Landing / approach techniques
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Landing / approach techniques
Hi all. Has anyone out there got any tips on the approach & landing for a C152 ? I seem to be out to the left or right of the runway, and seem to undershoot quite a bit )luckily I havenmt had that many hours, so hopefully if I get it right now, it wont be a bad habit in furure!).
Are there any techniques or is it just 'practice until you get it right' ?
Cheers,
Louis Coke (Coke611)
Are there any techniques or is it just 'practice until you get it right' ?
Cheers,
Louis Coke (Coke611)
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Hi Louis, what happened to flying the PA28?
With regard to approach techniques, hmm, you've not been doing it long, so you cant expect perfection. If you are worried you really should have a chat with your instructor about it. You said you tend to undershoot, is this on RW22, or 04? If it's 22L remember 800 ft over the pylons, 500 ft over the M25 should set you up nicely. On 04 if you are undershooting, use a bit more power, you have to think ahead and realise its happening early (usually if the aiming point starts raising in the windscreen). If you are left or right of the centre line, it would suggest to me that you are not correcting for wind correctly. It really is down to anticipation and practice. Dont beat yourself up over it, its part of learning to fly!
Talk it over with your instructor (they appreciate a nice cup of tea), and if you are still not happy, ask for a lesson with another, its your money after all!
Best wishes,
Iain.
With regard to approach techniques, hmm, you've not been doing it long, so you cant expect perfection. If you are worried you really should have a chat with your instructor about it. You said you tend to undershoot, is this on RW22, or 04? If it's 22L remember 800 ft over the pylons, 500 ft over the M25 should set you up nicely. On 04 if you are undershooting, use a bit more power, you have to think ahead and realise its happening early (usually if the aiming point starts raising in the windscreen). If you are left or right of the centre line, it would suggest to me that you are not correcting for wind correctly. It really is down to anticipation and practice. Dont beat yourself up over it, its part of learning to fly!
Talk it over with your instructor (they appreciate a nice cup of tea), and if you are still not happy, ask for a lesson with another, its your money after all!
Best wishes,
Iain.
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I'm a PA-28er, but what made it click for me was learning to get the approach speed right. Learn what it is (ask your instructor, check the POH and if they differ, ask why ) and make sure you hold this speed right the way through the approach - at first you'll have to keep glancing at the ASI but as you get better you'll start to learn the attitude and can do it just by looking out of the window. Too much speed and you'll just float along when you flare, too little and ... well, you don't want to stall on short final with full flap 
Once you've got the approach speed right I found the rest fairly simple - at least, until the flare. Lining up is easy with practice, and if you're coming in short then just feed in a bit of power (remember to keep that airspeed nailed though). Keep at it, and one day you'll think it's easy. The day after that you'll thump it in again like the rest of us do now and again, especially when someone is watching...
However, it's a bad idea to think 800ft over the pylons, 500ft over the M25 IMHO - sorry iain, but it would be boring if everyone always agreed
. It's hard not too, especially given the dozens of circuits you'll do before you escape to the navs, but you'll be landing elsewhere before too long and it's a shock when your usual landmarks aren't there. Better to try and learn to judge the perspective.
HTH, and good luck
) and make sure you hold this speed right the way through the approach - at first you'll have to keep glancing at the ASI but as you get better you'll start to learn the attitude and can do it just by looking out of the window. Too much speed and you'll just float along when you flare, too little and ... well, you don't want to stall on short final with full flap Once you've got the approach speed right I found the rest fairly simple - at least, until the flare. Lining up is easy with practice, and if you're coming in short then just feed in a bit of power (remember to keep that airspeed nailed though). Keep at it, and one day you'll think it's easy. The day after that you'll thump it in again like the rest of us do now and again, especially when someone is watching...
However, it's a bad idea to think 800ft over the pylons, 500ft over the M25 IMHO - sorry iain, but it would be boring if everyone always agreed
. It's hard not too, especially given the dozens of circuits you'll do before you escape to the navs, but you'll be landing elsewhere before too long and it's a shock when your usual landmarks aren't there. Better to try and learn to judge the perspective.HTH, and good luck
Last edited by Evo; 30th Sep 2002 at 18:28.
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Well I usually use a C152 to train in (the PA28 was a one-off as there were no 152's available), but once I've got the license, I'll definately be going on PA28's (or maybe a C172 if i'm lucky!)
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Hello.
I found during my early days in a 152 that I had a tendancy to look over the spinner and think that this was dead ahead.
Result - you think you are off to the right and you come in to the left. Hmmmmmm.
A concious effort to look dead ahead (but not light a frightened rabbit!) did the trick.
Another classic is to fly left wing up because the curve of the top of the instrument panel lulls you into thinking that this is what is really level.
I think perhaps I could do with a gun sight or something...
Cheerio,
By the way...
