Maintaining a Multi Engine Rating (or whatever they call it thesedays)
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From: Just South of the last ice sheet
Maintaining a Multi Engine Rating (or whatever they call it thesedays)
A long long time ago, in a distant galaxy, I held a multi engine rating on my CAA PPL. This together with my IMC has long since lapsed.
Can anybody help with information on:
a) Revalidating the multi rating
b) Maintaining currency on a twin
When the JAA licence came in there seemed to be a lot of confusion regarding maintaining currency. The general concensus was that it was going to be very expensive (even by twin standards) to keep current. The one hour per year required by the old system was way to lenient IMHO but what does one have to do now?
Can anybody help with information on:
a) Revalidating the multi rating
b) Maintaining currency on a twin
When the JAA licence came in there seemed to be a lot of confusion regarding maintaining currency. The general concensus was that it was going to be very expensive (even by twin standards) to keep current. The one hour per year required by the old system was way to lenient IMHO but what does one have to do now?
Last edited by LowNSlow; 26th September 2002 at 06:05.
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From: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
Your old 'Group B' rating is now known as a 'Multi Engine Piston Class Rating'.
As yours has lapsed, you need to 'renew' it. The requirements differ depending upon whether it has lapsed by more than or less than 5 years. If less, then you merely need to fly a MEP Class Rating proficiency check with a Flight Examiner. If more than 5 years you need to complete appropriate theoretical and flight training at a Flight Training Organisation or Type Rating Training Organisation approved to conduct MEP training, then fly the MEP Class Rating proficiency check with a Flight Examiner.
Once your MEP Class Rating has been renewed, you need to keep it valid. To do this you must, within the last 3 months of the 12 month validity period, fly a revalidation proficiency check with a Flight Examiner AND complete 'experience' requirements. These consist of flying at least 10 'route sectors' ( take-off, not less than 15 minutes in the cruise, arrival, approach and landing) within the 12 month validity period. Once you've met these requirements, your MEP Class Rating will be revalidated for a further 12 months from the date it would have expired.
As an alternative to the 10 route sectors, you can instead fly a single route sector with a Flight Examiner as part of your MEP Class Rating revalidation proficiency check.
So, if your rating expired within the last 5 years:
Pass a MEP Class Rating renewal proficiency check
Keep your rating current with an annual MEP proficiency check in the last 3 months of the rating, plus either 10 'unassessed' route sectors or 1 route sector flown with a Flight Examiner.
As yours has lapsed, you need to 'renew' it. The requirements differ depending upon whether it has lapsed by more than or less than 5 years. If less, then you merely need to fly a MEP Class Rating proficiency check with a Flight Examiner. If more than 5 years you need to complete appropriate theoretical and flight training at a Flight Training Organisation or Type Rating Training Organisation approved to conduct MEP training, then fly the MEP Class Rating proficiency check with a Flight Examiner.
Once your MEP Class Rating has been renewed, you need to keep it valid. To do this you must, within the last 3 months of the 12 month validity period, fly a revalidation proficiency check with a Flight Examiner AND complete 'experience' requirements. These consist of flying at least 10 'route sectors' ( take-off, not less than 15 minutes in the cruise, arrival, approach and landing) within the 12 month validity period. Once you've met these requirements, your MEP Class Rating will be revalidated for a further 12 months from the date it would have expired.
As an alternative to the 10 route sectors, you can instead fly a single route sector with a Flight Examiner as part of your MEP Class Rating revalidation proficiency check.
So, if your rating expired within the last 5 years:
Pass a MEP Class Rating renewal proficiency check
Keep your rating current with an annual MEP proficiency check in the last 3 months of the rating, plus either 10 'unassessed' route sectors or 1 route sector flown with a Flight Examiner.
Joined: Jan 2000
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From: UK
If your B rating has expired by 5 years or more, Twin training plus written exam at an approved school (there are plenty of them) then the flight test, send to CAA for re-issue.
Les that 5 years do a test with a M/E examiner and he signs you up.
