Circling aircraft over Gatwick
Guest
Posts: n/a
Lets say that a 777 climbing out at 1500fpm (sounds a little sluggish to me) is doing 180kts.
That means by the time its climbed from 50 feet to 1500, its flown about 3 miles horizontally - probably nearly twice the runway length
So long as the light a/c is above 1500ft and routing at 90(ish) degrees to the runway, theres not likely to be a confliction.
Even at 3000fpm, which strikes me as being more likely, there is still plently of room - it would be a magnificent sight from the light a/c!
That means by the time its climbed from 50 feet to 1500, its flown about 3 miles horizontally - probably nearly twice the runway length
So long as the light a/c is above 1500ft and routing at 90(ish) degrees to the runway, theres not likely to be a confliction.
Even at 3000fpm, which strikes me as being more likely, there is still plently of room - it would be a magnificent sight from the light a/c!
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: London
Posts: 229
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Excuse me for stating the bleedin' obvious, but perhaps it just shouldn't have been there! Maybe the pilot was doing something he (or she) shouldn't and the old Bill would be very happy to hear any registration details you might have (not to mention HMC&E or the CAA!). 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Horsham UK
Posts: 366
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To return to track my vote goes for house photographers. We've had em round at Rimmer Towers trying to flogs us aerial views of the estate "that they got while working on a 'commission' for a neighbour" And we arent that far west of Creepy Crawley and still in the Gatwick CTR.
BTW I didn't buy one if I want one I'll strap Mrs R in the A/c with the SLR on auto focus PHD mode and get it meself.
BTW I didn't buy one if I want one I'll strap Mrs R in the A/c with the SLR on auto focus PHD mode and get it meself.
Why do it if it's not fun?
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Bournemouth
Posts: 4,779
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My aunt has one of those aerial photos of her house.
Someone knocked on her door, showed her the photo and tried to sell it to her for Ł50. She told them where to go. They suggested that they might be able to reduce the price slightly. Eventually they agreed on Ł5! I guess once they've hired the aircraft and developed the photos, their expenses are already fixed. Now they just need to get back as much cash as they can. I'm not sure that Ł5 would cover the cost of getting the photo, but it's certainly better than nothing....
FFF
--------------
Someone knocked on her door, showed her the photo and tried to sell it to her for Ł50. She told them where to go. They suggested that they might be able to reduce the price slightly. Eventually they agreed on Ł5! I guess once they've hired the aircraft and developed the photos, their expenses are already fixed. Now they just need to get back as much cash as they can. I'm not sure that Ł5 would cover the cost of getting the photo, but it's certainly better than nothing....
FFF
--------------
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Gatwick
Age: 53
Posts: 86
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not quite the same as a PA-28 circling near Gatwick, but on the way home from work tonight (around 1553Z) I saw what appeared to be a tiny aircraft on final for 26L at Gatwick. It was slightly bigger than a Piper or Cessna, but not much, and appeared to be a low-wing tail-dragger. And before anyone suggests that I was confused by nearby Redhill, I wasn't - I had passed that a few minutes earlier on the M23 and I had watched "my" SuperCub on final there.
Has anyone got any idea what such a small aircraft was doing going into Gatwick today? And how much they were charged before they were allowed to leave again!
Cheers,
MD.
Has anyone got any idea what such a small aircraft was doing going into Gatwick today? And how much they were charged before they were allowed to leave again!
Cheers,
MD.
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Brighton. UK. (Via Liverpool).
Posts: 5,068
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have seen a single going into Gatwick on two seperate occasions in the last 6 months or so. They do go in there occasionally, maybe an air ambulance thing or something like that. 
Join Date: Apr 1998
Location: 18m N of LGW
Posts: 945
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Unless I have missed something here. It is not unusual for aircraft to transit the Gatwick zone, say on the way from Biggin to Shoreham.
Gatwick ATC then might ask the aircraft to do a 360 over the threashold for a landing or taking off aircraft.
Gatwick ATC then might ask the aircraft to do a 360 over the threashold for a landing or taking off aircraft.
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: SE UK
Posts: 69
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The single engines jobs you see orbiting near LGW are photo/survey flights (Being called 'Survey32' or something similar kind of gives it away)
We do quite often get single engined aircraft landing at LGW; slot minders, a/c spares delivery, and the exec Pilatus types too. Can't clame to have seen a Cessna though, as they do tend to be Pipers.
As for routing thro' the ATZ:
Above 2.5A, you're into TMA Class A airspace, (no VFR)
Standard missed approach is straight ahead to 3A. (Local noise restrictions pressure us into not deviating from standard ops.)
So if an aircraft is going over the top not above 2A, one goes around straight ahead to 3A, VFR pilot busy sightseeing (no offence, I've seen the heli boys slow to have a good look at the holding point) IFR can't turn off the NPR but does outclimb the crosser.....and the VFR crew get flipped in his vortex. Not a good day all round really.