The look dead ahead thing is clearly not going to work in a cross wind - but it was just something I did to get out of the habbit of looking over the spinner.
You can all stop laughing now.
Cheerio,
I found during my early days in a 152 that I had a tendancy to look over the spinner and think that this was dead ahead.
Result - you think you are off to the right and you come in to the left. Hmmmmmm.
A concious effort to look dead ahead (but not light a frightened rabbit!) did the trick.
Another classic is to fly left wing up because the curve of the top of the instrument panel lulls you into thinking that this is what is really level.
I think perhaps I could do with a gun sight or something...
Cheerio,
By the way...
The look dead ahead thing is clearly not going to work in a cross wind - but it was just something I did to get out of the habbit of looking over the spinner.
You can all stop laughing now.
Cheerio,
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Coke 611 I had problems in the early days with C152s. I'd done 25 hrs training in a C172 in Canada and returned to UK. Tried to find a school with C172s for training and could only find C152s locally. Thought 'This'll be a doddle - just think 2 seats instead of 4' - WRONG!
My landings went from being consistently average in a C172 to being totally unpredictable in the C152. Some absolute greasers and some real Thump'n'Go's (sorry, TnG - like the nickname!). My instructor at the time, who was approaching retirement and very laid back, asked me to think in terms of flaring at 'Elephant Height' [I could ask some of those based at Bournemouth 'Do you know who it is yet?'!]. Once flared, then just keep a trickle of throttle on and aim to fly at the end of the runway, not quite touching the ground. As the aircraft sinks, it should gently land on. I was made to do several low passes over the runway, maintaining 'Elephant Height' for the length of the Bournemouth runway, just to get the picture.
I still wouldn't rate my C152 landings as much better than arrivals, (it's amazing how much the size of elephants vary!!), but they're passable. I don't really have a problem with other a/c and I put it down to the light weight / low inertia of the C152 - it's a bit more susceptible to gusts / ground turbulence than other a/c.
Keep at it and don't let the elephants get too big!!
My landings went from being consistently average
in a C172 to being totally unpredictable in the C152. Some absolute greasers and some real Thump'n'Go's (sorry, TnG - like the nickname!). My instructor at the time, who was approaching retirement and very laid back, asked me to think in terms of flaring at 'Elephant Height' [I could ask some of those based at Bournemouth 'Do you know who it is yet?'!]. Once flared, then just keep a trickle of throttle on and aim to fly at the end of the runway, not quite touching the ground. As the aircraft sinks, it should gently land on. I was made to do several low passes over the runway, maintaining 'Elephant Height' for the length of the Bournemouth runway, just to get the picture.I still wouldn't rate my C152 landings as much better than arrivals, (it's amazing how much the size of elephants vary!!), but they're passable. I don't really have a problem with other a/c and I put it down to the light weight / low inertia of the C152 - it's a bit more susceptible to gusts / ground turbulence than other a/c.
Keep at it and don't let the elephants get too big!!
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Coke
I've taken the liberty of cutting the following "Point and Power" technique from a post elsewhere by BEagle, who you may be aware is a high hour pilot on jet and light aircraft and an examiner/instructor too.....
Roll out of final turn at the normal point.
Select full flap, adjust attitude to achieve approach speed, trim to maintain that speed.
NOW TRANSFER YOUR ATTENTION TO THE TOUCHDOWN AREA and choose a specific point on the runway to aim at.
Point an imaginary spot on the windscreen at your chosen aiming point and keep it firmly 'on target' by use of the aircraft primary controls.
Glance at the ASI - if approach speed is correct, leave the power set. If it is low, gently increase power by about 50 rpm;if high, reduce by about 50 rpm. Look back at your aiming point - has it moved? If so, point the ac back at it.
Repeat the cycle 'Touchdown point - speed - power. Touchdown point - speed - power' all the way down the approach until the flare. Then gently close the throttle fully and apply sufficient back pressure to reduce the descent rate to zero, look at the far end of the runway and allow the ac to sink the last 1/2 mm onto the runway....
I hope that this will help you. Getting too low on final is a potentially dangerous situation and you are wuite right to recognise that as a flaw that must be addressed.
Good luck.
I've taken the liberty of cutting the following "Point and Power" technique from a post elsewhere by BEagle, who you may be aware is a high hour pilot on jet and light aircraft and an examiner/instructor too.....
Roll out of final turn at the normal point.
Select full flap, adjust attitude to achieve approach speed, trim to maintain that speed.
NOW TRANSFER YOUR ATTENTION TO THE TOUCHDOWN AREA and choose a specific point on the runway to aim at.
Point an imaginary spot on the windscreen at your chosen aiming point and keep it firmly 'on target' by use of the aircraft primary controls.
Glance at the ASI - if approach speed is correct, leave the power set. If it is low, gently increase power by about 50 rpm;if high, reduce by about 50 rpm. Look back at your aiming point - has it moved? If so, point the ac back at it.
