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Please advise is it legal to change the seat during the flight in a small plane

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Please advise is it legal to change the seat during the flight in a small plane

Old 28th Nov 2019, 18:15
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Jhieminga View Post
Would you care to elaborate on that S-works? In my view, weíve tried to answer the thread starterís question, which is if changing seats is legal. I have refrained from commenting on whether it would be a smart thing to do, as Iíd rather leave that to the wisdom of whoever will need to implement this option.
Are you seriously asking me why I think its a monumentally stupid idea to change seats in a light aircraft in flight?
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Old 29th Nov 2019, 11:18
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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No, I am not. But your post was quite broad in its approach, so I was just wondering who you were adressing. As I wrote the post above it, I was curious what I did wrong.

As for changing seats in flight, I fully agree that it is not a smart thing to do, yet there may be circumstances that could make it a needed option. From that point of view I too was curious about the legality of it. I once swapped seats inside a BE76 while airbourne as that was the only option to complete two profchecks without an intermediate landing. It's a long story, but this was the lesser of two evils so everyone concerned was happy that this best suited our needs. We did this while keeping a qualified person at the controls, at altitude, during level flight and generally kept it as safe as we could. Looking back on it, it all worked out allright but this thread did get me wondering. That's all.
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Old 29th Nov 2019, 11:26
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Jhieminga View Post
No, I am not. But your post was quite broad in its approach, so I was just wondering who you were adressing. As I wrote the post above it, I was curious what I did wrong.

As for changing seats in flight, I fully agree that it is not a smart thing to do, yet there may be circumstances that could make it a needed option. From that point of view I too was curious about the legality of it. I once swapped seats inside a BE76 while airbourne as that was the only option to complete two profchecks without an intermediate landing. It's a long story, but this was the lesser of two evils so everyone concerned was happy that this best suited our needs. We did this while keeping a qualified person at the controls, at altitude, during level flight and generally kept it as safe as we could. Looking back on it, it all worked out allright but this thread did get me wondering. That's all.
You should not be admitting in public to having swapped seats in a light twin during flight to complete an LPC........ As an Examiner I am fully aware the standards required for an LPC and the contents of the test, as are the CAA Examiners that read this forum....... I won't ask how you managed to do the single engine LANDING or the rejected take off.....

I will say it again, swapping seats in a light aircraft in flight is crass stupidity whether you consider there to be a legal loophole or not that permits it.
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Old 30th Nov 2019, 05:58
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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Question was whether it's legal. Answer is 'yes'.

RTQ!
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Old 30th Nov 2019, 19:12
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sam Rutherford View Post
Question was whether it's legal. Answer is 'yes'.

RTQ!
Really? Show me the law.
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Old 30th Nov 2019, 19:47
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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I'm not sure whether you were braver swapping seats or posting the story!!

Assuming the OP is asking a serious question - please don't. Just don't. There's enough risk in GA as it is without choosing to add more.
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Old 30th Nov 2019, 20:46
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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Um.

Rules restrict, so it's not a question of showing where it says that something CAN be done, but a question of showing where it says that something CANNOT be done.

Or, put otherwise: if there is no rule saying you can't, you can...
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Old 30th Nov 2019, 21:32
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sam Rutherford View Post
Um.

Rules restrict, so it's not a question of showing where it says that something CAN be done, but a question of showing where it says that something CANNOT be done.

Or, put otherwise: if there is no rule saying you can't, you can...
In your opinion. Probably wise not to post opinion as fact....... I shall ask again, show me proof that itís legal.
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Old 30th Nov 2019, 23:15
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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Don't be ridiculous.

Which law makes it illegal for passengers to change seats?
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Old 1st Dec 2019, 06:04
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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Um. (again)

That's not how the law works (ask a lawyer if you're unsure), and the question is about legality.

Nowhere does it say I'm not allowed to eat bananas, ergo, I'm allowed to eat bananas.

The lawbooks would be infinitely long if they had to list everything you can do (rather than only those you can't).

So the onus is on you, or the regulator, or the policeman or the headmaster...

...to show a breach of rules. If you/they are not able to do so, no rules have been breached and it's legal.

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Old 1st Dec 2019, 08:56
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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I think it depends where you re talking about. The basis of UK law is that everything is permitted unless, and until, it is specifically banned. This law has propagated to other countries - the USA being a major example. In European law they tend to take the position that evrything is banned unless it is specifically allowed. That is one of the big stumbling blocks to UK integration in the EU - a basic difference in attitude.
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Old 1st Dec 2019, 09:09
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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May I question that? I fly on a Belgian sub-icao licence, and know no interpretation other than what Sam (and others) describe. Just like I am always allowed to fly in class G airspace, for the one and only but very good reason that there is no law or rule to restrict access to it.

As an afterthought: you wouldn't have listened to liars ŗ la Farage, would you?

