NPPL (M) License route?
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NPPL (M) License route?
Hi folks,
Well I turned 50 this year and in the new year (2020) I intend to start training for my NPPL (M). For me it's the easiest/quickest/cheapest way into the kind of flying I think I might most enjoy; low key fun. I'll go for fix wing microlight probably at Perth as I live in Edinburgh.
At Perth the fix wing NPPL (M) training is in the Eurostar SL or the EV97 Eurostar. Amazing microlights I'm sure. However, after I gain my license I'm not sure I'll fly microlights of this calibre as I don't really want to join a syndicate and I can't afford to buy anything in this league by myself.
Is there any merit in having say 15 lessons or so in the Eurostar SL or the EV97 Eurostar then having the remaining required lessons (probably another 30 in my case!) in a microlight I have bought (assuming the trainers are ok with this)? This might make sense as It would mean I would have x amount of lessons in the microlight I intend to fly for the next x years. I'm assuming this would decrease the costs of lessons?
Incidently I think 10k is the highest I could go for micro. Any suggestions? I would like very forgiving and robust machine!
Any and all thoughts welcome.
Well I turned 50 this year and in the new year (2020) I intend to start training for my NPPL (M). For me it's the easiest/quickest/cheapest way into the kind of flying I think I might most enjoy; low key fun. I'll go for fix wing microlight probably at Perth as I live in Edinburgh.
At Perth the fix wing NPPL (M) training is in the Eurostar SL or the EV97 Eurostar. Amazing microlights I'm sure. However, after I gain my license I'm not sure I'll fly microlights of this calibre as I don't really want to join a syndicate and I can't afford to buy anything in this league by myself.
Is there any merit in having say 15 lessons or so in the Eurostar SL or the EV97 Eurostar then having the remaining required lessons (probably another 30 in my case!) in a microlight I have bought (assuming the trainers are ok with this)? This might make sense as It would mean I would have x amount of lessons in the microlight I intend to fly for the next x years. I'm assuming this would decrease the costs of lessons?
Incidently I think 10k is the highest I could go for micro. Any suggestions? I would like very forgiving and robust machine!
Any and all thoughts welcome.
There's nothing to prevent you from changing aircraft part way through but the change will set you back a bit as you 'convert' to the other type.
The hourly rate for the instructor may not be much less than the rate in their aircraft and with the costs on top for your own machine may work out more expensive.
If you qualify in a Eurostar you'll need some of this training anyway as you convert to your own as it will handle differently.
I don't think there's a clear answer as both ways are fine and unless you know how many hours you'll neeed for your licence and conversion then it's hard to work out the costs.
The hourly rate for the instructor may not be much less than the rate in their aircraft and with the costs on top for your own machine may work out more expensive.
If you qualify in a Eurostar you'll need some of this training anyway as you convert to your own as it will handle differently.
I don't think there's a clear answer as both ways are fine and unless you know how many hours you'll neeed for your licence and conversion then it's hard to work out the costs.
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Before you buy, you might want to test fly the type and the individual aircraft. Easier with a license. Also I'd not underestimate the challenges that come with owning and maintaining an aircraft. So not having to acquire a license in parallel might be as beneficial as gaining some experience with somebody elses aircraft first.
Personally I would advocate joining a syndicate anyhow - if only for a couple of years, as you'll learn so much from "those who have gone before", and then after a couple of years, if sole ownership is still your aspiration, you'll be massively better placed to pursue it intelligently.
I've been flying for 30 years, both SEP and microlights (both flavours) and have universally found the syndicate experience much more satisfying for me than sole ownership.
G
I've been flying for 30 years, both SEP and microlights (both flavours) and have universally found the syndicate experience much more satisfying for me than sole ownership.
G
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Also if you are not the type who just drops off the ship at the dockyard if something is to do - which seems likely given your budget - some comrades-in-arms might be welcome.
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Hi Stalled Haggis, and welcome to pprune!
You raise a few questions which are not uncommon.
There are only three schools in Scotland which teach NPPL (M) on three-axis aircraft. Perth uses the Eurostar, as you have already found out, Keith at Balado (which you'd drive past on the way to Perth from Edinburgh?) has a brand new Eurostar, a brand new C42 and a brand new Skyranger. And we at Strathaven have a couple of C42s.
There used to be limits on what could be hired and used for training and how many could be in a syndicate. Training used to have to be on factory-built microlights, but again, there are now exceptions. So while things have changed a little, flying lessons are mainly on C42s and Eurostars.
So, if you are learning, it will be a high wing (C42) or low wing (Eurostar). If you have a preference for which type you might want to own in the future (high wing Skyrangers are very popular as first aircraft) then you might want to start on a C42.
