N register and the UK
Joined: Oct 2002
Aviation Qualifications: PPL
Posts: 8,209
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From: London UK
I used to skydive from a Ukrainian-registered aircraft based here in the UK (Let 410 as it happens). It had Ukrainian pilots and (I believe) engineer. It was here for years. The Let 410 type is unknown to the CAA, it was never offered for certification here. Nobody from the Ukrainian oversight, of course, ever turned up, nor from the CAA (in contrast to at my flying club on lighter aircraft). All the manuals and documentation were in Cyrillic anyway. So I guess foreign-registered aircraft based here are effectively unregulated.
One wonders in the Sala case how a chartering passenger would even know - the registration of the Malibu N264DB was applied such that the "N" bit was on the lower part of the passenger entrance, which hinges down to form the steps into the aircraft, so the passenger being taken by the pilot out to the prepared aircraft, even if informed about aircraft markings, would never even see where it was registered.
One wonders in the Sala case how a chartering passenger would even know - the registration of the Malibu N264DB was applied such that the "N" bit was on the lower part of the passenger entrance, which hinges down to form the steps into the aircraft, so the passenger being taken by the pilot out to the prepared aircraft, even if informed about aircraft markings, would never even see where it was registered.
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2016
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From: S.E.Asia
That would no doubt be the one that was based at Sibson. It has always struck me as strange that parachute aircraft operations are loosely regulated. I understand that most of the deceased pilots hours were on paradropping despite only holding a PPL.
Last edited by Mike Flynn; 29th October 2021 at 08:33.
Joined: Apr 2008
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From: Lancashire
"Fine. I am delighted that you maintain it legally, of course. Why do you keep it on the N register, if it is kept here in the UK? If the US system is so much better, as others have suggested, why not agitate for a change in our rules? I have no doubt that many N register owners and operators act sensibly ,and legally; it does seem however that some clearly are less rigorous, let's say."
Well, the aircraft isn't owned by me, it's a non equity share. The aircraft was purchased on the N reg and I don't suppose there has been a reason for the owner to change it. The aircraft is maintained by an FAA engineer based at a UK maintenance company, the same guys that look after G reg aircraft. Now there might be cowboys out there but that doesn't mean everyone flying an N reg is disregarding the rules nor does it make all G reg pilots whiter than white.
Well, the aircraft isn't owned by me, it's a non equity share. The aircraft was purchased on the N reg and I don't suppose there has been a reason for the owner to change it. The aircraft is maintained by an FAA engineer based at a UK maintenance company, the same guys that look after G reg aircraft. Now there might be cowboys out there but that doesn't mean everyone flying an N reg is disregarding the rules nor does it make all G reg pilots whiter than white.
Joined: Jan 2008
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From: Uxbridge
My understanding of non-equity is that it's just rental with a higher yearly or monthly "membership" fee, making it not allowed for N reg. I'd need solid references to prove this understanding is wrong, as I know at least one operator who tried it and was told to stop.
Joined: Jun 2003
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From: EuroGA.org
Mike Flynn - you surprise me. What happened to your N-reg A36 which was permanently based in the UK? This is quite a "change of mind" on your part 
Last edited by IO540; 29th October 2021 at 09:45.
Avoid imitations
Joined: Nov 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
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From: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
"Registration and pilot licensing apart, how many non-AOC, N reg aircraft (such as the one in question) are maintained to CAA/EASA public transport standards?"
Why would a non-AOC aircraft of any registry be maintained to any XAA public transport standard? Unless for renting to an AOC holder?
Why would a non-AOC aircraft of any registry be maintained to any XAA public transport standard? Unless for renting to an AOC holder?
Joined: Oct 2017
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From: Bressuire
My understanding of non-equity is that it's just rental with a higher yearly or monthly "membership" fee, making it not allowed for N reg.
Similarly the registration regulations of the UK CAA recognizes 'beneficial owners' who can be registered with them but who not hold any equity. Until recently the number of registered owners' was limited to a maximum of 20 but this limit has been removed. It is very common in the UK for an outright aircraft owner to offer beneficial shares for which a returnable lump sum is paid as security. Rental charges cannot be charged but the running costs at a fixed hourly figure, the figure doesn't have to be fixed, is common.
