Personal minimum cloud ceiling for UK VFR flying
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Personal minimum cloud ceiling for UK VFR flying
I'm new to flying as a private pilot in a single engine propeller plane in the UK VFR. What would be the recommended minimum cloud ceiling altitude for safe flying in all the low lying countryside. And can I trust skydemon to tell me whether my personal weather minimums such as visibility and ceiling height are met. Thanks!
I’m tempted to advise you stick to CAVOK 
Reality is there is no “safe” options in the UK due to these reasons …
Rapid weather changes at anytime of the year
Small country with significant terrain anomalies even in the so called flat bits
Complex airspace in the south limiting route options
Thus do what we all started with - pick your day carefully. If you must have a hard limit make it at least 2000 feet above terrain. Turn round and land if conditions worsen and thus build confidence slowly.
Which area are you based in?
Reality is there is no “safe” options in the UK due to these reasons …
Rapid weather changes at anytime of the year
Small country with significant terrain anomalies even in the so called flat bits
Complex airspace in the south limiting route options
Thus do what we all started with - pick your day carefully. If you must have a hard limit make it at least 2000 feet above terrain. Turn round and land if conditions worsen and thus build confidence slowly.
Which area are you based in?
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500FT above fixed objects/terrain within a radius of 5nm and with a cloud base of 1000ft above the terrain and fixed objects is reasonable. If I have it correctly you can set your own personal limits within SkyDemon.
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Clear of cloud, in sight of the surface ie no 'scud' below you and in flight visibiliy not less than 10nm initially reducing to 10km with experience.
NB: I base this on personal experience; if you're not happy then vary your needs to suit but whatever you do, watch out for bits of cloud forming below you which might suddenly increase with little warning; yes I know from experience.
NB: I base this on personal experience; if you're not happy then vary your needs to suit but whatever you do, watch out for bits of cloud forming below you which might suddenly increase with little warning; yes I know from experience.
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I think that's rather slim margins for a new PPL. It wouldn't take much for that to become IMC. It's legal, but is it wise?
Personally, with a lot of experience, it's on a scale - perhaps 1000ft agl for a slow aeroplane in the local area, 2000ft for faster aeroplanes and longer trips over most of the UK, nearer 5000ft if I'm crossing the Pennines or Snowdonia. I'll accept lower cloud if I'm in an aeroplane I'm prepared to go IFR in (something a new PPL won't be qualified to do), and the cloud temperatures are likely to be consistently above freezing. Also consider visibility, which can be quite important, particularly on longer trips into territory you don't know: I'd accept 5km for local flying in a slowish aeroplane, or where I'm just transitioning to IFR anyhow, but I want 8km+ for faster aeroplanes or cross-country flying. VFR visibility minima are very low, and don't usually go near them unless I'm just treating the trip as IFR anyhow.
I'd suggest a new PPL, needs to be using higher limits than I do - perhaps 2000, 3000, 5000 - and most of the time 10km+ visibility.
No, Skydemon won't tell you if you're within your personal weather limits, that's a matter of judgment, experience, and multiple information sources - including looking out of the window. It may have an option to claim to do so, but only a fool would rely on that, just as only a fool would recommend a new PPL flies in conditions close to VFR minima.
G
I'd suggest a new PPL, needs to be using higher limits than I do - perhaps 2000, 3000, 5000 - and most of the time 10km+ visibility.
No, Skydemon won't tell you if you're within your personal weather limits, that's a matter of judgment, experience, and multiple information sources - including looking out of the window. It may have an option to claim to do so, but only a fool would rely on that, just as only a fool would recommend a new PPL flies in conditions close to VFR minima.
G
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Thanks
Thanks for the thoughtful responses. Just to clarify Sky Demon absolutely does show when clouds and visibility are below your personal minima in the settings in Planning Options/Weather minima. I just don't know how reliable it is. And as someone said whether changes quickly in the UK.
I'm in London but of course the point of flying is to explore other areas.
I'm in London but of course the point of flying is to explore other areas.
At best SD will show if the forecasts or nearby reports are close to your personal minima. SD cannot look out of the window, only you can do that.
G
G
Last edited by Genghis the Engineer; 16th Aug 2023 at 19:11. Reason: Typo
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I'd suggest a new PPL, needs to be using higher limits than I do - perhaps 2000, 3000, 5000 - and most of the time 10km+ visibility.
We are fortunate in the UK in having the IMC rating and I would advise everyone who can to take advantage of this to do so. At least take up ad hoc short courses with a suitable instructor in low level operations to increase both knowledge and confidence. Ignorance is always the killer.
Last edited by Fl1ingfrog; 17th Aug 2023 at 10:45.
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Been flying for 20 years on my PPL (VFR). Whatever you end up defining as your personal minima, please do the following: Go with an IFR rated instructor on a flight in really marginal (VMC) weather, if not full IMC. Will give you a feel at how things are, a feel you'd never get on your own without panicking, and will also give you some training in staying safe should you get cought in the soup one day.
Done this a couple of time myself, and found to my great amazement that I'm fine maintaining heading and altitude, doing turns, tracking VORs and ILS, all in zero visibility. Last time we broke out of the soup at around 200' AGL being only half a runway breadth off.
