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N register and the UK

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N register and the UK

Old 29th Oct 2021, 02:12
  #41 (permalink)  
 
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I used to skydive from a Ukrainian-registered aircraft based here in the UK (Let 410 as it happens). It had Ukrainian pilots and (I believe) engineer. It was here for years. The Let 410 type is unknown to the CAA, it was never offered for certification here. Nobody from the Ukrainian oversight, of course, ever turned up, nor from the CAA (in contrast to at my flying club on lighter aircraft). All the manuals and documentation were in Cyrillic anyway. So I guess foreign-registered aircraft based here are effectively unregulated.

One wonders in the Sala case how a chartering passenger would even know - the registration of the Malibu N264DB was applied such that the "N" bit was on the lower part of the passenger entrance, which hinges down to form the steps into the aircraft, so the passenger being taken by the pilot out to the prepared aircraft, even if informed about aircraft markings, would never even see where it was registered.
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Old 29th Oct 2021, 09:22
  #42 (permalink)  
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That would no doubt be the one that was based at Sibson. It has always struck me as strange that parachute aircraft operations are loosely regulated. I understand that most of the deceased pilots hours were on paradropping despite only holding a PPL.

Last edited by Mike Flynn; 29th Oct 2021 at 09:33.
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Old 29th Oct 2021, 09:28
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by C172Navigator View Post
"Fine. I am delighted that you maintain it legally, of course. Why do you keep it on the N register, if it is kept here in the UK? If the US system is so much better, as others have suggested, why not agitate for a change in our rules? I have no doubt that many N register owners and operators act sensibly ,and legally; it does seem however that some clearly are less rigorous, let's say."

Well, the aircraft isn't owned by me, it's a non equity share. The aircraft was purchased on the N reg and I don't suppose there has been a reason for the owner to change it. The aircraft is maintained by an FAA engineer based at a UK maintenance company, the same guys that look after G reg aircraft. Now there might be cowboys out there but that doesn't mean everyone flying an N reg is disregarding the rules nor does it make all G reg pilots whiter than white.
Perhaps my American colleagues could help, in the UK a non equity group is viewed as a private flying type arrangement as the service is not available to the general public. I believe I have read that the US system describes this as a commercial type operation? Is this correct and what implication would that have on its maintenance and operation?
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Old 29th Oct 2021, 09:47
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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My understanding of non-equity is that it's just rental with a higher yearly or monthly "membership" fee, making it not allowed for N reg. I'd need solid references to prove this understanding is wrong, as I know at least one operator who tried it and was told to stop.
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Old 29th Oct 2021, 09:50
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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It's possible true equity shares are ok.
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Old 29th Oct 2021, 10:15
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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Mike Flynn - you surprise me. What happened to your N-reg A36 which was permanently based in the UK? This is quite a "change of mind" on your part

Last edited by IO540; 29th Oct 2021 at 10:45.
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Old 29th Oct 2021, 12:04
  #47 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by Maoraigh1 View Post
"Registration and pilot licensing apart, how many non-AOC, N reg aircraft (such as the one in question) are maintained to CAA/EASA public transport standards?"


Why would a non-AOC aircraft of any registry be maintained to any XAA public transport standard? Unless for renting to an AOC holder?
Precisely….and the aircraft operated and flown by the Henderson/Ibbotson team?
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Old 29th Oct 2021, 12:16
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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My understanding of non-equity is that it's just rental with a higher yearly or monthly "membership" fee, making it not allowed for N reg.
A non equity share is known as a 'beneficial share'. This is very common in UK law. When you lease a flat or a house then you do not own it someone else does. But, you have bought the right to use it say, for 99 years or just one year and you will be the beneficial owner. Should you lease a car, then you will be issued the V5 (Registered owner) document in your name but again you do not own the the vehicle as such because you are only the 'beneficial owner' The lessor actually owns the equity and only they can sell it.

Similarly the registration regulations of the UK CAA recognizes 'beneficial owners' who can be registered with them but who not hold any equity. Until recently the number of registered owners' was limited to a maximum of 20 but this limit has been removed. It is very common in the UK for an outright aircraft owner to offer beneficial shares for which a returnable lump sum is paid as security. Rental charges cannot be charged but the running costs at a fixed hourly figure, the figure doesn't have to be fixed, is common.
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Old 29th Oct 2021, 19:53
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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"When you lease a flat or a house then you do not own it someone else does. But, you have bought the right to use it say, for 99 years or just one year and you will be the beneficial owner."
Very different from renting the house or flat, which is common.
I have been a member of an equity share Group for over 30 years. Each member has liability for unexpected expenses not covered by funds. The limit on number of members was (is?) 20.
The equity Group's aircraft might be leased.
The non-equity shareholder has just his prepaid "rental" at stake.

