Flight plans and class D airspace
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Join Date: Mar 2002
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Flight plans and class D airspace
Hello,
When planning to fly through class D airspace you have to file a flight plan. However, it says in the AIP that a flight plan over the radio is sufficient. Does this flight plan have to be filed on the FIS frequency, or can one simply pass their details after initial contact to the ATS whose class D airspace they wish to transit?
Any help to make this clear would be most welcome.
When planning to fly through class D airspace you have to file a flight plan. However, it says in the AIP that a flight plan over the radio is sufficient. Does this flight plan have to be filed on the FIS frequency, or can one simply pass their details after initial contact to the ATS whose class D airspace they wish to transit?
Any help to make this clear would be most welcome.
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Passing details after initial contact with the air traffic unit responsible for the Class D is sufficient.
For example, to transit Bournemouth Class D, you would call Bournemouth radar or approach or whatever they like to be called, and request zone transit. They'll come back and ask you to pass your msg, and once passed they will probably issue a clearance eg. "G-WXYZ is cleard to transit Bournemouth zone, not above 2000' QNH blah blah and the rest". Now you're cleared through within the limits of your clearance. Of course they can always tell you to remain clear of the class D....
Cheers
EA
For example, to transit Bournemouth Class D, you would call Bournemouth radar or approach or whatever they like to be called, and request zone transit. They'll come back and ask you to pass your msg, and once passed they will probably issue a clearance eg. "G-WXYZ is cleard to transit Bournemouth zone, not above 2000' QNH blah blah and the rest". Now you're cleared through within the limits of your clearance. Of course they can always tell you to remain clear of the class D....
Cheers
EA
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I would say...
"Bournemouth Approach, G-ABCD, request zone transit"
"G-ABCD, Pass your message"
"G-ABCD is a PA-28 from ... to ..., currently at Romsey altitude 1800 feet on QNH 1010, request transit from Stoney Cross to Sandbanks via your overhead" (or whatever route I wanted)
They would say either yes (G-ABCD you are cleared to transit ..... squwark 1234, not above 2000 feet on .... ) or no (G-ABCD, negative ... remain clear of controlled airspace)
"Bournemouth Approach, G-ABCD, request zone transit"
"G-ABCD, Pass your message"
"G-ABCD is a PA-28 from ... to ..., currently at Romsey altitude 1800 feet on QNH 1010, request transit from Stoney Cross to Sandbanks via your overhead" (or whatever route I wanted)
They would say either yes (G-ABCD you are cleared to transit ..... squwark 1234, not above 2000 feet on .... ) or no (G-ABCD, negative ... remain clear of controlled airspace)
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Are they allowed to say No? Does it happen much? That's not cricket! I've not flown much in the UK, mostly in the US where they always say yes.
I guess if one reports being inbound to some airport within the zone then that would avoid the risk of zone transit being declined? Might be frowned on though?
I guess if one reports being inbound to some airport within the zone then that would avoid the risk of zone transit being declined? Might be frowned on though?
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They can and do. Solent told me to b****r off and keep clear of controlled airspace on my QXC!
I suspect they wouldn't be impressed if you asked to join and then 'changed your mind' and left in the other direction. Good idea though
I suspect they wouldn't be impressed if you asked to join and then 'changed your mind' and left in the other direction. Good idea though
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Carb,
Yes, they are allowed to say No, and yes, some of them frequently do. Local knowledge usually helps decide which airspace it's worth asking for a transit through and which isn't.
As a generally rule, the larger civillian airport don't like it, whereas the military guys and the smaller airfields are quite happy to let us through. Of course, there are always exceptions to this. I understand that Thames (who control the area around City airport) will let you through their zone quite happily - although I don't think most single-engined aircraft could comply with the rule about being able to land clear. I've certainly found Thames very helpful when getting a flight information service outside their airspace.
Having done some flying in the US, I agree that the attitude there is very different. I loved doing the Class B transition at Phoenix - can't imagine anyone ever let me fly that close to Heathrow in a Super Cub!
FFF
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Yes, they are allowed to say No, and yes, some of them frequently do. Local knowledge usually helps decide which airspace it's worth asking for a transit through and which isn't.
As a generally rule, the larger civillian airport don't like it, whereas the military guys and the smaller airfields are quite happy to let us through. Of course, there are always exceptions to this. I understand that Thames (who control the area around City airport) will let you through their zone quite happily - although I don't think most single-engined aircraft could comply with the rule about being able to land clear. I've certainly found Thames very helpful when getting a flight information service outside their airspace.
