Pilot Aware or SkyEcho?
Thread Starter
Joined: Sep 2004
Aviation Qualifications: PPL
Posts: 883
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From: Berkshire, UK
Pilot Aware or SkyEcho?
Situation is 3 axis microlight without transponder but with SkyDemon on tablet in cockpit. Would I be better getting a PilotAware or SkyEcho to claim the Electronic Conspicuity Rebate currently on offer?
Any why?
My immediate thought is that whichever one tells me the most about aircraft coming towards me would be the best choice although that one is not obvious from a quick read of the product's blurb on the websites.
Do either of the devices do more to inform OTHER aircraft of MY position but give me less to think about?
I did see the Pilotaware presentation but the style and content didn't hold my attention and I came away knowing less than before.................
Thanks,
Rans6...................................
Any why?
My immediate thought is that whichever one tells me the most about aircraft coming towards me would be the best choice although that one is not obvious from a quick read of the product's blurb on the websites.
Do either of the devices do more to inform OTHER aircraft of MY position but give me less to think about?
I did see the Pilotaware presentation but the style and content didn't hold my attention and I came away knowing less than before.................
Thanks,
Rans6...................................
Joined: Dec 2005
Aviation Qualifications: PPL
Posts: 491
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From: West Sussex, England
I am ordering SE2 on the basis that ADSB is growing and promoted by our CAA. The alternative proprietry systems, cuŕrently popular, could soon be overtaken by this pan uk band. The principal other attraction is that se2 is self contained and can be put in the best and most convenint place on board. WiFi will tell my largish screen mobile on free fms where adsb planes are. That too is stand alone. Thus no wires, panel mods etc. Must make sense as we should all expect to be required to use adsb out in the nextcouple of years.
Joined: Aug 2015
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From: The Pits
I have both because:
SE2 will not see other aircraft that have only PilotAware (P3i) and
PilotAware does not transmit ADSB-out, SE2 does.
I fly with PilotAware displaying traffic on the tablet because it shows other aircraft transmitting P3i, ADSB and, with some limitations, Flarm via the OGN ground stations.
SE2 will be making me more conspicuous by transmitting ADSB-out.
PilotAware does seem to show more targets than SE2 where I operate but there's little substitute for looking out - the one that gets you probably will not have either PA or SE2!
I'm sure others will have different opinions and experiences...
SE2 will not see other aircraft that have only PilotAware (P3i) and
PilotAware does not transmit ADSB-out, SE2 does.
I fly with PilotAware displaying traffic on the tablet because it shows other aircraft transmitting P3i, ADSB and, with some limitations, Flarm via the OGN ground stations.
SE2 will be making me more conspicuous by transmitting ADSB-out.
PilotAware does seem to show more targets than SE2 where I operate but there's little substitute for looking out - the one that gets you probably will not have either PA or SE2!
I'm sure others will have different opinions and experiences...
Joined: Jul 2014
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From: Scotland
Not sure if the rest of the BoB Memorial Flight and other RAF aircraft still have PowerFLARM.
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From: UK
I see it this way.
- SkyEcho makes it easier for ATC to see me
- PilotAware makes it easier for me to see other aircraft.
So, the fundamental question is which is most important to me? Making it possible to prosecute me should I ever infringe, or making it possible for me to see other traffic and avoid a collision.
Of course, in a perfect world, I can see everybody else, they can see me, and I don't infringe. In which case PAW, separate ADSB-out, and traffic feed to something like eVFR or Skydemon is the perfect solution - pretty much as Cole Burner is doing, except that he's just using the SE2 as his ADSB-out.
(And actually yes, I mostly fly aeroplanes with ADSB-out AND PAW).
G
- SkyEcho makes it easier for ATC to see me
- PilotAware makes it easier for me to see other aircraft.
So, the fundamental question is which is most important to me? Making it possible to prosecute me should I ever infringe, or making it possible for me to see other traffic and avoid a collision.
Of course, in a perfect world, I can see everybody else, they can see me, and I don't infringe. In which case PAW, separate ADSB-out, and traffic feed to something like eVFR or Skydemon is the perfect solution - pretty much as Cole Burner is doing, except that he's just using the SE2 as his ADSB-out.
(And actually yes, I mostly fly aeroplanes with ADSB-out AND PAW).
G
Joined: Apr 1999
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From: In front of a computer
SkyEcho makes it easier for ATC to see me
Next time you're are flying try asking a NATS contoller if they can give you an ADSB check...........
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Joined: Feb 2000
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From: UK
Not long ago I got a transponder check on my mode-S for professional purposes, but I take your point. NATS screens see my code, altitude (which could be C, S, or ADS-B), and my position: but *how* they got my position is probably transparent to them.
It is I *think* being recorded somewhere however, which can then be used for prosecutions? And, admittedly not quite what I said, both SE2 and PAW will see ADSB-out.
G
It is I *think* being recorded somewhere however, which can then be used for prosecutions? And, admittedly not quite what I said, both SE2 and PAW will see ADSB-out.
G
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 350
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From: Scotland
Although I am a great fan of PowerFLARM, and have had it for several years, I agree that the best solution atm is SE2 and PAW, displayed on Skydemon or similar and with audio alerts.
(unless you are in an area with lots of gliders or outwith an area covered by the OGN-R network)
(unless you are in an area with lots of gliders or outwith an area covered by the OGN-R network)
Joined: Sep 2004
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From: Down at the sharp pointy end, where all the weather is made.
We've had ADS-B 'out' for a couple of years now using a GTX335. We needed a replacement transponder and whilst it would have been nice to support Trig, I've used their units in other aircraft and find them really fiddly, compared with the Garmin.