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Old 29th Oct 2021, 20:33
  #50 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by IO540 View Post
Mike Flynn - you surprise me. What happened to your N-reg A36 which was permanently based in the UK? This is quite a "change of mind" on your part
It certainly is as I have owned a number of aircraft over the years but have never had an N reg in the UK let alone a Bonanza.😀👍.

I like the IO540 and confess to owning a PA32 powered by one in the USA and Australia.
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Old 29th Oct 2021, 21:25
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IO540
Mike Flynn - you surprise me. What happened to your N-reg A36 which was permanently based in the UK? This is quite a "change of mind" on your part
It certainly is as I have owned a number of aircraft over the years but have never had an N reg in the UK let alone a Bonanza.😀👍.

I like the IO540 and confess to owning a PA32 powered by one in the USA and Australia.

That's funny.....
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Old 30th Oct 2021, 08:13
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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Two people on here with exactly the same name
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Old 30th Oct 2021, 10:08
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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The returnable lump sum is considered as a share in the aircraft thus making it an equity group, not non-equity.
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Old 30th Oct 2021, 11:27
  #54 (permalink)  
 
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The returnable lump sum is considered as a share in the aircraft thus making it an equity group, not non-equity.
What I suspect you have is a Beneficial Share. You can only expect your money back on demand if you haven't bought anything. If you have bought a percentage of the aircraft's value, then you must sell it back or give it back if your feeling generous. If you own a percentage of the value then the value of your share varies with the value of the aeroplane. It can go up or down. If you have secured a beneficial share then your share value remains fixed and you wouldn't share in any increase in value nor a loss.

This difference only matters, other than your money of course, if the aircraft is not maintained according to commercial use regulations when it can be rented out. If the aircraft is maintained only for private use it cannot therefore be rented for hire and reward and so you must hold a percentage of the value (equity) or a beneficial share to use it.

Last edited by Fl1ingfrog; 30th Oct 2021 at 11:40.
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Old 31st Oct 2021, 20:47
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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Anyone like to share their thoughts on why the same rules that apply to foreign registered cars used in the UK can't be applied to aircraft ?
As a UK citizen, if I import a foreign reg car, I can only use it for a maximum of 12 months (or in many cases 6) before I must reregister it here.
If it works for motor vehicles, why not aircraft ?
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Old 31st Oct 2021, 22:40
  #56 (permalink)  
 
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Ask Mr. Green - aka Shapps the N-reg owner!
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Old 1st Nov 2021, 01:22
  #57 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by off watch View Post
Anyone like to share their thoughts on why the same rules that apply to foreign registered cars used in the UK can't be applied to aircraft ?
As a UK citizen, if I import a foreign reg car, I can only use it for a maximum of 12 months (or in many cases 6) before I must reregister it here.
If it works for motor vehicles, why not aircraft ?
Having had one, the foreign registered car period is from when it comes in to the country. If you take it out, then bring it back, the period resets. This is a bit tedious for motor vehicles, so is generally not done. But aircraft can leave the country and then return quite readily. So much so that it's not worth keeping up with. The Sala plane, of course, wasn't even in UK territory when it was lost.
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Old 1st Nov 2021, 15:02
  #58 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Tay Cough View Post
Perhaps your MP can ask the Secretary of State for Transport whether he still keeps his Saratoga on the N-reg?
or indeed reported his accident in that aircraft to the AAIB or FAA a few years ago☝️
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Old 1st Nov 2021, 21:54
  #59 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Midlifec View Post
or indeed reported his accident in that aircraft to the AAIB or FAA a few years ago☝️

Do tell - I presume a fairly minor one ?
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Old 1st Nov 2021, 23:28
  #60 (permalink)  
 
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If only you could read afresh what you guys post here !

It looks like a bunch of trouble making old women prattling on.
Leave the bloke alone - and what does it matter if a few folk stay legal using the N register, so what. ?
You of course have never had a minor prang, and if so have always written fulsomely to every agency, inc. the CAA and the LAA and your local Rag - Naturally !
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