Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Non-Airline Forums > Private Flying
Reload this Page >

Simming before PPL

Private Flying LAA/BMAA/BGA/BPA The sheer pleasure of flight.

Simming before PPL

Old 10th Nov 2021, 14:02
  #81 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Planet Moo Moo
Posts: 1,279
Originally Posted by FlightDetent View Post
Oh well. Heaven forbid the US forces created their own game to recruit the person in the first place! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America%27s_Army [The game is financed by the [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_government_of_the_United_States]U.S. government and distributed by free download.]

Speaking of Marines, specifically (another trip down the memory lane, DOOM I & II)
... while nowhere near realistic — was intense and engaging, and promoted the kind of consistent, repetitive teamwork a Marine fireteam would employ in combat. While “Marine Doom” never became an official training tool, Marines were encouraged to play it, and it was sanctioned to be installed on government PCs. In 1997, Gen. Charles C. Krulak, who was the commandant of the Marine Corps at the time, issued a directive supporting the use of PC games for “Military Thinking And Decision Exercises.”

“[In 2001], Bohemia Interactive Simulations broke off from Bohemia Interactive Studios, which is a gaming company. But VBS is based on a couple of realistic games that the studio put out—Operation Flashpoint and ARMA." https://hub.fullsail.edu/articles/wa...onger-military


Indeed, the key here is guided instruction.

They scraped data to see who would be worth approaching for potential recruitment to START military training!!! I don't think anyone in the US military believed that they could plonk the gamer into the middle of a battlefield and expect them to perform the same!
Wirbelsturm is offline  
Old 10th Nov 2021, 17:18
  #82 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 1,753
Hi ELMS77W, you come across as a very keen and interested person to me. You would love to fly, and after years of learning about flying, are about to start your PPL. I wish you every luck, and honestly hope you do well.

My thoughts for what they are worth:

Light aircraft are totally different from big modern jets. Totally different. You will probably find the C152 or PA28 unbelievably crude, basic, cramped and uncomfortable. There is a huge difference between the shirtsleeves-and-coffee flying of a 777 to being squashed against the shoulders of an instructor in a noisy, cold/hot C152. Many things that the big modern jets do automatically for you have to be worked out manually, longhand in the GA aircraft, e.g. Wind velocity, direction and groundspeed. Carburettor icing, fuel mixture etc. To go from light aircraft to a big modern jet takes many years of experience and intensive training, both ground school and 6 axis simulators.

Professional, 6-axis simulators can be fairly realistic, but they cannot reproduce all the accelerations or the visual and audio cues of the real thing. I have got 7 different commercial type ratings on my licence, and I've always found flying the real thing to be a lot easier than the Sim. But I do know of people who got through the Sim, but could not fly the real thing.

A significant number of airline pilots and trainers have an attitude that they are cleverer and better than you, and they think that if you are new to the industry, you know nothing until they have taught you. This is true to an extent and you have an enormous amount of work ahead of you, but you have to let them have their ego - they will be signing your licence. So even though you might have more knowledge than some newbies, do not mention this or sim flying at all, and pretend not to know anything much about flying - certainly not anything deeply technical or operational, such as de-icing hold-over times etc. Be quiet, modest and unassuming. The instructor should tell you what to learn next, so follow their guide.

When I joined my second airline I was about 15 years older than most students and I had had a different career before flying. I mentioned this in conversation when getting to know my first big-jet instructor and he did not like it at all. I think he thought I was big-headed or something, so he gave me a very hard time, and also set some of the other TREs against me. Yet, I was never big headed about flying - always knowing and accepting that I was no ace, just an average Joe.

So, I would keep quiet about any deep knowledge or sim flying. If specifically asked, you could say you've had a go on a friends sim a few times.

The Trevor Thom books are very good for learning and understanding the PPL basics.

Good luck !

Edit: I should also have said that "flying" a desk-top simulator, is nothing like the real thing either. Nothing like it. If you have actual line experience of flying a big jet, then a simulator can be useful for procedural practise or checklist, or memory drill practise, but it really is not anything like the real thing. When flying real big jets, everything happens very very quickly; the novice on their first few hours on the line will find themselves running to keep up with the aircraft, and they go home mentally exhausted.