Repeat the cycle 'Touchdown point - speed - power. Touchdown point - speed - power' all the way down the approach until the flare. Then gently close the throttle fully and apply sufficient back pressure to reduce the descent rate to zero, look at the far end of the runway and allow the ac to sink the last 1/2 mm onto the runway....
I hope that this will help you. Getting too low on final is a potentially dangerous situation and you are wuite right to recognise that as a flaw that must be addressed.
Good luck.
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Coke, Reading that post u just added. It says
>>>Glance at the ASI - if approach speed is correct, leave the power set. If it is low, gently increase power by about 50 rpm;if high, reduce by about 50 rpm.
Im being told to control the speed by attitute not power. I use power if im running a bit low and reduce it if im a bit high
>>>Glance at the ASI - if approach speed is correct, leave the power set. If it is low, gently increase power by about 50 rpm;if high, reduce by about 50 rpm.
Im being told to control the speed by attitute not power. I use power if im running a bit low and reduce it if im a bit high
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Holloway
Indeed - but any power adjustment means a change of atttitude and any change of attitude means a change of power. The two are inextricably linked.
On the subject of P&P etc...
There are two 'mindsets' or 'techniques' if you like. 'Point & Power' or 'RoD and Attitude' (dunno what the offical term is...)
In point & power attitude controls touchdown point, power controls airspeed. This technique is taught by the military and is widely accepted, and is also used for NDB/ILS instrument approaches.
In 'RoD/Att' power controls Rate of Descent, attitude controls airspeed. However, remember that is you do not have the correct approach speed you must change the attitude - and that means a change of power too & vice versa.
Ultimately they both sort of end up doing the same thing...point and power is not the most applicable to all aircraft in all situations...landing a floatplane on glassy water is classic case where point & power doesn't work. However 'RoD/Att' does suit all landings (I personally use RoD/Att to land following a P&P based instrument approach).
Anyway..I think they are both valid and you cant use one technique all the time. Flexibility is the key to being a good pilot.
However, at your stage of the game stick to what you know and your instructor is teaching you - RoD/Att....
Saab Dastard
I think many have overlooked your comments! They were not lost on me!!!!
If ONLY the students & PPLs I fly with understood this VITAL point.....
Good comment chap!!! (albeit a little cryptic for a student perhaps!)
Indeed - but any power adjustment means a change of atttitude and any change of attitude means a change of power. The two are inextricably linked.
On the subject of P&P etc...
There are two 'mindsets' or 'techniques' if you like. 'Point & Power' or 'RoD and Attitude' (dunno what the offical term is...)
In point & power attitude controls touchdown point, power controls airspeed. This technique is taught by the military and is widely accepted, and is also used for NDB/ILS instrument approaches.
In 'RoD/Att' power controls Rate of Descent, attitude controls airspeed. However, remember that is you do not have the correct approach speed you must change the attitude - and that means a change of power too & vice versa.
Ultimately they both sort of end up doing the same thing...point and power is not the most applicable to all aircraft in all situations...landing a floatplane on glassy water is classic case where point & power doesn't work. However 'RoD/Att' does suit all landings (I personally use RoD/Att to land following a P&P based instrument approach).
Anyway..I think they are both valid and you cant use one technique all the time. Flexibility is the key to being a good pilot.
However, at your stage of the game stick to what you know and your instructor is teaching you - RoD/Att....
Saab Dastard
I think many have overlooked your comments! They were not lost on me!!!!
If ONLY the students & PPLs I fly with understood this VITAL point.....
Good comment chap!!! (albeit a little cryptic for a student perhaps!)
Last edited by FormationFlyer; 1st Oct 2002 at 09:12.
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Holloway,
Both are valid techniques. Controlling airspeed with power works best on big jets (apparently - I haven't tried it yet ). Many people think that controlling airspeed with elevators works better in light aircraft, although there is a lot of scope for debate. There was recently a fairly heated thread on this subject on the Instructors forum. I read the thread with interest, and the only thing I learned from it was that both methods work, and everyone seems to swear by one or the other.
F3G, if point+power works for you, that's great, stick with it.
Holloway, if your instructor has taught you to pitch for airspeed, then do it that way. If you try doing one thing while your instructor is teaching you another you won't get anywhere.
FFF
----------
(PS - I tried to describe why pitch for airspeed works for light aircraft and not for jets, but I realised I don't really know enough about the subject to be confident about what I was saying. I think it's a combination of momentum, and of the jets approaching on the back of the power-curve. If you're really interested, I'm sure you'll get a good answer on the Tech Log forum!)