VFR tunnels may work at some units, but until its proven to be safe, noise friendly and VFR not hindering IFR traffic, then it'll be round the ATZ I'm afraidl
We do quite often get single engined aircraft landing at LGW; slot minders, a/c spares delivery, and the exec Pilatus types too. Can't clame to have seen a Cessna though, as they do tend to be Pipers.
As for routing thro' the ATZ:
Above 2.5A, you're into TMA Class A airspace, (no VFR)
Standard missed approach is straight ahead to 3A. (Local noise restrictions pressure us into not deviating from standard ops.)
So if an aircraft is going over the top not above 2A, one goes around straight ahead to 3A, VFR pilot busy sightseeing (no offence, I've seen the heli boys slow to have a good look at the holding point) IFR can't turn off the NPR but does outclimb the crosser.....and the VFR crew get flipped in his vortex. Not a good day all round really.
VFR tunnels may work at some units, but until its proven to be safe, noise friendly and VFR not hindering IFR traffic, then it'll be round the ATZ I'm afraidl
Guest
Posts: n/a
asinclai,
NPR = Noise Preferential Route.
As a Gatwick approach atco, very occasionaly I've phoned Redhill ATC and asked them to watch traffic in their circuit getting a bit too far to the south. But it is so rare as not to be a problem.
Just a reminder as mentioned earlier in this thread that there's an instruction in the Terminal Control MATS (Manual of Air Traffic Services) Pt 2 which effectively precludes fixed wing VFR transits via the Gatwick overhead. So whether the atco's involved think such transits are a good idea or not, they are unable to offer them anyway.
WF.
NPR = Noise Preferential Route.
Do you ever notice aircraft drifting close when on base leg for Redhill's 01? The controllers at Redhill sometimes mention it when I am in the circuit, not to me of course but others.
Just a reminder as mentioned earlier in this thread that there's an instruction in the Terminal Control MATS (Manual of Air Traffic Services) Pt 2 which effectively precludes fixed wing VFR transits via the Gatwick overhead. So whether the atco's involved think such transits are a good idea or not, they are unable to offer them anyway.
WF.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Shoreham
Posts: 34
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There's a few things I think I should clarify about this question.
1) It isn't traffic landing at Redhill that i've seen, I live in Bewbush, which, for those of you who don't know the area, is on ther far south side of Crawley. So if it's landing traffic that I saw, the bloke must have called a 15 mile long final for 01!
2) These aircraft were definitely loitering over the area. I have seen a/c orbiting while they wait for permission to overfly LGW's zone, but these guys were there for at least 15 mins +
3) The paint scheme of the aircraft looked very similar to that of Redhill aviation, or possibly Southern flight at Shoreham. Does this jog anyone's memory?
4) They were definitely inside the CTR, not above it. I could make out the colour scheme without the use of bino's.
At the end of the day, this isn't a major issue, i'm just curious as to who it is!
WO
1) It isn't traffic landing at Redhill that i've seen, I live in Bewbush, which, for those of you who don't know the area, is on ther far south side of Crawley. So if it's landing traffic that I saw, the bloke must have called a 15 mile long final for 01!
2) These aircraft were definitely loitering over the area. I have seen a/c orbiting while they wait for permission to overfly LGW's zone, but these guys were there for at least 15 mins +
3) The paint scheme of the aircraft looked very similar to that of Redhill aviation, or possibly Southern flight at Shoreham. Does this jog anyone's memory?
4) They were definitely inside the CTR, not above it. I could make out the colour scheme without the use of bino's.
At the end of the day, this isn't a major issue, i'm just curious as to who it is!
WO
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: London, England
Posts: 191
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Warped, Muppit
Thank's for the clarification, especially about VFR transits in the Gatwick MATS - as a PPL I wasn't even aware that this doc existed!
A further question - are Gatwick atcos under similar restriction if asked for an IFR transit? Assume that the requesting pilot is legal to fly IFR in Class D (i.e. holds an IMC or IR). If IFR transits are not specifically prohibited what would be the normal circumstances in which they are allowed, e.g. would you normally want an IFR flight plan filed prior to departure, or would an abbreviated FP in the air be enough?
Thanks
Phil
Thank's for the clarification, especially about VFR transits in the Gatwick MATS - as a PPL I wasn't even aware that this doc existed!
A further question - are Gatwick atcos under similar restriction if asked for an IFR transit? Assume that the requesting pilot is legal to fly IFR in Class D (i.e. holds an IMC or IR). If IFR transits are not specifically prohibited what would be the normal circumstances in which they are allowed, e.g. would you normally want an IFR flight plan filed prior to departure, or would an abbreviated FP in the air be enough?
Thanks
Phil
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: SE UK
Posts: 69
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fixed wing transits very rarely happen, and they never orbit over or near the threshold waiting to cross.
The only fixed wing transits I've seen have been under the control of Gatwick Director and crossed close to the field during periods of light inbound traffic. Radar basically engineers the spacing so that the crosser passes to the east of 26 or west of 08 thresholds, so that we in the tower have a clean climb out and continue to launch departures unrestricted.