Having done some flying in the US, I agree that the attitude there is very different. I loved doing the Class B transition at Phoenix - can't imagine anyone ever let me fly that close to Heathrow in a Super Cub!
FFF
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I'm a Brit who got my PPL in the UK and have been flying in California, Florida and (currently) New York. I can't believe the difference in attitude towards VFR traffic from ATC around large airports between the UK and USA. To be told (as above) to b****r off by ATC at somewhere like Southampton (especially on a QXC) is pathetic. Over here I have had nothing but help and assistance from ATC, even around places like LAX and JFK that make Southampton look like a very small quiet civilian airport. ATC here around regional airports the size of Southampton positively bend over backwards to be helpful and mix the SEP traffic with the big jets.
Maybe it's just another example of the service ethic that makes doing most things in the US a pleasure and doing them in the UK a pain.
Rant over.
PS - I make an exception for the underfunded LARS services in the UK, especially Farnborough, who are a pleasure to talk to and do a fantastic job.
Maybe it's just another example of the service ethic that makes doing most things in the US a pleasure and doing them in the UK a pain.
Rant over.
PS - I make an exception for the underfunded LARS services in the UK, especially Farnborough, who are a pleasure to talk to and do a fantastic job.
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Solent are notorious - I flew out of Bournemouth a lot, which adjoins Solent airspace to the West. Several times, I was told to 'Standby' for up to 30 mins to wait to even talk to them about entering their zone!
Many's the time I just gave up, routed to the West / North / East of their zone and just totally bypassed them - much quicker!! Bournemouth, which is (in terms of movements, including heavies, bizjets, twins, SEPs) I believe much busier than Solent, is an absolute pussy cat to deal with. Some times they'll decline to let you into the circuit (which is fair if there are about 8 of you on touch and goes!!), but they'll always try to accommodate.
Many's the time I just gave up, routed to the West / North / East of their zone and just totally bypassed them - much quicker!! Bournemouth, which is (in terms of movements, including heavies, bizjets, twins, SEPs) I believe much busier than Solent, is an absolute pussy cat to deal with. Some times they'll decline to let you into the circuit (which is fair if there are about 8 of you on touch and goes!!), but they'll always try to accommodate.
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The BIG difference between the UK and the States, is that in the US as soon as you have "radar contact" from Tracon or a centre, you are automatically cleared through all class C airspace (US equiv of our D). If for some reason they want you to remain clear they will either vector you around it, climb you above it, but vary rarely tell you to remain clear. They may hand you off to the Class C airport tower while in their zone, who will then hand you back after you're clear. Same goes for US military bases, tracon and the military controllers work closely together, so you find that you'll get handed from tracon to the military controller, back to tracon.
Its rare to get a "freecall" and NOT be handed off. The only time I have experienced it is flying in mountains where they lose either radar or radio cantact, and can't pick you up again for a while. Could be becasue they don't restrict PPLs to stupidly low altitudes, Give me 10000' rather than 1800' any day
Cheers
EA
Its rare to get a "freecall" and NOT be handed off. The only time I have experienced it is flying in mountains where they lose either radar or radio cantact, and can't pick you up again for a while. Could be becasue they don't restrict PPLs to stupidly low altitudes, Give me 10000' rather than 1800' any day
Cheers
EA
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Solent
I was transiting south to France and in receipt of a RAS from Farnborough. Very good service all the way down. "G-XXXX call Solent on ***.** they have your details". Very simple and good on Farnborough. HOWEVER Solent RT very busy and took 3 - 4 minutes to find space to call Solent. THEN I was told I had entered controlled airspace without clearance. Accurate (by about 250 metres according to GPS and DME show me at the edge) but as they had my details and I was well above any traffic conflict and I was heading 180 through their overhead I feel it was a little zealous to say the least. They also had my squaak so knew who I was and all relevant details. Not anyones fault but mine but would anyone (especially fro ATC) care to comment
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The US class B airspace (around the busiest airports, where you will be treated to such things as 500ft vertical seperation from head-on heavy airliner traffic) does require specific clearance to enter, and they can say no (eg if your RT is sloppy or your intentions sound vague!), but I've never had them decline. Infact the other day, asked for and was granted clearance to maneuvre freely at 2000ft overhead downtown New Orleans for a few minutes just for fun...
What's it like trying to fly into or through the UK equivalent, Class A and would be the procedure for doing so? IFR flightplan?
What's it like trying to fly into or through the UK equivalent, Class A and would be the procedure for doing so? IFR flightplan?
