Failed me Air Law!!
Join Date: Apr 2002
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good luck with the rest of the course Holloway!
I wont be taking air law for a while yet, but as soon as my GCSE's are finished, i'm going flying!
Best of luck, safe flying
Coke611
I wont be taking air law for a while yet, but as soon as my GCSE's are finished, i'm going flying!
Best of luck, safe flying
Coke611
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I like your style Keef! Sadly, I think I'm going to have to make do with cramming at work this week. I'm working late shifts, so nice and quiet with the only distraction being the odd bit of work stuff.
The next time I start thinking that the ATPL is a good thing to get, I'll try to remember the Air Law factor - combined with the price tag, it should keep things in perspective.
The next time I start thinking that the ATPL is a good thing to get, I'll try to remember the Air Law factor - combined with the price tag, it should keep things in perspective.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Hi Rich!Well, I created the name before I had any intention of doing the exams. Then a couple of things happened which enabled me to seriously consider doing the ATPLs - and I decided to go for it.
I thought about changing my name, but decided not to. After all, I do still fly for fun. Once I start getting paid to fly, I don't intend to stop flying when I'm "off duty". Plus, flying as a career has to be a whole load more fun than my current job! I'm not doing it for the money, that's for sure. So I thought the name was still applicable, and I kept it.
FFF
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FFF: I know what you mean about 'normal' work being a bore! If there were thousands of 'planes and hundreds of pilots, I'd also change, but with it being the other way round, I think my age is against me, so I'll stick to hobby flying (if I ever get there: still learning).
Evo: had to pick myself off the floor. Excellent. I've noticed you fly from Goodwood. I happened to be trawling past a few weeks ago (at 2500 ) and overheard that someone was in a Stearman (and the poor controller was trying to get him off the runway so another could land) - is the Stearman a regular there?
Now I'm really really way off topic. Oh well... I'll drag myself to the wall at dawn.
Evo: had to pick myself off the floor. Excellent. I've noticed you fly from Goodwood. I happened to be trawling past a few weeks ago (at 2500
) and overheard that someone was in a Stearman (and the poor controller was trying to get him off the runway so another could land) - is the Stearman a regular there?Now I'm really really way off topic. Oh well... I'll drag myself to the wall at dawn.
) but i've not seen one around regularly. I'll ask next time i'm in.
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FFF quote: << I find it sometimes helps to draw pictures, and anotate them with the correct distances, etc... but maybe that's just me.>>
Drawing pictures is a very effective means of teaching/learning. I used “flash cards” in a classroom setting – badly drawn which caused general amusement but kept the class awake and generally managed to get a point across.
Drawing pictures is a very effective means of teaching/learning. I used “flash cards” in a classroom setting – badly drawn which caused general amusement but kept the class awake and generally managed to get a point across.
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CpilotUK
Do you have supporting evidence for
"a huge percentage of fatal air accidents are down to pilots sometimes blatantly ignoring the rules of the air " ?
Most deaths are caused by flying the plane into the ground. En-route collisions are almost unheard of. Is not hitting the ground classed as a "rule of the air"? Most VMC CFITs are a combination of poor navigation in poor visibility (PPL-level navigation is often barely usable in the UK climate) and ignoring the MSA when trying to keep under a lowering cloudbase. Then you get a lot of airfield-proximity accidents, again not related to air law.
I would say 50% of PPL air law material is total c**p.
For example, how many airfields still operate the signals square? And of those that do, in how many cases a) they don't have a radio AND b) you don't have a radio? If you fly WW1 biplanes and don't carry a handheld with your headset plugged into it, then by all means you can learn this WW1 stuff. But you will be just slightly limited as to where you can fly!
Perhaps the most controversial errors are airspace busts. These are obviously a combination of poor navigation (see my note above re how inadequately nav is taught in the PPL) and not reading the chart properly. But that's another subject - the flight training business will never accept any syllabus change which will make a PPL look more expensive on their price list, or force them to fit and teach GPS.
By far the best investment for anyone doing a PPL is the PPL Confuser.