One other possibility is that you may have seen fixed wing inbounds to Valence field, basically on the other side of boundary fence, north of 08R threshold. They must approach from the north, be familiar with the site, have written permission, maintain visual contact with Gatwick’s traffic, and not balls it up! It doesn't happen that often, and for us in the tower its no real problem.
As for 'lost' Redhill traffic; twice I've been warned by Radar that there's one tracking a bit too far south and had to stop departures, and once, I've given avoiding action to a B744 because a micro light decided that the quickest way from Brighton to Redhill was up the M23!
....and yes, 2.5A is 2500ft QNH.
I'll leave the bit about IFR transits to Warped!
The only fixed wing transits I've seen have been under the control of Gatwick Director and crossed close to the field during periods of light inbound traffic. Radar basically engineers the spacing so that the crosser passes to the east of 26 or west of 08 thresholds, so that we in the tower have a clean climb out and continue to launch departures unrestricted.
One other possibility is that you may have seen fixed wing inbounds to Valence field, basically on the other side of boundary fence, north of 08R threshold. They must approach from the north, be familiar with the site, have written permission, maintain visual contact with Gatwick’s traffic, and not balls it up! It doesn't happen that often, and for us in the tower its no real problem.
As for 'lost' Redhill traffic; twice I've been warned by Radar that there's one tracking a bit too far south and had to stop departures, and once, I've given avoiding action to a B744 because a micro light decided that the quickest way from Brighton to Redhill was up the M23!
....and yes, 2.5A is 2500ft QNH.
I'll leave the bit about IFR transits to Warped!
Join Date: Apr 1998
Location: 18m N of LGW
Posts: 945
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Never Muppit! Never is wrong. While I accept it may not happen now, a 360 over the t/hold happened to me many times. Mind you it was about 10BC, but that is not the point. It did - but it may not be so now. There were also transits over the extended centre line at Edenbridge.
Just thought I would clear that up. I have also taken a formation of Turbs and Tigers over the t/hold of the active on the way to displays. Still, as I say, it was when Pontius was a pilot!
Maybe even one of the LGW controllers, a lot older than me, will confirm it.
Just thought I would clear that up. I have also taken a formation of Turbs and Tigers over the t/hold of the active on the way to displays. Still, as I say, it was when Pontius was a pilot!
Maybe even one of the LGW controllers, a lot older than me, will confirm it.
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: SE UK
Posts: 69
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fair enough InFinRet, I stand corrected 
As you say it may have happened a while back, but as we were talking about recent overflights, current procedures (route around the ATZ) and traffic levels , I thought it was fair to say that it would never happen......well now anyway!
As you say it may have happened a while back, but as we were talking about recent overflights, current procedures (route around the ATZ) and traffic levels , I thought it was fair to say that it would never happen......well now anyway!
Last edited by Muppit; 14th Sep 2002 at 20:08.
Helicopter Pilots Get It Up Quicker
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location:
Posts: 885
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi Muppit.
Where or what is Valance field?
I know one of the local farmers allows rotary landing and provides 'exec' transport to people who can't or won't pay LGW extortionate ( ) landing fees, but don't know of a strip around there...
Not doubting you just interested to know more...
Where or what is Valance field?
I know one of the local farmers allows rotary landing and provides 'exec' transport to people who can't or won't pay LGW extortionate (
) landing fees, but don't know of a strip around there...Not doubting you just interested to know more...
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Shoreham
Posts: 34
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Valance field is ( if we're talking about the same place ), a private museum of old aircraft thats about 1/2mile north of the threshold of Rw08. I don't think that it's available for anyone to land at, as the approaches bring you straight across the threshold of 08. The guy just uses the strip to get new aircraft into the museum.
Just as an aside, if you get the chance when you're in the area, go and have a look, there's some great old a/c down there
You can find it in Pooleys, it's listed in the farm strips guide
WO
Just as an aside, if you get the chance when you're in the area, go and have a look, there's some great old a/c down there
You can find it in Pooleys, it's listed in the farm strips guide
WO
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: SE UK
Posts: 69
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yup, thats the field
In the 5 years I've been at Gatwick, I've seen it used about 4 times. I believe its use is very restricted and only through loads of red tape. The approach is flown from the north, over Povey Cross on a right base. Then turn short final and dip below the trees, out of sight of the tower.
Due to the politics involved, we treat the aircraft as an overflight and our only responsibility is to provide traffic information and a wind check. (I may be wrong, but I think it can only be used when we are on 26.)
Its quite a sight to see that close to LGW, and even stranger to see it dip below the tree line
In the 5 years I've been at Gatwick, I've seen it used about 4 times. I believe its use is very restricted and only through loads of red tape. The approach is flown from the north, over Povey Cross on a right base. Then turn short final and dip below the trees, out of sight of the tower.
Due to the politics involved, we treat the aircraft as an overflight and our only responsibility is to provide traffic information and a wind check. (I may be wrong, but I think it can only be used when we are on 26.)
Its quite a sight to see that close to LGW, and even stranger to see it dip below the tree line