Done this a couple of time myself, and found to my great amazement that I'm fine maintaining heading and altitude, doing turns, tracking VORs and ILS, all in zero visibility. Last time we broke out of the soup at around 200' AGL being only half a runway breadth off.
I once went with an IMC pilot on a 120 mile trip across the country, we got into cloud. After 10 minutes we had had enough and decided to call it a day, and to land at the nearest airstrip that was still in VMC.
If the cloud is Few at 2000ft that is about as good as it gets in UK, you can always zig-zag to your destination. You can even climb above to 6000 ft and go in a straight line, with minimal turbulence, as long as you can still see some ground beneath you.
However if cloud is above 3500 ft, the tops might be up to 8000ft or more.
If the cloud is Few at 2000ft that is about as good as it gets in UK, you can always zig-zag to your destination. You can even climb above to 6000 ft and go in a straight line, with minimal turbulence, as long as you can still see some ground beneath you.
However if cloud is above 3500 ft, the tops might be up to 8000ft or more.
Beware the sloping cloud ceiling. It might look level until it starts becoming misty and you might have to do a 180 on instruments.
Everyone seems to be concentrating on how possible it is to navigate or fly A to B (I’m sorry if I missed something somewhere in the thread). I fly for airlines and keep a single pilot IR current for SEP; but I would prefer not to plan cross country flights, either IFR or VFR, with less than a 1500 ft cloud base in case the engine stops.
It’s just a hobby, after all. If the weather is really bad I’d rather cancel and go to the pub.
It’s just a hobby, after all. If the weather is really bad I’d rather cancel and go to the pub.
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Been flying for 20 years on my PPL (VFR). Whatever you end up defining as your personal minima, please do the following: Go with an IFR rated instructor on a flight in really marginal (VMC) weather, if not full IMC. Will give you a feel at how things are, a feel you'd never get on your own without panicking, and will also give you some training in staying safe should you get cought in the soup one day.
Done this a couple of time myself, and found to my great amazement that I'm fine maintaining heading and altitude, doing turns, tracking VORs and ILS, all in zero visibility. Last time we broke out of the soup at around 200' AGL being only half a runway breadth off.
Done this a couple of time myself, and found to my great amazement that I'm fine maintaining heading and altitude, doing turns, tracking VORs and ILS, all in zero visibility. Last time we broke out of the soup at around 200' AGL being only half a runway breadth off.
Feeling ‘safe’ and ‘comfortable’ with your skills while flying with a trustworthy and competent instructor is very very different from flying on your own in the same conditions and realizing your life is literally in your hands and you might very well kill yourself in the next couple of minutes.
https://www.avweb.com/flight-safety/technique/surviving-vfr-into-imc/
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From my perspective it depends on why you are flying. I don't use a light aircraft for any "must go" travel or else I'd have an IR(R) and different criteria and definitely an aeroplane with an autopilot (oh how I miss the Diamondstar !).
My flying is restricted to pleasure, so I only fly on a navex (say Redhill to Whitstable to Ashford to Tunbridge Wells and back) when the weather is good enough (say 2000 ft and 10 miles) to make it a pleasure.
If I need to fly to do a few quick circuits for currency, then I will accept lower limits because I don't (plan to) lose sight of the runway so 1000 ft and 6 or 7 miles will do.
I wholeheartedly agree that doing some good IFR training does a world of good for your self confidence on instruments, even if you don't get and maintain the rating.
My flying is restricted to pleasure, so I only fly on a navex (say Redhill to Whitstable to Ashford to Tunbridge Wells and back) when the weather is good enough (say 2000 ft and 10 miles) to make it a pleasure.
If I need to fly to do a few quick circuits for currency, then I will accept lower limits because I don't (plan to) lose sight of the runway so 1000 ft and 6 or 7 miles will do.
I wholeheartedly agree that doing some good IFR training does a world of good for your self confidence on instruments, even if you don't get and maintain the rating.
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A good debate on a topic that is not given enough airtime in my view.
‘A man needs to know his limitations’. A famous quote from a famous actor and very apt.
I found my limitations through pushing boundaries VFR including some low level scud running. And of course some other poor decisions, poor planning etc. Let’s be honest, who hasn’t.
As has been mentioned, if you play it overly safe, then you will fly little and local in the UK. And if you play it maverick, it will kill you - quickly.
I truely understood my abilities and boundaries (plus my aircraft) via my IMC rating. And like everything in life, tough experiences encountered bring the wisdom to the fore.
VFR 2000ft seems a reasonable baseline for flying A to B across the UK. Less for a local bimble. Both pending this and thats.
Each to their own and what they want to get out of it.
‘A man needs to know his limitations’. A famous quote from a famous actor and very apt.
I found my limitations through pushing boundaries VFR including some low level scud running. And of course some other poor decisions, poor planning etc. Let’s be honest, who hasn’t.
As has been mentioned, if you play it overly safe, then you will fly little and local in the UK. And if you play it maverick, it will kill you - quickly.
I truely understood my abilities and boundaries (plus my aircraft) via my IMC rating. And like everything in life, tough experiences encountered bring the wisdom to the fore.
VFR 2000ft seems a reasonable baseline for flying A to B across the UK. Less for a local bimble. Both pending this and thats.
Each to their own and what they want to get out of it.