Do you have supporting evidence for
"a huge percentage of fatal air accidents are down to pilots sometimes blatantly ignoring the rules of the air " ?
Most deaths are caused by flying the plane into the ground. En-route collisions are almost unheard of. Is not hitting the ground classed as a "rule of the air"? Most VMC CFITs are a combination of poor navigation in poor visibility (PPL-level navigation is often barely usable in the UK climate) and ignoring the MSA when trying to keep under a lowering cloudbase. Then you get a lot of airfield-proximity accidents, again not related to air law.
I would say 50% of PPL air law material is total c**p.
For example, how many airfields still operate the signals square? And of those that do, in how many cases a) they don't have a radio AND b) you don't have a radio? If you fly WW1 biplanes and don't carry a handheld with your headset plugged into it, then by all means you can learn this WW1 stuff. But you will be just slightly limited as to where you can fly!
Perhaps the most controversial errors are airspace busts. These are obviously a combination of poor navigation (see my note above re how inadequately nav is taught in the PPL) and not reading the chart properly. But that's another subject - the flight training business will never accept any syllabus change which will make a PPL look more expensive on their price list, or force them to fit and teach GPS.
By far the best investment for anyone doing a PPL is the PPL Confuser.
PINKS WORLD THROUGH ROSE COLOURED SPECS
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PINKSTER PUSHING IN
Hi
Sorry to push in on your conversation, but as i soloed last week and posted my solo on MAD JOCKS thread PINK HEADSET. Me being the pink- aviator head set queen .I was interested in reading all about your triumphs and failures in the air law exam.
I hope to take mine this week. I have the Trevor thom book ,the pratt book and the ppl confuser ,also the tape which i listen to most days on my 160 mile round trip to the flying school. ,so i am trying, but am not 100% confident that i'll pass yet.
I've taken 3 days off ,out of the air , to really get my head around,air spaces ,and quadrantle rules .I'm trying as some one suggested,to really understand it,and drawing pictures of vmc,etc.
My flying seems to be cracking on but I have only one exam ,human performance,under my belt and to be honest I just want to move on to another subject now.Navigation next.
I am also taking an RT course at the club which is proving far more enjoyable than studying alone,we made paper planes last week and whizzed around the circuit,practicing our radio voices , it was good to meet other student pilots as well to swop stories with.
Back to my confuser,only two days left now and if i'm not ready i'll have to bottle out again.
PINK-AVIATOR
Sorry to push in on your conversation, but as i soloed last week and posted my solo on MAD JOCKS thread PINK HEADSET. Me being the pink- aviator head set queen .I was interested in reading all about your triumphs and failures in the air law exam.
I hope to take mine this week. I have the Trevor thom book ,the pratt book and the ppl confuser ,also the tape which i listen to most days on my 160 mile round trip to the flying school. ,so i am trying, but am not 100% confident that i'll pass yet.
I've taken 3 days off ,out of the air , to really get my head around,air spaces ,and quadrantle rules .I'm trying as some one suggested,to really understand it,and drawing pictures of vmc,etc.
My flying seems to be cracking on but I have only one exam ,human performance,under my belt and to be honest I just want to move on to another subject now.Navigation next.
I am also taking an RT course at the club which is proving far more enjoyable than studying alone,we made paper planes last week and whizzed around the circuit,practicing our radio voices , it was good to meet other student pilots as well to swop stories with.
Back to my confuser,only two days left now and if i'm not ready i'll have to bottle out again.
PINK-AVIATOR
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I would say 50% of PPL air law material is total c**p.
...
By far the best investment for anyone doing a PPL is the PPL Confuser.
...
By far the best investment for anyone doing a PPL is the PPL Confuser.
Best "investment" is time spent learning the material.
This would also save a lot of ridiculous questions which even a pre-solo PPL student should know the answer to.
A few classics:
How do I file a flight plan?
Can I fly above cloud with only a PPL and night rating?
Can I use my IMC-rating in France?
Umpteen dozen posts/threads confusing VFR/IFR with VMC/IMC.
