PPO and give an ETA ?
Better than just appearing out of nowhere.
So you were in a Moth downwind. There was a recent thread that vaguley relates, but did Shoreham know you were coming.
I can only assume they did - spotted you joining at or around your ETA and were then able to inform the rest of those in the circuit about your presence.
Hence you go downwind - base - final .....and land if you consider everything prudent to do so?
I look forward to hearing just what you do do, so I know what to be prepared for.
Now to submit...............again
SS ,
I did say that "for the first four years" I was non-radio. Regrettably, for the many, many, years since then I have fallen from the the noble heights of scarf & goggles, eyeball with no radio, to the more common shirt sleeves, 2 x VHF, 2 x COM, ADF, 2 x GPS and a transponder. Ever since I have been more scared by radio procedures and ATC than I ever was by being non- radio. But then, I was a lot younger and life was simpler.
I can't help wondering if students taught in a non-radio environment develop better sense of airmanship than those who find radio essential. It's so long since I flew non-radio that I do not include myself in that bracket as I think my airmanship has deteriorated. Maybe I'm just getting older
.
As for joining the circuit, unless the PPR tells you otherwise, it's a standard overhead join but you have to look at the signals square to get the information you require. If there is ATC you look out for pretty lights from the Tower. Incidentaly I suffered a radio failure a few months ago and it was like old times, getting a green light from the Tower at an International Airport
As for what I did. Your are mostly correct. I joined base, staying at circuit height, ready to go around if necessary. You could do this easily in the Tiger because we always did glide approaches and you could lose a lot of height very quickly with a lot of sideslip (Oh how I miss that!). I did get a green from the Tower so completed the landing.
Incidentally, after landing I taxied up to the pumps where there was a huge queue of Spamcans waiting. The wonderful old chap on the pumps was so pleased to see a Tiger Moth that he ignored them all and gave me priority
Andy ,
I would be very interested to know how you would have left the circuit under those circumstances. Not trying trap you. I am interested to learn from others.
I did say that "for the first four years" I was non-radio. Regrettably, for the many, many, years since then I have fallen from the the noble heights of scarf & goggles, eyeball with no radio, to the more common shirt sleeves, 2 x VHF, 2 x COM, ADF, 2 x GPS and a transponder. Ever since I have been more scared by radio procedures and ATC than I ever was by being non- radio. But then, I was a lot younger and life was simpler.
I can't help wondering if students taught in a non-radio environment develop better sense of airmanship than those who find radio essential. It's so long since I flew non-radio that I do not include myself in that bracket as I think my airmanship has deteriorated. Maybe I'm just getting older
.As for joining the circuit, unless the PPR tells you otherwise, it's a standard overhead join but you have to look at the signals square to get the information you require. If there is ATC you look out for pretty lights from the Tower. Incidentaly I suffered a radio failure a few months ago and it was like old times, getting a green light from the Tower at an International Airport
As for what I did. Your are mostly correct. I joined base, staying at circuit height, ready to go around if necessary. You could do this easily in the Tiger because we always did glide approaches and you could lose a lot of height very quickly with a lot of sideslip (Oh how I miss that!). I did get a green from the Tower so completed the landing.
Incidentally, after landing I taxied up to the pumps where there was a huge queue of Spamcans waiting. The wonderful old chap on the pumps was so pleased to see a Tiger Moth that he ignored them all and gave me priority
Andy ,
I would be very interested to know how you would have left the circuit under those circumstances. Not trying trap you. I am interested to learn from others.
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I can assure you guys of one thing - while i would have bust a bollock to ensure there was no physical contact between my aircraft and this fools, there WOULD most certainly have been physical contact with my steel toecap and this idiots temple and spine later.
Their simply is no excuse whatsoever for this sort of cavalier attitude to another aviators life. Simple as that. Endex.
In my experience it's usualy always pointless trying to have stern words with these sort of people, "they always know best, have always done it as so, it's there home field" and so on and so on...
