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N register and the UK

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N register and the UK

Old 26th Oct 2021, 07:03
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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Does not the UK authority have the ability to surveil maintenance and licensing of N registered aircraft?
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Old 26th Oct 2021, 11:40
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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No, but the UK can obviously ground an aeroplane or refuse it from it's airspace. Should the UK CAA have any concerns about an aircraft then normal protocol would be to report this to the NAA responsible for its oversight. The FAA have staff based at the American Embassy in London and cover the whole of Europe. I understand that they are active in inspecting 'N' aircraft and operators when necessary.
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Old 26th Oct 2021, 12:50
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Big Pistons Forever View Post
An excellent question. The UK could have the same accident record with a much more practical and fit for purpose regulatory regime,
Beat me to it: the reply I would have made verbatim!
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Old 26th Oct 2021, 14:25
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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"I fly an N reg privately and it is maintained to the FAA rules and is perfectly legal. I fly VFR only on my CAA ATPL / SEP rating." (by C172 navigator)

Fine. I am delighted that you maintain it legally, of course. Why do you keep it on the N register, if it is kept here in the UK? If the US system is so much better, as others have suggested, why not agitate for a change in our rules? I have no doubt that many N register owners and operators act sensibly ,and legally; it does seem however that some clearly are less rigorous, let's say.

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Old 26th Oct 2021, 14:31
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My understanding is that one reason is because it allows IFR flight on an FAA license and the FAA IR is much easier to obtain than a UK PPL IR.
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Old 26th Oct 2021, 14:40
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by biscuit74 View Post
"I fly an N reg privately and it is maintained to the FAA rules and is perfectly legal. I fly VFR only on my CAA ATPL / SEP rating." (by C172 navigator)

Fine. I am delighted that you maintain it legally, of course. Why do you keep it on the N register, if it is kept here in the UK? If the US system is so much better, as others have suggested, why not agitate for a change in our rules? I have no doubt that many N register owners and operators act sensibly ,and legally; it does seem however that some clearly are less rigorous, let's say.
But surely you could make exactly the same allegation against people with aircraft on the G, or for that matter any other register?
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Old 26th Oct 2021, 15:27
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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I don't believe N reg aircraft are any more or less safe than those on a G reg. I do know of one aircraft put onto 'N' due to wing spar inspection requirements in the UK.
The vast majority of all owner/pilots on any reg are completely above board, but I do think the 'N' reg in the UK using a company in Delaware/Norfolk can be used as smoke and mirrors for the bent charter business, which costs professional companies and decreases safety. All this crap about "I rent the Aircraft out and the renter provides the pilot (who I recommend) is one way of circumventing the rules and should/must be stopped.
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Old 26th Oct 2021, 21:05
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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Talking

Originally Posted by Mike Flynn View Post
I suspect I am going to get some flak for asking this question.

In view of the Sala case is it time the CAA clamped down on UK based N registered aircraft operations by non resident and non American pilots ?

The majority of these are in the upper echelons of private light aircraft operations. Most countries in the world impose a time limit on how long a foreign based aircraft can operate internally. Many are pilots flying on a piggyback US licence.

Apart from pilot licensing and maintenance these aircraft are usually operating behind trusts therefore disguising the beneficial owners.

I have written to my MP to raise this matter in the Commons.
I can't wait see bow the Transport minister who is a PPL operating an N reg aircraft in the Uk will respond......
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Old 27th Oct 2021, 05:45
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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From the following accident report I can see the N issue relevance, folk operating without any oversight at all, that's not to say there are not those who play with a straight bat. One bad penny can stuff it for all.

https://assets.publishing.service.go...-LFB_10-12.pdf
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Old 27th Oct 2021, 11:19
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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This kind of tragic report can be found in the UK AAIB records over and over again. It reflects, no doubt in my mind, the extent to which humans will take risk and be careless in doing so. The pilot's car door was left open: the keys left in the ignition and likely still switched to on, the very short number of minutes after parking before the helicopter was started, the engine could not have been warmed after start in the very few following minutes before the take off into atrocious weather. The pilot was very experienced, he had being flying various helicopters over 28 years but there is no evidence of formal training at night or in IMC. No mechanical failure was found. The report makes the point that the journey home in his car was only 30 minutes.

The above has NOTHING to do with the country of registration but rather the personality of the individual. Sadly the same disdain for the rules and safety is replicated throughout the UK by UK licenced pilots flying UK registered aeroplanes within UK airspace. This is an issue that HF education and TEM training is attempting to tackle but, in GA at least, it is an uphill battle within the current aviation establishment. They just don't get it.