Annually, a test with an examiner to include 1 sector and it takes about 1 hour 15min. Forget the 10 route sectors, if you have them, it saves 15 minutes on the test. Not worth bothering about.
So at the end of the day not really a lot of difference, apart from the proficiency check.
Les that 5 years do a test with a M/E examiner and he signs you up.
Annually, a test with an examiner to include 1 sector and it takes about 1 hour 15min. Forget the 10 route sectors, if you have them, it saves 15 minutes on the test. Not worth bothering about.
So at the end of the day not really a lot of difference, apart from the proficiency check.
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2000
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From: Just South of the last ice sheet
Thanks chaps. Unfortunately my rating expired about 6 years ago. Either way, since my recent experience is predominently Cubs and Austers, I'm sure some refresher training wouldn't go amiss. 
I assume once I've passed the written and the test, I'll be issued with a JAA rating rather than a revalidation of the old CAA one?
If I'd realised that there was a test renewal option meant that it was pretty much the same as the old CAA system I would have made more of an effort to keep it current. Ah well.
Now I need to find a schol in the Herts area that does twin training. Any recommendations people?
I assume once I've passed the written and the test, I'll be issued with a JAA rating rather than a revalidation of the old CAA one?
If I'd realised that there was a test renewal option meant that it was pretty much the same as the old CAA system I would have made more of an effort to keep it current. Ah well.
Now I need to find a schol in the Herts area that does twin training. Any recommendations people?
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From: behind the lens
I just renewed mine for the third time. Got married twice and had to let it lapse
Great info from you all, but one question I forgot to ask my CFI:
How do the twin hours fit into the equation of needing to fly the single hours in the second year of that part of your licence validity?? (Hope you get my drift - no pun intended)
Now to prevent losing the rating for the third time
Great info from you all, but one question I forgot to ask my CFI:
How do the twin hours fit into the equation of needing to fly the single hours in the second year of that part of your licence validity?? (Hope you get my drift - no pun intended)
Now to prevent losing the rating for the third time
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From: Dorset, UK
Sharpshot
I hold both SEP & MEP class ratings & fly both single & twins regularly.
However, the experience required for revalidation, seems to me to be totally illogical .... but that is JAR for you!
For the year 2002, I am in the first year of the SEP 2 year cycle, so I do not need to fly a SEP AT ALL! But in 2003 I must do 12 hours of otherwise pass a SEP proficiency test.
In 2002, (just to be perverse ) I have done more SEP time than MEP & may not quite get the 10 "route sectors" in my logbook, before my annual MEP test in December.
But as previous posters have said, this does not matter. A route sector is only 15 minutes in the cruise, plus a circuit join & landing. At Elstree, as for many small aircfields around London, it takes 10 to 15 mins, just to get to the local training area, where we can get away from the London TMA, & climb above 2500' to do the upper air work bit of the test. So, in practice, all I have to do is tell the examiner that I have not quite got the 10 sectors, & would he please test me over the one sector that we will be doing anyway!
As for you question on cross-crediting .... there ain't none! This summer I have done lots on long cross countries in SEPs including to France, but none of these count towards the MEP sectors.
The only small concession that the examiner told me about last year, was that my MEP test, doubles as the one hour instructional flight for the SEP. So we can save that cost.
I hold both SEP & MEP class ratings & fly both single & twins regularly.
However, the experience required for revalidation, seems to me to be totally illogical .... but that is JAR for you!
For the year 2002, I am in the first year of the SEP 2 year cycle, so I do not need to fly a SEP AT ALL! But in 2003 I must do 12 hours of otherwise pass a SEP proficiency test.
In 2002, (just to be perverse
) I have done more SEP time than MEP & may not quite get the 10 "route sectors" in my logbook, before my annual MEP test in December. But as previous posters have said, this does not matter. A route sector is only 15 minutes in the cruise, plus a circuit join & landing. At Elstree, as for many small aircfields around London, it takes 10 to 15 mins, just to get to the local training area, where we can get away from the London TMA, & climb above 2500' to do the upper air work bit of the test. So, in practice, all I have to do is tell the examiner that I have not quite got the 10 sectors, & would he please test me over the one sector that we will be doing anyway!