A good shoeing always stays in the memory however. Not pleasant medicine to dispense, ever, but sadly sometimes needed.
Their simply is no excuse whatsoever for this sort of cavalier attitude to another aviators life. Simple as that. Endex.
In my experience it's usualy always pointless trying to have stern words with these sort of people, "they always know best, have always done it as so, it's there home field" and so on and so on...
A good shoeing always stays in the memory however. Not pleasant medicine to dispense, ever, but sadly sometimes needed.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Spotted you joining at or around your ETA and were then able to inform the rest of those in the circuit about your presence
Ok, sorry about the sarcasm, but I'm always shocked that people expect to be told who is in the circuit with them. Several times I've been in a busy circuit and only remained safe through looking out as well as listening to the radio. For example, turning downwind in a busy circuit, someone else calls downwind. You spot someone late downwind, but is that the person you heard on the radio a moment ago? Or is the guy on the radio somewhere between you and the guy you've just seen? If they're the only two aircraft in the circuit and they've both got radios, you'd probably know - but if there are 6 or 8 others? In a busy un-controlled circuit, it's just not possible to keep track of every aircraft simply from their radio calls - you must look out, too, even at airfields where non-radio aircraft aren't allowed.
I've flown non-radio a couple of times. Nothing difficult about it. Most fields, if they allow it, require PPR so that they can give you any important information which they'd normally give you over the radio. They don't actually care whether you turn up or not, they don't keep a record of the fact that you've called, it's only so you can get all the latest information.
After that, join overhead, and, while in the overhead, have a good look-out for traffic, and check out the signal square. Then continue as for any other approach, except your lookout needs to be even better than normally. And you have to keep a special lookout for idiots with radios who assume that because you're not on the radio you're not there. And that's it - simple!
The only difficult thing is at airfields with variable circuit directions. Of course you'll know which runway (and which circuit) they're using before you leave, and when you join overhead you'll make sure your turns are in the appropriate direction. But if you look at the signal square and discover they've changed the circuit direction, you need to change your turn direction and try to keep your blind-spots to a minimum.
I'd never fly non-radio through choice... but the handhelds I've used have been so poor that I've felt I'm safer not using one. And in some open-cockpit aircraft I suspect the noise from the wind blowing over the mic would render any transmissions completely unreadable. So no, I don't believe that radios should be mandatory at all.
FFF
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Yes I mentioned the signal square in my post that went off into the ehter. I wonder how many of today's students flying in ATC controlled environments are taught about the square - no dig intended at any training establishment.
M-B fanclub - the use of the term Endex tells me all!! And I guess you've heard of Doddie Hay - me mum went to school with him!!
Just as well M-B had someone willing to test the prototype.
Pulse: I too would be gracious if I saw you in a Moth. Side slipping - don't like teaching that any more do they - beats me why not. My instructor used to be in first Spitfire Sq in 1930 something and he made darned sure I could and that was in a C.150! He used to get in and the first thing he would do was light up a fag! I can feel the politically correct attacking me for even mentioning it!!
But hey, Pulse - Twin GPS - you'll tell me you have a Cirrus SR22 with one of those fantastic 9 inch screens hooked up to the Garmins - now that is something to behold!!
FFF - thanks for all the non r/t procedural info - maybe Pooley's and the other guides should put a column in to tell us where you all fly!
Have a safe aviating w/e!
M-B fanclub - the use of the term Endex tells me all!! And I guess you've heard of Doddie Hay - me mum went to school with him!!
Just as well M-B had someone willing to test the prototype.
Pulse: I too would be gracious if I saw you in a Moth. Side slipping - don't like teaching that any more do they - beats me why not. My instructor used to be in first Spitfire Sq in 1930 something and he made darned sure I could and that was in a C.150! He used to get in and the first thing he would do was light up a fag!
I can feel the politically correct attacking me for even mentioning it!!But hey, Pulse - Twin GPS - you'll tell me you have a Cirrus SR22 with one of those fantastic 9 inch screens hooked up to the Garmins - now that is something to behold!!