Last edited by Uplinker; 11th Nov 2021 at 11:58.
Uplinker is offline  
Old 11th Nov 2021, 19:28
  #83 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: The No Transgression Zone
Posts: 2,451
I believe that new pilots should fly the aircraft that they actually do fly. rather than the aircraft that they wish to fly!
also, flying with no g force sounds very boring.
Pugilistic Animus is offline  
Old 11th Nov 2021, 20:33
  #84 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 86
One g should be guaranteed.

And if you order this seat you can progress to the F-35 without further training:
Less Hair is online now  
Old 11th Nov 2021, 21:34
  #85 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: The No Transgression Zone
Posts: 2,451
Quite interesting, indeed, the only problem is that it looks too comfortable
Pugilistic Animus is offline  
Old 13th Nov 2021, 08:13
  #86 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: U.K.
Posts: 155
Originally Posted by fitliker View Post
There is a reason why approved simulators are usually equipped with qualified instructors that have actual instructor time . Buy me a beer and I will tell you why .

There are four basic level of learning :

What level do you think you are at ? How might you achieve the next level ?

A good pilot is always in training.
How’s he going to achieve the next level if he is already at Correlation ?
kghjfg is offline  
Old 13th Nov 2021, 11:33
  #87 (permalink)  

Only half a speed-brake
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Commuting home
Age: 43
Posts: 3,445
FlightDetent is offline  
Old 14th Nov 2021, 19:43
  #88 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: uk
Posts: 978
Thought it said slimming, i know a few students that need to.
BigEndBob is offline  
Old 15th Nov 2021, 10:27
  #89 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Planet Moo Moo
Posts: 1,279
I have definitely the knowledge of a real 777 pilot (no I don't believe it myself but that's what I am trying to achieve)
This did make me chuckle! I see what you're trying to say but it's still has a slightly, shall we say, arrogant cast to it!

I've been flying the 777 for well over a decade and I am still learning! With the ubiquitous 'what the hell is it doing this time' phrase popping to mind! Given the mess Boeing have gotten themselves into over the past few years the amount of BAB's, notices and amendments cropping up has become, shall we say, substantial! Some of them fundamentally affecting the way we operate the aircraft!

I don't doubt for a second that you have good 'generic' systems and operational knowledge put please believe me that that knowledge is just a baseline compared to real operations. There is no where on T'internet where the full current and up to date operational limitations and amendments for the 777 are available. My son has searched everywhere!!! Beware using this sort of phrase around professional pilots as you will get bigger 'eye rolls' than a teenager on Tik Tok!


Wirbelsturm is offline  
Old 15th Nov 2021, 10:28
  #90 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Planet Moo Moo
Posts: 1,279
Originally Posted by BigEndBob View Post
Thought it said slimming, i know a few students that need to.
That's exactly what I thought of myself last time I stepped into a flymo R22!
Wirbelsturm is offline  
Old 15th Nov 2021, 19:54
  #91 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: cowtown
Posts: 391
Originally Posted by kghjfg View Post
How’s he going to achieve the next level if he is already at Correlation ?
Is it possible to get to Correlation without application ?
Might be possible in some full motion simulators , but not a computer based gamer set up .
The costs of most full motion simulators is a lot more expensive than your bug smasher trainer .

fitliker is offline  
Old 17th Nov 2021, 21:55
  #92 (permalink)  
See and avoid
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: USA
Posts: 565
I have not spent a lot of time on flight simulators, but I don’t think it could have really prepared me for unexpected thermals, nor gusty crosswind landings, nor stray traffic or nearby fires that obscured the runway.

I initially had a bad habit of “porpoising” on landings, i.e., over controlling, then getting too high then too low on approach. Alas, I almost made myself air sick until I finally learned to chill out and stare at that imaginary dot on the runway before my instructor and I finally got happy with my approach.

Maybe a sim could have helped with that,

Try flying an actual Cessna 152 on a hot day when the thermals keep bouncing you about when you try to maintain a steady altitude or approach,

I don’t think that learning to fly a 777 would help much.

Sim training might help you how to handle the radio in crowded airspace. Practice makes perfect, or at least better.

Hitting the push to talk switch or, in ancient times, picking up a mike to respond to air traffic controller is distracting.