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Um, isn't there something about it being a good idea to know some air law before you go solo? - I've never heard of anyone letting you take the exam after first solo. (Question to which I should but don't know the answer: Is that actually legal?)
A n y w ay, when I originally did the air law exam in around 1989 it was almost all sensible stuff, and whilst getting one or two of the more obscure questions wrong probably didn't make you a dangerous pilot I really wouldn't want to be sharing airspace with anyone who scraped through on the nth attempt.
Now, this time around, having not flown for an awful long time, I don't actually legally have to re-take any of the exams, but my school made me do the air law because so much of it has changed (seems sensible). They did say that the new exam had a load of irrelevant crap in it to do with remembering schedules to conventions and suchlike that had no bearing at all on how safe I would be as a pilot, and they offered me a crib to those bits!
A n y w ay, when I originally did the air law exam in around 1989 it was almost all sensible stuff, and whilst getting one or two of the more obscure questions wrong probably didn't make you a dangerous pilot I really wouldn't want to be sharing airspace with anyone who scraped through on the nth attempt.
Now, this time around, having not flown for an awful long time, I don't actually legally have to re-take any of the exams, but my school made me do the air law because so much of it has changed (seems sensible). They did say that the new exam had a load of irrelevant crap in it to do with remembering schedules to conventions and suchlike that had no bearing at all on how safe I would be as a pilot, and they offered me a crib to those bits!
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Rustle
I agree that the stuff needs to be learnt. My point was merely that there is a lot in the syllabus which is antiquated and the time spent learning that (just for the exam) could be better spent learning the stuff that really matters.
For example I had a head-on airprox the other day. I turned right (correct); the other plane turned left (incorrect). That is a pretty basic thing to not know.
But let's have a look at the things you listed:
"How do I file a flight plan? "
I was never taught this in the PPL; only that they are needed in certain circumstances.
"Can I fly above cloud with only a PPL and night rating? "
It should be obvious that the Night Rating is nothing to do with flying VMC on top.
Can I use my IMC-rating in France?
The answer is "not as such" but I am afraid this one will keep coming up in various ways. I have it in writing from the CAA that a UK IMC rated PPL can (as far as the CAA is concerned) fly VMC on top in France (VMC on top being IFR* in the UK), provided the French don't mind.
"Umpteen dozen posts/threads confusing VFR/IFR with VMC/IMC. "
That is a truly confusing subject - I have never met an instructor who could explain it clearly. There is that awful matrix in Trevor Thom which gives the airspace versus privileges; the real-life picture, for a straight PPL, is actually far simpler.
*One instructor told me the other day that an IMC rated pilot can fly VMC on top (out of sight of surface) as "VFR" in the UK. I have always done that as "IFR" myself. Nobody I could find could confirm this, and anyway it is rather moot because as IFR you get a better level of ATC service. So.... we continue
I agree that the stuff needs to be learnt. My point was merely that there is a lot in the syllabus which is antiquated and the time spent learning that (just for the exam) could be better spent learning the stuff that really matters.
For example I had a head-on airprox the other day. I turned right (correct); the other plane turned left (incorrect). That is a pretty basic thing to not know.
But let's have a look at the things you listed:
"How do I file a flight plan? "
I was never taught this in the PPL; only that they are needed in certain circumstances.
"Can I fly above cloud with only a PPL and night rating? "
It should be obvious that the Night Rating is nothing to do with flying VMC on top.
Can I use my IMC-rating in France?
The answer is "not as such" but I am afraid this one will keep coming up in various ways. I have it in writing from the CAA that a UK IMC rated PPL can (as far as the CAA is concerned) fly VMC on top in France (VMC on top being IFR* in the UK), provided the French don't mind.
"Umpteen dozen posts/threads confusing VFR/IFR with VMC/IMC. "
That is a truly confusing subject - I have never met an instructor who could explain it clearly. There is that awful matrix in Trevor Thom which gives the airspace versus privileges; the real-life picture, for a straight PPL, is actually far simpler.
