Strange G.A. Practices!

[jayemm]

Aussie Andy,

I know. I view vacating onto grass very risky unless I am familiar with it or ATC says it's ok. My suggestion depends on the width of the runway.

Either way, if I hadn't started the backtrack I'd try to keep as clear as possible irrespective of what rules exist that say the other guy shouldn't land!

[sharpshot]

Now the enquiring minds are getting technical - good for you!
Here goes; Licensed aerodromes have to conform to CAP 168 and Runways are coded from 1 to 4.
Now I can't speak on grass runways, but the same probably applies. (Always in something a bit heavy for potentially damp grass and I hate to think about all the performance issues regarding whether its wet and how long etc.)

Back to the point all runways are (should be) safeguarded with a "strip area" around the runway. This ranges from 40m up to 150m for a precision app. runway. Best way to visualise this is usually by noting where any runway holding points/stop bars/wig wags are located. Inside ot these and you have not "vacated" the runway.......so in this instance, it was still mine.

I'll try and look through the books and see if same applies to grass runways........don't suppose their are any precision approaches on to grass

No it was not a helicopter - and don't be fooled by them either. Just remember, and I was useless at physics, the forces required to kep them airborne have to exceed the equivalent of their weight hence rotor wash can do a lot of damage. Please excuse my lay interpretation, but the nett result may not be pretty/

Got to go to a meeting.......other side of airfield!

[skyraider]

sounds to me like the 'aviator' has a helluva lot of confidence in his landing abilities, not to mention an equivalent ego/arrogance to feel the need to demonstate this.

If it WAS an emergency (SS did not mention any pan/mayday calls) then if he has time to tell you not to backtrack because he is landing, then he has enough time to tell you he has problems.

so for my money's worth radio silence would probably make me think that he has a problem, "aviate, navigate, communicate" and all that...

sitting in my chair, I'm not really sure what I would have done in SS's situation but a game of chicken would not be ruled out....

I assume as this thread is happening that the aviator was able to land/stop in the space available so we wait with baited breath for the answer.

sky...

[vintage ATCO]

It is immaterial if the runway is grass or hard as far as runway strips are concerned. For a visual runway, code 1, the width is 30m either side of the centreline, and for a visual code 2 runway it is 40m. Straying a bit off-topic but for an instrument runway we hold closer than the edge of the runway strip, it can be 90m from the centreline for a code 4 rwy (ignoring Cat III).

Although you're quite correct in saying you haven't vacated the runway until you are outside this area, in practice providing the acft has vacated the runway and is keeping going we will clear the next one to land. Sometimes you have too!! But here I am talking full ATC.

But back to the original post, clear breach of Rule 17(7)(b) in my view.

[Mr. TCU]

If this had happened in Canada, the aircraft on the ground would have to vacate the runway for the landing aircraft.

See CARs 602.19 (7) - "Where an aircraft is in flight or manoeuvring on the surface, the pilot-in-command of the aircraft shall give way to an aircraft that is landing or about to land."

[Aussie Andy]

...we thought that was meant to apply to aircarft not yet on the runway, i.e. taxiing, versus those that have just landed, which kinda makes sense, yeah?

[LowNSlow]

How can a pilot who has just landed on a runway with no turn offs (long grass) do anything other than backtrack? As the landing isn't over until the aircraft is clear of the active runway, SS in these circumstances is not technically in an aircraft manouvering, he is in an aircraft landing. Unless the chap behind him had an emergency then SS has priority until such time as he clears the active.

I know it's easy to say sitting in the comfort of home but I would have been tempted not to hurry to get out of this arseholes way and continued to taxi back to the end of the runway. Alternatively, if I'd felt my safety was threatened enough I'd consider coming to a stop, shutting down and getting out for a ciggie and see what Mr. Hotshot did with the situation.

Once I felt safe enough I'd clear the active for him to land. If his tone was as condesceding as I'm interpreting it, then I'd have chinned him.

[meslag]

My first instinct was that it was an airfield that they hold one of the british aero nats at, but then you said east of cambridge.

The airfield i thought you meant is very similar. At this years nats, arriving aircraft landed in a westerly direction then continued to the end to a holding area. They then did a beautiful formation scarper to the pan (this happened when lots of ships arriving).

Perhaps my experience is very gash, having been raised on farmstrips and "less than controlled" airfields but i would have just said "Roger. Will expedite my taxi. " Then left the decision to him/her.

In my humble experience it is safe to land over the top of someone who is backtracking or is stationary if you keep them in view with sideslip, you know what you are doing and you have excess runway.
If they have to go-around and they feel agreeved then i am sure they will come and talk to you about it.

As an aside, a similar thing happened to me at work the other day in LGTS (look it up because i cant spell it). A C150 landed then could not decide where to taxi/back track/ spin on the spot etc etc. he was been actively encouraged vocally by ATC to leave in any direction possible but that did not nothing to stifle the surprise when he turned to face us and saw an A321 go around from the flare.
Were we cross? Of course not - it would make a good bar story for him.

Ps. dont get at 50' circuits until you have spent a lazy summer evening in your cub doing them, please.

[sharpshot]

Interesting overnight contributions.

Vintage ATCO - I have a sign outside the door that tells me if we are CAT1 or CAT III - just wish I had the I/R and the plane in which to practice the latter - can't even experience from the jumpseat anymore, although did one myself in a DC-10 sim once - YO!

LowNSlow - Glad you interpret my understanding of situations and Aussie - beats me what they do in Canada

Meslag - Circuit height does not give me a problem - but how many people go crosswind at about 50' with another plane on short final Another issue that bothered me in the cold light of day - what was he doing / where was he before I had visual contact with him?