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You do need to file a flight plan to fly through controlled airspace, but what you do if file an abbreviated flightplan by telling atc your intentions, filing a full flightplan over the r/t is a different kettle of fish. When you book out at an airport in class D you are also filing an abbreviated flightplan.
As side note, i have been told to remain clear of controlled airspace in the USA but never in the UK.
Class C airspace is not the same as our class D as IFR must be separated for VFR, not just given traffic information.
The only way to fly in class A airspace in Britain is to fly IFR, though you can fly SVFR through a class A zone, or would not be able to get to the channel islands.
As side note, i have been told to remain clear of controlled airspace in the USA but never in the UK.
Class C airspace is not the same as our class D as IFR must be separated for VFR, not just given traffic information.
The only way to fly in class A airspace in Britain is to fly IFR, though you can fly SVFR through a class A zone, or would not be able to get to the channel islands.
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TheFox beat me to it. Be careful when saying that Class C is the US equivalent of UK Class D. There are huge differences as far as IFR aircraft are concerned. As a controller (and pilot) who has operated in all UK classes of airspace I can honestly say i have some concerns. There are a number of problems as I see it.
Firstly, yes, UK ATC may not have the capacity that the US system has. This is a sorry state of affairs but, in the present climate, there is little we can do about it.
How often do we find ourselves scrabbling around in 5kms (ish) visibility in the UK? Doesn't necessarily happen in the US.
When was the last time a light GA ac had a collision with an airliner inside CAS in the UK? Remember the PSA 727 in US.
My point is that, whilst it is feasable to fly VFR in Class C & D (and SVFR in Class A CTRs), I would speculate that controllers, generally, do not refuse permission when they cannot be bothered. Believe me, it is far easier to get a VFR transit through a CTR than to spend half you life avoiding a 7000 sqk that is flying just along the edge/over the top of your CTR. Give the guy a chance. If you genuinely feel that you are getting a raw deal, write to the Directorate of Airspace Policy, Kingsway House, London. They are CAA and responsible for ensuring that the ATC service providers (mostly NATS) provide the services that they are contracted to. I have done this in the past about adjacent units and it certainly makes a difference.
Apologies if I sound a bit forthright, however, as someone who sees the arguments from both sides, I feel that its worth putting my twopenneth worth in.
PS. Workinghard, I would have filed a violation against you if you had used the argument:
Firstly, yes, UK ATC may not have the capacity that the US system has. This is a sorry state of affairs but, in the present climate, there is little we can do about it.
How often do we find ourselves scrabbling around in 5kms (ish) visibility in the UK? Doesn't necessarily happen in the US.
When was the last time a light GA ac had a collision with an airliner inside CAS in the UK? Remember the PSA 727 in US.
My point is that, whilst it is feasable to fly VFR in Class C & D (and SVFR in Class A CTRs), I would speculate that controllers, generally, do not refuse permission when they cannot be bothered. Believe me, it is far easier to get a VFR transit through a CTR than to spend half you life avoiding a 7000 sqk that is flying just along the edge/over the top of your CTR. Give the guy a chance. If you genuinely feel that you are getting a raw deal, write to the Directorate of Airspace Policy, Kingsway House, London. They are CAA and responsible for ensuring that the ATC service providers (mostly NATS) provide the services that they are contracted to. I have done this in the past about adjacent units and it certainly makes a difference.
Apologies if I sound a bit forthright, however, as someone who sees the arguments from both sides, I feel that its worth putting my twopenneth worth in.
PS. Workinghard, I would have filed a violation against you if you had used the argument:
as they had my details and I was well above any traffic conflict and I was heading 180 through their overhead I feel it was a little zealous to say the least
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Class D
WBS
PS. Workinghard, I would have filed a violation against you if you had used the argument
In the interests of my (and everyone else ) future flight safety please tell me why. I did in my last post try to set out very clearly that I understood it was my responsibility BUT I was also seeking coherent answers. SO please tell me why you think the course of action was to file a violation. What purpose would it serve? What effect would it have? If it is merely to re-inforce the "controll" you exert then maybe others on these threads have a point about some controllers. I am very pleased to say that I find very few indeed who do not go out of their way to be helpful So please what point are you making? Do not be offended I ask simply to learn
PS. Workinghard, I would have filed a violation against you if you had used the argument
In the interests of my (and everyone else ) future flight safety please tell me why. I did in my last post try to set out very clearly that I understood it was my responsibility BUT I was also seeking coherent answers. SO please tell me why you think the course of action was to file a violation. What purpose would it serve? What effect would it have? If it is merely to re-inforce the "controll" you exert then maybe others on these threads have a point about some controllers. I am very pleased to say that I find very few indeed who do not go out of their way to be helpful So please what point are you making? Do not be offended I ask simply to learn
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WH, the reason being that it would appear you presumed you would get a clearance. If the controller was working really hard, he may not have had time to tell you to stay outside of CAS. Even if he had all your details, once you entered CAS without a clearance, he must treat you as either unknown, lost or at very least, he had to turn his attention towards you. To clarify my position, if I had been the controller involved I would have welcomed a phone call to discuss the issue. However, if you dogmatically maintained the argument that you knew what was happening so it was OK to enter, I would have had no other option. You also say that,
How exactly did you know this? It seems that you felt you were totally aware of the traffic situation inside the CTR.