*One instructor told me the other day that an IMC rated pilot can fly VMC on top (out of sight of surface) as "VFR" in the UK. I have always done that as "IFR" myself. Nobody I could find could confirm this, and anyway it is rather moot because as IFR you get a better level of ATC service. So.... we continue
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Is it against the rules? I remember going through this one some time ago, and as far as I can remember it isn't legally required before solo (although most clubs require it - mine did).
PINKS WORLD THROUGH ROSE COLOURED SPECS
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What not legal
Sorry
High wing drifter,and GERTRUDE. I just did as i was told.
Who am i to question the wisdom of the CFI .
If it' any consellation, i had read and reread the book.
oh you both do seem cross
I've already had two bollockings today from another thread,and am moving on and learning.
Where are you BIG RED L, you are usually so supportive.
I am legal
PINK- AVIATOR
High wing drifter,and GERTRUDE. I just did as i was told.
Who am i to question the wisdom of the CFI .
If it' any consellation, i had read and reread the book.
oh you both do seem cross
I've already had two bollockings today from another thread,and am moving on and learning.
Where are you BIG RED L, you are usually so supportive.
I am legal
PINK- AVIATOR
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No solo without Air Law.
Well, let's see - I first did it back in 1990 with a UAS (probably not covered by civvy regs), then I did it again in the US while building hours during ATPL training. Racked up at least 30hrs solo before coming back to the UK and sitting ATPL Air Law exam (along with all the other 'practical' flying exams - Met, Gen Nav, Radio Nav, Flight Planning, VFR Comms, IFR Comms, oh, and the RT licence).
Perhaps you need to clarify the exact circumstances you would be applying this restriction to.
Well, let's see - I first did it back in 1990 with a UAS (probably not covered by civvy regs), then I did it again in the US while building hours during ATPL training. Racked up at least 30hrs solo before coming back to the UK and sitting ATPL Air Law exam (along with all the other 'practical' flying exams - Met, Gen Nav, Radio Nav, Flight Planning, VFR Comms, IFR Comms, oh, and the RT licence).
Perhaps you need to clarify the exact circumstances you would be applying this restriction to.
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For what it's worth
1. I went solo a long long time before I took my air law exam - it is, most definitely, within the flight school's discretion; and
2. I failed my air law first time around.
Slightly embarrassing given that I have a law degree, a diploma in legal practice and am on my fourth practicing certificate, but then I never was particularly good at multiple choice.
First time around failed by one - ONE!! - bloody mark, albeit partly because I was using an old Trevor Thom without the ICAO stuff in it. Borrowed an up to date book from my instructor, retook the exam a week later and passed... by two marks.
Now, six months later, I've been faffing about trying to ignore the whole thing, have re-read the same five chapters about meteorology in Thom about 100 times, and find time is swiftly running out on me. So I have pulled my finger out of my posterior and booked my second exam for next Sunday. I have finally woken up to the fact that knowing how to fly (I did my QXC about eight months ago fer chrissakes) ain't much good without a licence.
I don't know. Exams exams exams. I thought I'd done away with all that years ago...
1. I went solo a long long time before I took my air law exam - it is, most definitely, within the flight school's discretion; and
2. I failed my air law first time around.
Slightly embarrassing given that I have a law degree, a diploma in legal practice and am on my fourth practicing certificate, but then I never was particularly good at multiple choice.
First time around failed by one - ONE!! - bloody mark, albeit partly because I was using an old Trevor Thom without the ICAO stuff in it. Borrowed an up to date book from my instructor, retook the exam a week later and passed... by two marks.
Now, six months later, I've been faffing about trying to ignore the whole thing, have re-read the same five chapters about meteorology in Thom about 100 times, and find time is swiftly running out on me. So I have pulled my finger out of my posterior and booked my second exam for next Sunday. I have finally woken up to the fact that knowing how to fly (I did my QXC about eight months ago fer chrissakes) ain't much good without a licence.
I don't know. Exams exams exams. I thought I'd done away with all that years ago...