I find the ADS-B 'out' function really great for tracking students and hirers so as to get the next flight ready against their imminent arrival.
For ADS-B 'in' I'd initially thought of replacing the GTX335 with a GTX345 and displaying the 'in' on a new AERA 660 to replace our ageing Skymap IIIC. That seemed a shocking waste of money so I'm now exploring a GDL50R (the internally mounted hard-wired version of the GDL50 portable) into a panel-mount AERA 660. The airGizmos mount looks good, with the bare wire Garmin multi connector.
I have 3 criteria
1. NO LOOSE WIRES, units obscuring the view out or of the instruments or random tablets getting in the way.
2. Something that's going to work for low-hours students and hirers as well as our technophobe members who hire the aircraft. Some of them think that Skydemon is the latest Tom Hanks movie - a sequel to the Da Vinchi Code.
3. Cost effective.
What I'd REALLY like is to be able to feed Mode 'S' in to the AERA 660 to give the same traffic functionality as Garmin promise with the GDL50R and ADS-B 'in'. Hardly anyone round here has ADS-B 'out' but most now have 'S'.
TOO
I find the ADS-B 'out' function really great for tracking students and hirers so as to get the next flight ready against their imminent arrival.
For ADS-B 'in' I'd initially thought of replacing the GTX335 with a GTX345 and displaying the 'in' on a new AERA 660 to replace our ageing Skymap IIIC. That seemed a shocking waste of money so I'm now exploring a GDL50R (the internally mounted hard-wired version of the GDL50 portable) into a panel-mount AERA 660. The airGizmos mount looks good, with the bare wire Garmin multi connector.
I have 3 criteria
1. NO LOOSE WIRES, units obscuring the view out or of the instruments or random tablets getting in the way.
2. Something that's going to work for low-hours students and hirers as well as our technophobe members who hire the aircraft. Some of them think that Skydemon is the latest Tom Hanks movie - a sequel to the Da Vinchi Code.
3. Cost effective.
What I'd REALLY like is to be able to feed Mode 'S' in to the AERA 660 to give the same traffic functionality as Garmin promise with the GDL50R and ADS-B 'in'. Hardly anyone round here has ADS-B 'out' but most now have 'S'.
TOO
Joined: Oct 2004
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From: California
Joined: Nov 2005
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From: UK
RANS6ANDREW a good question. I think a PAW and TRIG transponder with ADS-B would be the answer. That would give you mode C/S ADS-B and Flarm, with OGN ground station support, note a Flarm reciever can be connected directly into a PAW but costs. With Trig transponders the GPS out of the PAW can be legally input for the ADS-B out. The PAW can be connect into the audio for traffic and feed a stand alone display and wifi to the IPAD with SkyDemon at the same time. The PAW and TRG would be the best and give you max awareness and conspicuousness. Plus I think you may be able to get a rebate for the TRIG.
Joined: Jan 2020
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From: Melbourne
SE2 is both adsb in and out. No need for 2nd device such as Stratux/Stratus.. However adsb technology is still not 100% reliable, I've seen anomalies, raim outages, duplicate ghosta, disapearring traffic, etc.., yet it's nother tool in the box to have..
Joined: Nov 2005
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From: UK
AS a further point I believe I am correct that to detect both C/S transponders requires ground support in the form of a ground radar triggering the transponder to transmit. ADS-B from technical spec I think is the only standalone system with no ground support needed. I think if starting from nothing the cheapest is PAW see everything with ground support for FLARM and mode S bearing plus a transponder with ADS-B out covers all bases. An SE2 if a transponder is already fitted with no ADS-B. What do you all think?
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 350
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From: Scotland
AS a further point I believe I am correct that to detect both C/S transponders requires ground support in the form of a ground radar triggering the transponder to transmit. ADS-B from technical spec I think is the only standalone system with no ground support needed. I think if starting from nothing the cheapest is PAW see everything with ground support for FLARM and mode S bearing plus a transponder with ADS-B out covers all bases. An SE2 if a transponder is already fitted with no ADS-B. What do you all think?
Aside from that, unless you have a transponder capable of ADS-B out, I agree with you, As I said before:
"Although I am a great fan of PowerFLARM, and have had it for several years, I agree that the best solution atm is SE2 and PAW, displayed on Skydemon or similar and with audio alerts.
(unless you are in an area with lots of gliders or outwith an area covered by the OGN-R network)"
I have recently purchased SE2 and initial tests in my mainly steel tube and fabric aircraft have indicated that it is not picked up by the local OGN-R (ATOM) ground stations as well as either PAW or PowerFLARM transmissions. Imho, it would be better if SE2 had an external antenna connection (external to the set, not necessarily to the aircraft). However, I am still experimenting with the position of SE2 in the cockpit. In any event, the ADS-B out transmissions might be picked up fine by other aircraft in the air, which is the whole point!
Sold on SE2/SkyDemon/Bluetooth
Joined: Oct 2020
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From: Locked Down but not Out
I have fitted a PilotAware and have a its GPS connected to a Trig TT21 to give ADSB out, This gives a fair coverage of modes, but lacking the SIL 1 which I believe is needed to generate a TCAS instruction to airliners, Ishall address this by fitting a suitable GPS source (probably a TN71)
Joined: Apr 1999
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From: In front of a computer
Hi Propwash
No need to do that for two reasons...
1 Commercial air transport uses your Trig transponder for TCAS avoidance
2 Almost none of these airliners use ADSB in for collision avoidance
Your current set up covers all the main scenarios today.
No need to do that for two reasons...
1 Commercial air transport uses your Trig transponder for TCAS avoidance
2 Almost none of these airliners use ADSB in for collision avoidance
Your current set up covers all the main scenarios today.