Last edited by Jan Olieslagers; 1st Dec 2019 at 10:50.
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Old 1st Dec 2019, 12:59
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Whilst not a lawyer, I have spent most of the last 20 years in non-UK Europe.

I agree with Jan that it's exactly the same east of the channel - if it's not against the rules it's okay...
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Old 1st Dec 2019, 14:46
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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Reckless endangerment of an aircraft mean anything? There may not be a law that specifically allows it nor there may be there a law that specifically bans it which was my point. Sam in his usual barrack room lawyer "expert" opinion has stated its legal. He has not shown proof of this, just a louder shout confirming he is correct. I would put forward the counter argument that to do so would be recklessly endangering an aircraft of which their IS a law against.....

Whatever your interpration of the law, I would suggest that to attempt to do so in a alight aircraft is an act of gross stupidity and should something happen that endangered the flight as a result the you would be in pretty hot water. But then some of the posters on this thread live a life sailing close to the wind.......
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Old 1st Dec 2019, 15:12
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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Reckless endangerment of an aircraft
is a typical stop-gap phrase in legalese. It would take a more than average lawyer to convince a judge of the "endangerment" bit and even much more about the "reckless" bit.

But such is not even the point. The original question was a bit ambiguous on its subject matter (was it about "people on board the plane changing from one seat to another" or about "replacing one piece of seat furniture for another" ? ) but that has been dealt with; the original question was however very clearly "is it legal?" and has been duly answered with "none see any indication of it being illegal". QED. Whether it is a good/wise/defendable practice is quite another discussion, you seem partial to it, and that is entirely up to yourself.
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Old 1st Dec 2019, 15:37
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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I've been reading this thread with much interest and have found the differing opinions to be mostly entertaining. The "reckless endangerment of an aircraft" is especially interesting.

Here's a little scenario....I regularly fly my little family of three, over to the coast for the weekend...Mrs Bazz and our 11 year old twin girls (Annie and Sarah). Wifey likes to sit in the rear area with a good book but the girls take turns in the RH seat...Annie enjoys the takeoff phase and is almost always strapped in that seat at the beginning of the 2.5 hr flight...Sarah is almost the polar opposite and wants to be upfront for the approach and landing phase. When the time comes for the swap, if conditions are smooth, Annie slides the seat back, unbuckles and they swap seats. The whole process takes about 30 seconds. I concentrate of flying as smoothly as I can, Wifey is on hand to assist either girl as needed and we have never had a problem. We have done this many times and only once have I had to tell them "No, not today", because of some light chop.

If that is reckless endangerment of my C172, then I guess I am guilty!
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Old 1st Dec 2019, 15:49
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by bgbazz View Post
I've been reading this thread with much interest and have found the differing opinions to be mostly entertaining. The "reckless endangerment of an aircraft" is especially interesting.

Here's a little scenario....I regularly fly my little family of three, over to the coast for the weekend...Mrs Bazz and our 11 year old twin girls (Annie and Sarah). Wifey likes to sit in the rear area with a good book but the girls take turns in the RH seat...Annie enjoys the takeoff phase and is almost always strapped in that seat at the beginning of the 2.5 hr flight...Sarah is almost the polar opposite and wants to be upfront for the approach and landing phase. When the time comes for the swap, if conditions are smooth, Annie slides the seat back, unbuckles and they swap seats. The whole process takes about 30 seconds. I concentrate of flying as smoothly as I can, Wifey is on hand to assist either girl as needed and we have never had a problem. We have done this many times and only once have I had to tell them "No, not today", because of some light chop.

If that is reckless endangerment of my C172, then I guess I am guilty!
Done the W&B calculations?
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Old 1st Dec 2019, 16:00
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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11-year olds are not that heavy, on average, and being twins they might weigh in quite identically. Moreover it all happens quite near the centre of gravity. The W&B sheet needs to be done, of course, but it seems extremely unlikely there could be any kind of difficulty. Of course there are those who like to search for potential causes of trouble, just for the sake of causing/seeking trouble...

Somewhat parallel to the basic discussion, there is no reason to doubt Mr. Bazz did a correct job of flight preparation, including the W&B. Anyone who questions the flight preparation job will either have to offer solid proof, or make a fool of themselves.

Last edited by Jan Olieslagers; 1st Dec 2019 at 16:17.
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Old 1st Dec 2019, 16:31
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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W and B is always done prior to every flight we make....along with all the other checks and balances needed when flying precious cargo.
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Old 1st Dec 2019, 17:03
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by bgbazz View Post
W and B is always done prior to every flight we make....along with all the other checks and balances needed when flying precious cargo.
And W&B change due to the shift from front to rear? In my Cessna it makes quite a difference if you change the seat loading.....


Anyone who questions the flight preparation job will either have to offer solid proof, or make a fool of themselves.
It's my job to question flight preparation. It goes with the territory of being an Examiner funnily enough.........
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