As for you question on cross-crediting .... there ain't none! This summer I have done lots on long cross countries in SEPs including to France, but none of these count towards the MEP sectors.
The only small concession that the examiner told me about last year, was that my MEP test, doubles as the one hour instructional flight for the SEP. So we can save that cost.
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From: behind the lens
Well distaff_b.......you have got me totally
I thank you for your post and all most interesting and as Spock might say.....totally illogical
So if nothing equates from MEP to SEP, does that mean in the second year I could fly NIL hrs in a single, 12 hrs in a twin, do the pre-requisite sorties of 15 mins in the cruise and pass my test.........be deemed profficient to fly a multi and banned from a single?? What sort of licence would that leave me with
Probably work it out if I was airborne
I thank you for your post and all most interesting and as Spock might say.....totally illogical
So if nothing equates from MEP to SEP, does that mean in the second year I could fly NIL hrs in a single, 12 hrs in a twin, do the pre-requisite sorties of 15 mins in the cruise and pass my test.........be deemed profficient to fly a multi and banned from a single?? What sort of licence would that leave me with
Probably work it out if I was airborne
Joined: Jan 2000
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From: UK
Same licence but with MEP rating valid only.
Why does everyone assume they have to fly 12 hours in the second year. Its an option, but if you do a Prof Check with an examiner it doesn't matter what hours you fly. This was the original JAA intention, the experience idea was the UKs way of avoiding a test and maintaing the old system!
Most people who elect to do the prof check are surprised how simple it all is.
Why does everyone assume they have to fly 12 hours in the second year. Its an option, but if you do a Prof Check with an examiner it doesn't matter what hours you fly. This was the original JAA intention, the experience idea was the UKs way of avoiding a test and maintaing the old system!
Most people who elect to do the prof check are surprised how simple it all is.
Joined: Oct 1999
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From: UK
Sharpshot, you are muddying the water. There is no 12 hour experience requirement on a twin. You can only revalidate a MEP rating by proficiency check. SEP ratings are entirely separate and can be revalidated either by experience or by test. It is quite feasible to end up with a current MEP rating and a lapsed SEP. There are probably lots of twin piston owners out there in just that situation.
Joined: Dec 2001
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From: behind the lens
Well thank you Stan Evil - you have answered my query.
I just cannot believe that you can be adjudged profficient to fly a twin and find your licence invalid for a single.
Is it just me..............but I frankly don't see the logic.
I wasn't suggesting the need to fly 12 hours in a multi - but had
mistakenly concluded that perhaps if you did, it would cover the single requirement(test or no test).
Life with a PPL never used to be this complex
I just cannot believe that you can be adjudged profficient to fly a twin and find your licence invalid for a single.
Is it just me..............but I frankly don't see the logic.
I wasn't suggesting the need to fly 12 hours in a multi - but had
mistakenly concluded that perhaps if you did, it would cover the single requirement(test or no test).
Life with a PPL never used to be this complex
Why do it if it's not fun?
Joined: Jul 2001
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From: Bournemouth
sharpshot,
When was the last time you did a PFL in a twin?
Ok, so many pilots only do one PFL every two years, during their compulsary ride with an instructor, and that's definitely not enough to stay safe - but it's more than the average twin pilot would do.
I can't see that it would take very long to re-validate your SEP if you've got a current MEP, though. Apart from PFLs, I can't think of anything else you'd need practice at.
FFF
----------
When was the last time you did a PFL in a twin?
Ok, so many pilots only do one PFL every two years, during their compulsary ride with an instructor, and that's definitely not enough to stay safe - but it's more than the average twin pilot would do.
I can't see that it would take very long to re-validate your SEP if you've got a current MEP, though. Apart from PFLs, I can't think of anything else you'd need practice at.