[Edited because FF types faster than me! ]
Both are valid techniques. Controlling airspeed with power works best on big jets (apparently - I haven't tried it yet
). Many people think that controlling airspeed with elevators works better in light aircraft, although there is a lot of scope for debate. There was recently a fairly heated thread on this subject on the Instructors forum. I read the thread with interest, and the only thing I learned from it was that both methods work, and everyone seems to swear by one or the other.F3G, if point+power works for you, that's great, stick with it.
Holloway, if your instructor has taught you to pitch for airspeed, then do it that way. If you try doing one thing while your instructor is teaching you another you won't get anywhere.
FFF
----------
(PS - I tried to describe why pitch for airspeed works for light aircraft and not for jets, but I realised I don't really know enough about the subject to be confident about what I was saying. I think it's a combination of momentum, and of the jets approaching on the back of the power-curve. If you're really interested, I'm sure you'll get a good answer on the Tech Log forum!)
[Edited because FF types faster than me!
]
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FFF/Holloway
I can't take credit for the power and point technique, as I said in the post it was BEagle's and I cut it from another posting.
The reason I cut it for Coke's info was that he inferred that he was having problems and potentially undershooting ... point and power focuses on touchdown point and I thought that it might help him.
Holloway, if your instructor teaches you another way you should stick with that as FF says..... I've heard the relative merits of the two methods argued about by pilots who have forgotten more than I've learned!
I learned P&P when undertaking some proper handling training on a jetsim. I don't know why jets are taught that way (the SOP says do it that way no doubt), but the technique certainly works.
FFF in the real world, I tend to find myself making so many small adjustments to pitch and power on short final that it is difficult to say what is driving what! All I know is (especially on the underpowered Pup 100) that airspeed, ROD and touchdown point must be managed carefully all the way down the glidepath to achieve a stabilised arrival.
Given that the Pup is low inertia/lower power, in the event of airspeed loss I'd probably instinctively put the nose down at the same time as adding power, to aid acceleration, especially with full flap where the high drag does challenge the 0-200. The subsequent "balloon" would re-establish the touchdown point very quickly, whereupon power and pitch would be adjusted once again.
But I guess after a few hundred hours you achieve what Maslow calls "unconcious competence" and the training embeds itself into operational behaviour to a high degree.
Notwithstanding that, it is important as a student to understand the model that brings a/c to threshold in a stabilised condition and to be able use it.
I can't take credit for the power and point technique, as I said in the post it was BEagle's and I cut it from another posting.
The reason I cut it for Coke's info was that he inferred that he was having problems and potentially undershooting ... point and power focuses on touchdown point and I thought that it might help him.
Holloway, if your instructor teaches you another way you should stick with that as FF says..... I've heard the relative merits of the two methods argued about by pilots who have forgotten more than I've learned!
I learned P&P when undertaking some proper handling training on a jetsim. I don't know why jets are taught that way (the SOP says do it that way no doubt), but the technique certainly works.
FFF in the real world, I tend to find myself making so many small adjustments to pitch and power on short final that it is difficult to say what is driving what! All I know is (especially on the underpowered Pup 100) that airspeed, ROD and touchdown point must be managed carefully all the way down the glidepath to achieve a stabilised arrival.
Given that the Pup is low inertia/lower power, in the event of airspeed loss I'd probably instinctively put the nose down at the same time as adding power, to aid acceleration, especially with full flap where the high drag does challenge the 0-200. The subsequent "balloon" would re-establish the touchdown point very quickly, whereupon power and pitch would be adjusted once again.
But I guess after a few hundred hours you achieve what Maslow calls "unconcious competence" and the training embeds itself into operational behaviour to a high degree.
Notwithstanding that, it is important as a student to understand the model that brings a/c to threshold in a stabilised condition and to be able use it.
Last edited by Final 3 Greens; 1st Oct 2002 at 09:55.
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Im going to keep going as my instructor says and i am doing well with this method. I was just stateing a point as a student and now I know there are different ways so I have learnt something thats what this is all about I guess
Thanks Guys
thats what this is all about I guess Thanks Guys
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Circuit Basher
Nice to hear of somebody else who trained with Mr 'Elephant Height!' To my knowledge, he hasn't retired yet, and is still going strong - excellent teacher, he also had a few other tricks up his sleeve!
ariel
Nice to hear of somebody else who trained with Mr 'Elephant Height!' To my knowledge, he hasn't retired yet, and is still going strong - excellent teacher, he also had a few other tricks up his sleeve!
ariel
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Thanks for the replies guys- its been invaluable. Now all i've got to do is
get this stuff into practice! I reckon I'll solo on my 16th next July (seems so far off!), then hopefully pass the rest of the course soon after that (hopefully by summer 04).
Once again,
All replies appreciated,
Louis Coke
get this stuff into practice! I reckon I'll solo on my 16th next July (seems so far off!), then hopefully pass the rest of the course soon after that (hopefully by summer 04).
Once again,
All replies appreciated,
Louis Coke