Finally, only just inside is no defence. Once you cross the line you are in trouble. I once had cause to discuss this with a flying school that used to send off PPL navexes with the first turning point "only 1km" inside Class A CAS. As an aside, I have personally seen GPS readouts (admittedly overseas) with a 4km error.
Again, I apologise for being somewhat in your face but I think that it is important to understand the problems assoscaited with operating close to CAS. It is my opinion that a key aspect of airmanship is understanding the needs and requirements of other airspace users. This can only be achieved by ensuring continued learning by all parties. Finally, many ATC units now use occurrence reports to highlight deficiencies in the system. It is a rare occassion that they do this for purely punative reasons.
I was well above any traffic conflict
Finally, only just inside is no defence. Once you cross the line you are in trouble. I once had cause to discuss this with a flying school that used to send off PPL navexes with the first turning point "only 1km" inside Class A CAS. As an aside, I have personally seen GPS readouts (admittedly overseas) with a 4km error.
Again, I apologise for being somewhat in your face but I think that it is important to understand the problems assoscaited with operating close to CAS. It is my opinion that a key aspect of airmanship is understanding the needs and requirements of other airspace users. This can only be achieved by ensuring continued learning by all parties. Finally, many ATC units now use occurrence reports to highlight deficiencies in the system. It is a rare occassion that they do this for purely punative reasons.
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WorkingHard
Have to agree with WBS. You can't possibly know the full 'ATC picture' and your course of action is, indeed, inexcusable.
Trying arguing with a magistrate that you jumped the red traffic light because you knew it was going to change eventually.
Was the frequency really that busy that you didn't have time to say "Solent, G-ABCD"? If it was, then the last thing the Controller wanted was somebody else in the zone unexpectedly.
Have to agree with WBS. You can't possibly know the full 'ATC picture' and your course of action is, indeed, inexcusable.
Trying arguing with a magistrate that you jumped the red traffic light because you knew it was going to change eventually.
Was the frequency really that busy that you didn't have time to say "Solent, G-ABCD"? If it was, then the last thing the Controller wanted was somebody else in the zone unexpectedly.
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If its known to be busy,personally I just wait to get handed over from one station,flick the frequency change button,get to within a couple of miles of the boundry and orbit until you recieve the OK.
Have a very good friend who got into alot of trouble for something that happened earlier in the thread..for..
1)Going into the zone without clearance,presuming all okay..and to top that,
2)Used his GPS as primary navigation and in defiance of being told not allowed to transit the zone,skimmed along the boundry using his GPS map..and it was wrong,he slipped inside.
The authorities had a field day with him.
Have a very good friend who got into alot of trouble for something that happened earlier in the thread..for..
1)Going into the zone without clearance,presuming all okay..and to top that,
2)Used his GPS as primary navigation and in defiance of being told not allowed to transit the zone,skimmed along the boundry using his GPS map..and it was wrong,he slipped inside.
The authorities had a field day with him.
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How often do we find ourselves scrabbling around in 5kms (ish) visibility in the UK? Doesn't necessarily happen in the US
...AND the volume of traffic far exceeds anything over here...... I don't know why but there is this misconception that the weather is always good in America? (I suppose if you ignore the thunderstorms, tornados, marine layers, hurricanes, fog, smog, dust storms, ice storms, dust devils, cold fronts and tropical rain then it is better)Cheers
EA
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Class D
To WBS and others I think your comments are very educational. I am always willing to listen and learn and I did say I was well aware it was my sole responsibility. We all make mistakes (and I mean all, ATC incuded) and we endeavour to learn from them. In so doing we have the safest skies in the world I think. Let us not be complacent and let us not forget that we all must work together to keep it that way. Any reporting of any incident should be from the perspective of the learning process and not to find a whipping boy!