In the sims I saw it seemed like one always had automatic clearance to enter controlled airspace and were cleared to land immediately wherever you wanted to go.

None of this: Say again? Divert to… Look out for traffic at… Please follow… You are number three behind… Watch out for deer on runway…

Or when as a private pilot you can’t get a word in edgeways and are not allowed to enter controlled airspace if the ATC is too busy.
visibility3miles is offline  
Old 18th Nov 2021, 09:01
  #93 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Cardiff, UK
Age: 60
Posts: 1,198
It would be as useful as watching a box set of "Call the Midwife" in preparation for a career in Obstetrics.
Mariner9 is offline  
Old 19th Nov 2021, 14:52
  #94 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2009
Location: HKG
Age: 44
Posts: 994
Originally Posted by Heston View Post
You may have had your first real flying lesson!
At least in the UK at the moment the answer is No, aeroclubs don't really care about having new students. Particularly ones who say they are "definitely planning to do it".
They'll care when you ask to book a lesson.
Folk at flying clubs can tell good strong enquiries from general interest, tyre-kicker ones. They know they'll waste loads of time if they don't do this triage effectively.
You'll get a better response if you appear to really mean it - I know this sounds like poor marketing on their side, and it is. But then they're probably at full capacity anyway.

Just to add to the above. In your initial contact were you banging on about how much flight sim flying you do and the 777? If you were then they probably think you will be too much hard work.
SloppyJoe is offline  
Old 19th Nov 2021, 21:48
  #95 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Nearer home than before!
Posts: 511
What a fascinating thread!

My 20p worth.

Although a home sim can teach you a lot about systems and check lists, it's very limited and practically pointless in handling. Almost all yokes, throttles and pedal setups are gaming devices, simply spring loaded and totally unlike a real aircraft (airbus excepted of course).

My own home sim has a VR headset, proper control loaded yoke and pedals and push/pull Cessna throttles. It trims like a realistic yoke, and can be setup for different aircraft. It takes the best part of 10 years of spare income to buy it though!
Good luck in your quest, just please please please don't try to impress your instructor.
RVF750 is offline  
Old 20th Nov 2021, 07:36
  #96 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 86
It's a bit like having played with toy trains and feeling like a real engineer. "Oh, I know the Flying Scotsman quite a bit already."
Less Hair is online now  
Old 20th Nov 2021, 11:09
  #97 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 1,753
I think it is commendable that the OP has learned something about the 777 - we should not quash their enthusiasm and interest - many ATPL pilots I know are not very interested or knowledgeable about how the aircraft systems work.

But hopefully the OP realises that there is a lot more to flying than what might be gleaned from a desk-top home Sim; especially light aircraft. Flying a Cessna 152/172 in VMC is incredibly crude and basic, like driving a Mark 1 Landrover or a 1960's Mini - no offence to Cessna or those marques. But even so, there is a hell of a lot going on, and tasks keep coming at you relentlessly. It takes a while to get to the stage where you can assimilate what is going on, and then get ahead of the aircraft, which is where you need to be: 'What is going to happen next, and what do I need to set up next?'.

Best to keep quiet about your Sim and accept that you know very little about actual real flying; but do stay keen and open-minded to the training ahead of you. Good luck !
Uplinker is offline  
Old 20th Nov 2021, 19:56
  #98 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Lestah
Posts: 180
Originally Posted by Uplinker View Post
But hopefully the OP realises that there is a lot more to flying than what might be gleaned from a desk-top home Sim; especially light aircraft. Flying a Cessna 152/172 in VMC is incredibly crude and basic!
Indeed, and even more of a challenge in thick claggy IMC trying to track your way to TNT, all whilst writing stuff down.
Local Variation is offline  
Old 21st Nov 2021, 11:58
  #99 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 1,753
The OP should read the AAIB report for Light aircraft down in the Lake District , Cumbria, in the accidents thread:


Although this was a fatal accident, the report gives a really good explanation of all the issues and considerations involved with flying a light aircraft. I recommend that you read the report very thoroughly. It will give you a good overview.
Uplinker is offline  
Old 22nd Nov 2021, 12:57
  #100 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Ontario, Canada
Age: 60
Posts: 5,001
Well done ELMS, hang in there, and appreciate those who share their wisdom here!
Pilot DAR is online now  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.