The second is training on your own aircraft. To be frank, we are never really keen. First, we like to know the aircraft - we've been around for so long that we think we have seen everything that can go wrong, and then we discover something new! And we refuse to touch anything unless its got a Rotax 912 engine. And as a solo student, we are responsible for you even though we are not in the aircraft.
To be really frank, as a student, you'll not have a clue what you are buying!
There are also economic arguments. You'll be paying insurance, hangarage, fuel, maintenance etc for your aircraft, which will add to your hourly rate after paying the instructor. But for the instructor, they will be paying (or should be accounting for) insurance, hangarage, maintenance etc - but not fuel - for the school aircraft which will be sitting idle while you are in your own aircraft! So lose/lose for both parties!
Finally, your budget. 10k. You'll not get a decent three-axis microlight with a Rotax 9 series engine for less than 20k. And trust me, you'll not want a two-stroke one. Or a Jabiru! We now refuse to have anything other than Rotax 9 series powered aircraft based here at Strathaven, except in special circumstances. We want to save people from themselves!
But if you look at a decent Skyranger, perhaps with older-style Dacron wing fabric with a few years left in it, as one of three members in a syndicate, then you'll meet your budget.
Finally, there's the question of hangarage. It is in pretty short supply in central Scotland! I am not sure if there is any at Perth or Balado (I know Balado has a planning application in for 3 hangars). We are getting near our capacity here at Strathaven, Cumbernauld is full (and charges £6,000 a year + VAT!).
So you might want to answer the question low wing/high wing first, then who trains on it and then where there might be space to hangar it.
Or Perth hire out one of their Eurostars - so you can train and fly the same aircraft. And use that 10k to pay off some of the mortgage!
Learning to fly is a serious investment in time, let alone money. So well done for coming here and asking some questions. You should then use that info to ask questions at any schools you might consider too.
You raise a few questions which are not uncommon.
There are only three schools in Scotland which teach NPPL (M) on three-axis aircraft. Perth uses the Eurostar, as you have already found out, Keith at Balado (which you'd drive past on the way to Perth from Edinburgh?) has a brand new Eurostar, a brand new C42 and a brand new Skyranger. And we at Strathaven have a couple of C42s.
There used to be limits on what could be hired and used for training and how many could be in a syndicate. Training used to have to be on factory-built microlights, but again, there are now exceptions. So while things have changed a little, flying lessons are mainly on C42s and Eurostars.
So, if you are learning, it will be a high wing (C42) or low wing (Eurostar). If you have a preference for which type you might want to own in the future (high wing Skyrangers are very popular as first aircraft) then you might want to start on a C42.
The second is training on your own aircraft. To be frank, we are never really keen. First, we like to know the aircraft - we've been around for so long that we think we have seen everything that can go wrong, and then we discover something new! And we refuse to touch anything unless its got a Rotax 912 engine. And as a solo student, we are responsible for you even though we are not in the aircraft.
To be really frank, as a student, you'll not have a clue what you are buying!
There are also economic arguments. You'll be paying insurance, hangarage, fuel, maintenance etc for your aircraft, which will add to your hourly rate after paying the instructor. But for the instructor, they will be paying (or should be accounting for) insurance, hangarage, maintenance etc - but not fuel - for the school aircraft which will be sitting idle while you are in your own aircraft! So lose/lose for both parties!
Finally, your budget. 10k. You'll not get a decent three-axis microlight with a Rotax 9 series engine for less than 20k. And trust me, you'll not want a two-stroke one. Or a Jabiru! We now refuse to have anything other than Rotax 9 series powered aircraft based here at Strathaven, except in special circumstances. We want to save people from themselves!
But if you look at a decent Skyranger, perhaps with older-style Dacron wing fabric with a few years left in it, as one of three members in a syndicate, then you'll meet your budget.
Finally, there's the question of hangarage. It is in pretty short supply in central Scotland! I am not sure if there is any at Perth or Balado (I know Balado has a planning application in for 3 hangars). We are getting near our capacity here at Strathaven, Cumbernauld is full (and charges £6,000 a year + VAT!).
So you might want to answer the question low wing/high wing first, then who trains on it and then where there might be space to hangar it.
Or Perth hire out one of their Eurostars - so you can train and fly the same aircraft. And use that 10k to pay off some of the mortgage!
Learning to fly is a serious investment in time, let alone money. So well done for coming here and asking some questions. You should then use that info to ask questions at any schools you might consider too.
you'll not want a two-stroke one.
I'd quite happily have a 582 engined X'Air or Sky Ranger, which should be purchaseable well below £20k (below £10k for the X'Air). Admittedly some configurations work better than others, but they're all perfectly good aeroplanes.
On the other hand, a Jabiru put me in a hedge once, and I've had a few others fail on me less catastrophically so I'm rather in agreement on that.