Just like to point out that this was not Old Buck......like that place on a sunny day.
However, place in question is related to a word you'll find in the good old Oxford Dict.

Frankly I felt like decking the pratt! But I'm not like that......really!
There was no EMERGENCY, I have a feeling he probably owned the place ?

I had done a 180 when he informed me he WAS landing. A rapid survey of my surroundings told me I had no way of vacating so I went as close to the runways edge as possible and put the brakes on. He landed.....well clear of me - but hey there are no guarantees - backtracked and by the time I reached the apron he had shutdown and vanished. Welcome to the O.K. Coral - been there once before and I don't think it will ever change

Next time I met up with a gentleman from the CAA I told him about it. The event, relative to the location, did not appear to surprise him. "Hope you MOR'd him".

A few weeks ago I landed at another airfield into a 17 kt. headwind. Never landed there before although had taken off. The landing roll was very short and I thought I could vacate on to the grass to park alongside others. The AFISO advised that I would have to roll to the end. Now, despite trying to expedite, the guy behind had to go around. I apologised.
At least nobody was endangered.

[Aussie Andy]

Gotta love this thread

I have always wondered what "Cat III" etc. means - so searched on PPRUNE, if interested you can read a bit about it here. Where is this in the AIP?

Meanwhile, sharpshot, would be much obliged for hints or statement as to where this took place - I don't think you can get done for defamation of an airfield, and I'd like to be forewarned in case I am ever heading to the place myself!

[pulse1]

SS,

Presumably he communicated with you on 122.60?

[sharpshot]

PULSE1
You've got your finger on it
Had to call someone to have a squint in Pooley's or what have you.

So, had any experiences yourself?

Aussie - you'll need a Jiffy Bag soon, not just an envelope to hold all the data!! Don't worry too much about CAT III for now - if you find it's that bad, you should have gone down the pub instead

[pulse1]

SS,

Well it sounds the sort of place where someone is going to make you mad

No, I do not have any similar experiences to share but I am pleased that you shared this one. I learn such a lot from this sort of thread. The nearest I have come is too many people turning final just in front of me when I have already called final. This never happened to me until this year when I have had three of them, at White Waltham, Popham and Le Touquet. This is particularly annoying as I always tend to do tight circuits whenever possible.

Most of my other exciting moments have been self generated

P1

[sharpshot]

I know what you mean Pulse - it's just that ATC usually shove an A.321 in front of me and then remind me of the vortex spacing.......then tell me to hurry up or I'll be number three to a 757 (Ended up doing 155kts to two and a half DME)

Flying a bit at a smaller place in the interim and getting used to following a Tomahawk when I'm trying to stay in the circuit and get the speed back is different........mind you ATC suggested he keep his circuit tighter in future, but if the guy was a low time PPL or student I'm happy to pace myself.

Tell you about another one that got my back up next week......

[david viewing]

Just picked up on this thread and noticed the reference to Canada - the place where you have to know the range at which you can tell the difference between a moose and a reindeer. Might have been handy in this situation!

Personally, I'd have stopped at 45 deg to the grass with my hand on the throttle waiting to see where his roll out would end. But then I havn't seen the grass. (or the approach lights concealed in it)

[formationfoto]

Isn't there a turn off to a holding point and disused runway about a third of the way down the 06 runway - a possible option in the circumstances described?

The airfield has applied strict rules for based a/c to try and prevent this sort of behaviour and reputation - assuming I have the right place.

[sharpshot]

Well FFF,
I think your last Para says it all - doesn't it. It tells me that they obviously have a problem with the behaviour of some of their aeronautical brethren - perhaps "antics" would be a better description!

A disused part of an airfield is just that - I admit that I sometimes have difficulties with my mother tongue, regardless of accent, however, "disused" - suggests to me that I keep off that surface.

I see your point in mentioning it. However, despite calling the said frequency, no other aircraft was using it for any call let alone a standard one, i.e. a base leg or final call hence I landed short of aforementioned "disused" part, did 180 and reported backtracking.......then Mr. "I am" announced his prescence.

I'll leave it at that

[sharpshot]

FormationFoto

I just wanted to add a rider to my last - in a former life, I used to be an Airfield Ops Manager and having issued Notams about airfield conditions that used to either not be read - or ignored by pilots from PPL to and dare I say it, mainly ATPL holder's, one tries hard not to call the kettle black........or whatever the expression ought to be

[formationfoto]

SS
I am very familiar with the airfield in question but obviously can't comment on the particular incident - not being aware of all of the details.

For the benefit of others the operating procedure there when using the South westerly (which not all follow it is true) is to continue ahead to the intersection / 'C' hold then check approach clear before back tracking. In the event of not reaching 'C' hold before ready to back track a 90% turn to check approach clear then either continue the turn to backtrack (if clear) or return to original heading and clear at 'C'.
There is no requirement for radio calls to be made by all (and some are non radio) so radio silence can not be taken as an indication that the approach is clear.

There are adequate hard surface 'run offs' at either side of the runway if emergency avoidance is required but back tracking these whilst landing is in progress is not advised. There is also a long taxi way from the 'C' hold to a perimeter track which avoids the need to backtrack.

Not seen 50 ft ACROSS the runway at this location but 50 ft down the runway sometimes.

Aeros, unusual circuits, and formation activity often to be found but mostly not at the same time as visitors following more 'normal' procedures.

I have learnt - thanks largely to making mistakes - that if you want to do things differently it pays not to annoy people in the process.

I hope if you visit again you will get a more friendly welcome.

[Aussie Andy]

Are the operating procedures mentioned in the VFR plate for the field in the AIP?