FFF
----------
Joined: Dec 2001
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From: behind the lens
FFF........I can tell you when I last landed with one shut down.
Now then FFF - a PFL in a twin? Wouldn't you divert?
Aaah, you must be assuming a double engine failure - no, haven't practised one of those lately, instructor not keen if student suggests feathering both
Now then FFF - a PFL in a twin? Wouldn't you divert?Aaah, you must be assuming a double engine failure - no, haven't practised one of those lately, instructor not keen if student suggests feathering both
Joined: Oct 2001
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From: Dorset, UK
Yes, I have been asked to demonstrate a PFL in a twin.
What are you going to do when, at say 5.000', the examiner says "demonstrate to me what you would do now, if both engines have unstoppable fires" ?
Or is it just me who gets examiners with a sense of humour?
On the question of currency, do any other SEP/MEP pilots find the "3 take offs & landings, within the last 90 days, in an aircraft of THAT CLASS" a pain?
Pre JAR, the school where I fly & hire from, had a CFI's decretionery rule, whereby if you were current on a complex twin, he would authorise you to hire a simple single, even if you had not done 3 landings in the single in last 90 days.
Under JAR, even if you have done 100 MEP landings in last 90 days, you cannot take passengers in a SEP. (& the other way round).
Another PPL counts as a passenger for this purpose, so if you want to hire together, then you have to do 3 touch & goes, solo first.
What are you going to do when, at say 5.000', the examiner says "demonstrate to me what you would do now, if both engines have unstoppable fires" ?
Or is it just me who gets examiners with a sense of humour?
On the question of currency, do any other SEP/MEP pilots find the "3 take offs & landings, within the last 90 days, in an aircraft of THAT CLASS" a pain?
Pre JAR, the school where I fly & hire from, had a CFI's decretionery rule, whereby if you were current on a complex twin, he would authorise you to hire a simple single, even if you had not done 3 landings in the single in last 90 days.
Under JAR, even if you have done 100 MEP landings in last 90 days, you cannot take passengers in a SEP. (& the other way round).
Another PPL counts as a passenger for this purpose, so if you want to hire together, then you have to do 3 touch & goes, solo first.
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From: behind the lens
Well d_b, tell me exactly what your reactions in chronological order would be
Two engines on fire simultaneously.......if that happens and the PFL, (it will be at least 30 mins after official sunset) is survivable,
go and by a Lotto ticket - it has to be your luckiest day
Oh, I forgot, the IRVR in the best field is down to 600m!
I shouldn't jest, but I do find the whole licensing issue of flying a single after doing plenty of hours in a twin a little OTT and as I find out more....!!
I have flown a PA-32RT for many years with some twin flying (PA-34) thrown in and apart from the missing extra bits and pieces, and effect of T-tail on take-off, going from the Seneca back to the Lance is hardly taxing.
Anyway can't take on the establishment, they're always too big
Two engines on fire simultaneously.......if that happens and the PFL, (it will be at least 30 mins after official sunset) is survivable,
go and by a Lotto ticket - it has to be your luckiest day
Oh, I forgot, the IRVR in the best field is down to 600m!
I shouldn't jest, but I do find the whole licensing issue of flying a single after doing plenty of hours in a twin a little OTT and as I find out more....!!
I have flown a PA-32RT for many years with some twin flying (PA-34) thrown in and apart from the missing extra bits and pieces, and effect of T-tail on take-off, going from the Seneca back to the Lance is hardly taxing.
Anyway can't take on the establishment, they're always too big
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From: Dorset, UK
... at least 30 mins after official sunset .....
Pre JAR, it used to be 5 solo circuits, in anything with any number of engines, & then you were valid for the next 13 months for both SEP & MEP.
Now, assuming that you have already done the 3 T/O & land in last 30 days in daylight, in each class, all you need is one solo circuit in a single, and one solo circuit in a twin.