Last edited by Fl1ingfrog; 27th Oct 2021 at 11:46.
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Old 27th Oct 2021, 13:31
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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It is very sad that there are people around who do not observe the rules or even use common sense. The aircraft they fly is irrelevant because they would manage the same result in anything.

I sit on the Local Airspace Infringement Committee and am exasperated that well qualified and respected flying instructors infringe airspace because they don't/won't use moving map devices and then become so busy teaching their student and (presumably) looking out for other aircraft that they lose geographic awareness.
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Old 27th Oct 2021, 17:34
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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"Fine. I am delighted that you maintain it legally, of course. Why do you keep it on the N register, if it is kept here in the UK? If the US system is so much better, as others have suggested, why not agitate for a change in our rules? I have no doubt that many N register owners and operators act sensibly ,and legally; it does seem however that some clearly are less rigorous, let's say."

Well, the aircraft isn't owned by me, it's a non equity share. The aircraft was purchased on the N reg and I don't suppose there has been a reason for the owner to change it. The aircraft is maintained by an FAA engineer based at a UK maintenance company, the same guys that look after G reg aircraft. Now there might be cowboys out there but that doesn't mean everyone flying an N reg is disregarding the rules nor does it make all G reg pilots whiter than white.

Last edited by C172Navigator; 28th Oct 2021 at 10:15.
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Old 27th Oct 2021, 19:46
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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"I sit on the Local Airspace Infringement Committee and am exasperated that well qualified and respected flying instructors infringe airspace because they don't/won't use moving map devices and then become so busy teaching their student and (presumably) looking out for other aircraft that they lose geographic awareness."
I can remember when the UK CAA and Safety Organisations were warning against using moving maps or any GPS aid in UK Airspace. Are the students allowed to use these devices? If not, the instructors may be trying not to set a bad example to the students.
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Old 27th Oct 2021, 21:01
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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Me too 'Maoraigh1'. In fact, given that for the COP26 shambles GPS jamming is planned all over the Central Belt, it seems that still isn't wanted. Mind you, that is probably 'left hand - right hand' as ever !

'C172Navigator' -Thanks for that. We in the UK do seem to be an oddity in allowing long term use of aircraft here on someone else's register.
I am sure there are plenty well maintained aircraft around, and because of this oddity we do have FAA rated engineers. There are cowboys of all sorts, I agree, at all levels but it does seem that the N registration route helps or at least doesn't put any clear obstacles in the way of those who want to do things on the cheap, especially in a pseudo-commercial sense. That does none of us any good - as an airline pilot no doubt you hold high standards and expect/hope for that from others, as I do, and as my wife, also a commercial pilot does.
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Old 28th Oct 2021, 01:18
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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N registration route helps or at least doesn't put any clear obstacles in the way of those who want to do things on the cheap..
I would suggest wanting to avoid the no value added, unnecessary, or completely inappropriate regulatory requirements that are so prevalent in the UK system doesn't mean you are cheap, just sensible. Maintaining an airplane to a safe standard and maintaining the appropriate level of flying skills is not registry dependent it is a personal choice.
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Old 28th Oct 2021, 18:20
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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We in the UK do seem to be an oddity in allowing long term use of aircraft here on someone else's register.
Nonsense. Most (all afaik despite the best/worst efforts of some) countries in Europe allow it too. it's very hard not to, given ICAO rules - you have to be able to fly an XXX-registered aircraft with an XXX-issued license, otherwise life would be fairly tricky for the airlines.
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Old 28th Oct 2021, 18:35
  #37 (permalink)  

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Registration and pilot licensing apart, how many non-AOC, N reg aircraft (such as the one in question) are maintained to CAA/EASA public transport standards?

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Old 28th Oct 2021, 21:31
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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Aircraft registered to the FAA (N reg) are maintained in accordance with the FAA regulations as appropriate.
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Old 28th Oct 2021, 21:32
  #39 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by n5296s View Post
Nonsense. Most (all afaik despite the best/worst efforts of some) countries in Europe allow it too. it's very hard not to, given ICAO rules - you have to be able to fly an XXX-registered aircraft with an XXX-issued license, otherwise life would be fairly tricky for the airlines.
There is a big difference between visiting aircraft and those based here. We are talking about US registered aircraft owned and operated in the UK by non US citizens.
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Old 28th Oct 2021, 21:39
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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"Registration and pilot licensing apart, how many non-AOC, N reg aircraft (such as the one in question) are maintained to CAA/EASA public transport standards?"
Why would a non-AOC aircraft of any registry be maintained to any XAA public transport standard? Unless for renting to an AOC holder?


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