FFF - thanks for all the non r/t procedural info - maybe Pooley's and the other guides should put a column in to tell us where you all fly!
Have a safe aviating w/e!
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SS
Tempted out of my self imposed silence. I guess I made an error here in assuming that mostr people would be aware of non radio environment. Obviously it does NOT change the rules of the air with regard to priorities etc. but in any uncontrolled environment the primary responsibility for seperation rests with the pilot and looking out is vital. I guess many have not experienced this environment and rely more on the radio (not a dig at anyone and esp SS).
The air to air stuff is obvious. ground based stuff is to build up a variety of shots of every aircraft type and if possible every actual aircraft on the UK register. A massive task buy we are doing quite well so far. No payment and all rights are retained by the magazine but a load of fun.
We are all digital using Nikon D1x and Canon D60. Although the Canon is cheaper it is a great camera and some of the shots are better than the Nikon. You cant go wrong with this particularly if you have Canon lenses already. I am thinking of looking at the new Kodak (nikon based) 12mpix camera for around £3,500. waiting for someone from a sister mag of PILOT to test it.
Always happy to receive pix for the library (which we hope to also be on the new Pilotweb site some time early next year) but it doies mean the photographer has to assign all rights to use so I doubt whether you would want to offer up your ground pix unless like us you enjoy doiung it and want to see your pix published.
If you want to know more feel free to e-mail me.
Tempted out of my self imposed silence. I guess I made an error here in assuming that mostr people would be aware of non radio environment. Obviously it does NOT change the rules of the air with regard to priorities etc. but in any uncontrolled environment the primary responsibility for seperation rests with the pilot and looking out is vital. I guess many have not experienced this environment and rely more on the radio (not a dig at anyone and esp SS).
The air to air stuff is obvious. ground based stuff is to build up a variety of shots of every aircraft type and if possible every actual aircraft on the UK register. A massive task buy we are doing quite well so far. No payment and all rights are retained by the magazine but a load of fun.
We are all digital using Nikon D1x and Canon D60. Although the Canon is cheaper it is a great camera and some of the shots are better than the Nikon. You cant go wrong with this particularly if you have Canon lenses already. I am thinking of looking at the new Kodak (nikon based) 12mpix camera for around £3,500. waiting for someone from a sister mag of PILOT to test it.
Always happy to receive pix for the library (which we hope to also be on the new Pilotweb site some time early next year) but it doies mean the photographer has to assign all rights to use so I doubt whether you would want to offer up your ground pix unless like us you enjoy doiung it and want to see your pix published.
If you want to know more feel free to e-mail me.
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Thanks for especially not having a dig at SS!!
Ah. now i have placed you - bit slow, really.
Well seeing as one of the Mags on the number two engine had the biggest drop I have ever come across yesterday and the wx is not my favoured for getting airborne over in the west today....
I will e-mail you sometime, but off to sunnier climbs from the middle of next week. Pleased to hear views on D60 - I have 2 x EOS 5's and an EOS 3 and hence all the lenses! Hence no digital yet, but if you scan KR25 and 64 maybe I could lend a gratis hand to your project? (Had a nice pic in the world's leading weekly last week - no clues though!!
I must get a bit of practice in with this non-R/T stuff! Off to read what the fire strike thread has to offer.......
Ah. now i have placed you - bit slow, really.
Well seeing as one of the Mags on the number two engine had the biggest drop I have ever come across yesterday and the wx is not my favoured for getting airborne over in the west today....
I will e-mail you sometime, but off to sunnier climbs from the middle of next week. Pleased to hear views on D60 - I have 2 x EOS 5's and an EOS 3 and hence all the lenses! Hence no digital yet, but if you scan KR25 and 64 maybe I could lend a gratis hand to your project? (Had a nice pic in the world's leading weekly last week - no clues though!!
I must get a bit of practice in with this non-R/T stuff! Off to read what the fire strike thread has to offer.......