G
Some reserves in the side:
* indeed, do not train on your own plane. As explained, it is economically a loose/loose formula - except perhaps if you can find a willing free-lance instructor; plus training tends to be harder on a plane than you want on your own pride and beauty; especially on the landing gear and on the engine.
* there are a couple of Jabiru engines on my homefield, and they have no more trouble than others; but they do seem to require a lot of maintenance, ISTR setting the valve clearances every 50 hours or so, for one example. Also, I hear rumours that the 6-cylinder J3300 are more reliable than the smaller J2200.
* nothing wrong with two-stroke engines indeed but they handle differently. No long warm-up at idle, for example: they depend on fuel flow for lubrication. Start engine, 1-2-3 and off into the skies you go! There are however some fields that refuse them, at least here in BE, in an effort to appear "eco-friendly" - quite useless imho.
* generally speaking, low wingers are more "sporty", making them require more precise handling; it should be easy to go back from training on such a plane to a less demanding (but also less performant) high-winger.
* indeed, do not train on your own plane. As explained, it is economically a loose/loose formula - except perhaps if you can find a willing free-lance instructor; plus training tends to be harder on a plane than you want on your own pride and beauty; especially on the landing gear and on the engine.
* there are a couple of Jabiru engines on my homefield, and they have no more trouble than others; but they do seem to require a lot of maintenance, ISTR setting the valve clearances every 50 hours or so, for one example. Also, I hear rumours that the 6-cylinder J3300 are more reliable than the smaller J2200.
* nothing wrong with two-stroke engines indeed but they handle differently. No long warm-up at idle, for example: they depend on fuel flow for lubrication. Start engine, 1-2-3 and off into the skies you go! There are however some fields that refuse them, at least here in BE, in an effort to appear "eco-friendly" - quite useless imho.
* generally speaking, low wingers are more "sporty", making them require more precise handling; it should be easy to go back from training on such a plane to a less demanding (but also less performant) high-winger.
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Nowt wrong with 2 strokes so long as you feed them the correct petrol/oil mix and obey the instructions in the Rotax users handbook. They are basically simple engines with less parts to go wrong, therefore cheaper to maintain. OTOH they do tend to use a tad more fuel than an equivalent 4 stroke.
There are some very good microlights available at affordable prices, for example a good Shadow with a 582 should cost you well under £10k. If you train on a C42 you will need an hour or two with an instructor to do a type conversion because the handling is different, especially on the ground where you have to steer with the heel brakes.
There are some very good microlights available at affordable prices, for example a good Shadow with a 582 should cost you well under £10k. If you train on a C42 you will need an hour or two with an instructor to do a type conversion because the handling is different, especially on the ground where you have to steer with the heel brakes.
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Because other students may be reading this:
In Scotland, you don't want a two-stroke because:
They guzzle the fuel and so you will find your range a bit limited - especially two-up! Fuel just isn't that easy to get in Scotland.
The market for microlights is small in Scotland, and we are a long way away from the populous South. So if you buy a two-stroke, you may find it difficult when you come to sell it to persuade anyone to come up "North", and then drive past that to The Borders, and then on to the central belt and then - even - to Perthshire an d the start of The Highlands!
They need a little more maintenance, such as decoking, and a lot more spark plugs! But you'll save on oil filters!
And they are slower and noisier, so not a favourite at airfields. Yes, most of the flat ground in Scotland has houses on it, or houses about to be built on it. So we have to be very aware of noise issues. The hills and mountains make for a beautiful landscape, though!
ps. As an old-time instructor I don't know all about two-strokes, but I know enough! I don't think we ever agreed on the best oil for a two-stroke, or how often to change the crank on a 582 on a Mainair machine, compared to the Quantum, before the 912 came in and all that became irrelevant.
In Scotland, you don't want a two-stroke because:
They guzzle the fuel and so you will find your range a bit limited - especially two-up! Fuel just isn't that easy to get in Scotland.
The market for microlights is small in Scotland, and we are a long way away from the populous South. So if you buy a two-stroke, you may find it difficult when you come to sell it to persuade anyone to come up "North", and then drive past that to The Borders, and then on to the central belt and then - even - to Perthshire an d the start of The Highlands!
They need a little more maintenance, such as decoking, and a lot more spark plugs! But you'll save on oil filters!
And they are slower and noisier, so not a favourite at airfields. Yes, most of the flat ground in Scotland has houses on it, or houses about to be built on it. So we have to be very aware of noise issues. The hills and mountains make for a beautiful landscape, though!
ps. As an old-time instructor I don't know all about two-strokes, but I know enough! I don't think we ever agreed on the best oil for a two-stroke, or how often to change the crank on a 582 on a Mainair machine, compared to the Quantum, before the 912 came in and all that became irrelevant.