BUT, on the other hand, even if you have not flown at night, at all for say the last year, you can toddle off in the dark, in any SEP or MEP, so long as you do not take a passenger.
Now, that is logical, Mr Spock ....
Joined: Dec 2001
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From: behind the lens
Hey d_b,
When I need to consult the "Oracle", I now know where to come.
Perhaps you ought to change your nom de plume to
"Fountain of All Knowledge"!
But alas Night rating invalid ..?? Aaah not possible to maintain over summer daylight saving at provincial airfield I guess Lucky I can drive acroos field and climb into cockpit H24.
The more I think about it, I have a great employer
If this JAR business gets any more complex, I am going to vote for an independent G.B.
Now what would Spock say to that
When I need to consult the "Oracle", I now know where to come.
Perhaps you ought to change your nom de plume to
"Fountain of All Knowledge"!
But alas
Night rating invalid ..?? Aaah not possible to maintain over summer daylight saving at provincial airfield I guess Lucky I can drive acroos field and climb into cockpit H24.The more I think about it, I have a great employer
If this JAR business gets any more complex, I am going to vote for an independent G.B.
Now what would Spock say to that
Joined: Oct 2001
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From: Dorset, UK
sharpshot
No I am not very knowlegeable, I just know who to ask
I lot of my current knowledge on JAR, I have gained from my own and others' questions on this forum.
Also, I like laughing at the ridiculous, & there is sure plenty to laugh at in JAR.
Yes, you are lucky if you can do any night flying in the summer. I mostly fly from airfields that close at around sunset, in the summer. I love night flying, 'cos the scenary if much prettier after dark.
No I am not very knowlegeable, I just know who to ask
I lot of my current knowledge on JAR, I have gained from my own and others' questions on this forum.
Also, I like laughing at the ridiculous, & there is sure plenty to laugh at in JAR.
Yes, you are lucky if you can do any night flying in the summer. I mostly fly from airfields that close at around sunset, in the summer. I love night flying, 'cos the scenary if much prettier after dark.
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From: behind the lens
distaff_b
I must locate the JAR bits for PPL's if they truly are that
The last one's I read seriously were to do with big planes and big airports and they weren't that funny in relation to what I needed to know
Can't agree more about the night sky - Guy Fawkes night is a good one to be up but if nil wind and even dewpoint and temp it can clag in on our runways a bit quick
and what's any of this got to do with multi - ratings
Someone will soon tell me my medical is no longer valid for flying twins.
I must locate the JAR bits for PPL's if they truly are that
The last one's I read seriously were to do with big planes and big airports and they weren't that funny in relation to what I needed to know
Can't agree more about the night sky - Guy Fawkes night is a good one to be up but if nil wind and even dewpoint and temp it can clag in on our runways a bit quick
and what's any of this got to do with multi - ratings
Someone will soon tell me my medical is no longer valid for flying twins.
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2000
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From: Just South of the last ice sheet
sharpshot don't you have to have your cardio-vascular system upgraded under JAR to fly twins?
I heard that Dr. Who is the only chap with a legal medical these days (two hearts)
I heard that Dr. Who is the only chap with a legal medical these days (two hearts)
Joined: Dec 2001
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From: behind the lens
Low N Slow - worried about your medical condition- posting at 04:10......is that Insomnia or were you all keyed up to fly this beautiful day!!
Read other thread - nice PA-30's down at EGBJ, but not sure if they are doing flight training on them. Great fun doing tight turns just above the cloud layer with a tip tank lost in the fuzzy stuff
distaff-b
So the moderator has given the game away - now know who gives you all the Gen
What was that song about 2 hearts..........well if that's wot's needed for the next medical
Read other thread - nice PA-30's down at EGBJ, but not sure if they are doing flight training on them. Great fun doing tight turns just above the cloud layer with a tip tank lost in the fuzzy stuff
distaff-b
So the moderator has given the game away - now know who gives you all the Gen
What was that song about 2 hearts..........well if that's wot's needed for the next medical