Joined: Oct 2007
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From: Moray,Scotland,U.K.
"When you lease a flat or a house then you do not own it someone else does. But, you have bought the right to use it say, for 99 years or just one year and you will be the beneficial owner."
Very different from renting the house or flat, which is common.
I have been a member of an equity share Group for over 30 years. Each member has liability for unexpected expenses not covered by funds. The limit on number of members was (is?) 20.
The equity Group's aircraft might be leased.
The non-equity shareholder has just his prepaid "rental" at stake.
Very different from renting the house or flat, which is common.
I have been a member of an equity share Group for over 30 years. Each member has liability for unexpected expenses not covered by funds. The limit on number of members was (is?) 20.
The equity Group's aircraft might be leased.
The non-equity shareholder has just his prepaid "rental" at stake.
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2016
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From: S.E.Asia
I like the IO540 and confess to owning a PA32 powered by one in the USA and Australia.
Joined: Dec 2008
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From: York
Quote:
Originally Posted by IO540
Mike Flynn - you surprise me. What happened to your N-reg A36 which was permanently based in the UK? This is quite a "change of mind" on your part
It certainly is as I have owned a number of aircraft over the years but have never had an N reg in the UK let alone a Bonanza.😀👍.
I like the IO540 and confess to owning a PA32 powered by one in the USA and Australia.
That's funny.....
Originally Posted by IO540
Mike Flynn - you surprise me. What happened to your N-reg A36 which was permanently based in the UK? This is quite a "change of mind" on your part
It certainly is as I have owned a number of aircraft over the years but have never had an N reg in the UK let alone a Bonanza.😀👍.
I like the IO540 and confess to owning a PA32 powered by one in the USA and Australia.
That's funny.....
Joined: Oct 2017
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From: Bressuire
The returnable lump sum is considered as a share in the aircraft thus making it an equity group, not non-equity.
This difference only matters, other than your money of course, if the aircraft is not maintained according to commercial use regulations when it can be rented out. If the aircraft is maintained only for private use it cannot therefore be rented for hire and reward and so you must hold a percentage of the value (equity) or a beneficial share to use it.
Last edited by Fl1ingfrog; 30th October 2021 at 10:40.
Joined: May 2000
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From: On top of the world
Anyone like to share their thoughts on why the same rules that apply to foreign registered cars used in the UK can't be applied to aircraft ?
As a UK citizen, if I import a foreign reg car, I can only use it for a maximum of 12 months (or in many cases 6) before I must reregister it here.
If it works for motor vehicles, why not aircraft ?
As a UK citizen, if I import a foreign reg car, I can only use it for a maximum of 12 months (or in many cases 6) before I must reregister it here.
If it works for motor vehicles, why not aircraft ?
Joined: Oct 2002
Aviation Qualifications: PPL
Posts: 8,209
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From: London UK
Anyone like to share their thoughts on why the same rules that apply to foreign registered cars used in the UK can't be applied to aircraft ?
As a UK citizen, if I import a foreign reg car, I can only use it for a maximum of 12 months (or in many cases 6) before I must reregister it here.
If it works for motor vehicles, why not aircraft ?
As a UK citizen, if I import a foreign reg car, I can only use it for a maximum of 12 months (or in many cases 6) before I must reregister it here.
If it works for motor vehicles, why not aircraft ?
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 94
Likes: 6
From: UK
Joined: Dec 2005
Aviation Qualifications: PPL
Posts: 491
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From: West Sussex, England
If only you could read afresh what you guys post here !
It looks like a bunch of trouble making old women prattling on.
Leave the bloke alone - and what does it matter if a few folk stay legal using the N register, so what. ?
You of course have never had a minor prang, and if so have always written fulsomely to every agency, inc. the CAA and the LAA and your local Rag - Naturally !
It looks like a bunch of trouble making old women prattling on.
Leave the bloke alone - and what does it matter if a few folk stay legal using the N register, so what. ?
You of course have never had a minor prang, and if so have always written fulsomely to every agency, inc. the CAA and the LAA and your local Rag - Naturally !