Spin Training.
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sennadog
I think we've conversed on this topic... I actually did a couple of spins during the stalling/slow flight stage of my training (with an experienced instructor I trust sitting next to me, of course!) and they ARE fun and I DO want to do an aeros rating as soon as I can (providing I can keep The Bird in the dark - she's NOT keen).
Anything you can master that helps you're overall skill and control of the a/c has to be a good idea, I would think.
Hersh
I think we've conversed on this topic... I actually did a couple of spins during the stalling/slow flight stage of my training (with an experienced instructor I trust sitting next to me, of course!) and they ARE fun and I DO want to do an aeros rating as soon as I can (providing I can keep The Bird in the dark - she's NOT keen).
Anything you can master that helps you're overall skill and control of the a/c has to be a good idea, I would think.
Hersh
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Hi folks!
Lets start debunking some myths eh?...
Spinning *is* in the UK PPL & JAR PPL & UK NPPL Syllabus. Always has been always will be.
Ex 11A Spin Avoidance - Incipient spin recovery - IS MANDATORY. If you have NOT received this training then your club has been negligent.
Ex11B Fully developed spins - are OPTIONAL under UK PPL, UK NPPL & JAR PPL. But none the less its STILL in the syllabus.
The reason this became optional was partly due to accidents and partly due to not all organisations having aircraft which were cleared for spinning.
Mark Evans flew from Aeros at Gloucester. The aircraft is a PA28 Cherokee 140 G-SCPL. The aircraft is cleared for spinning - it is another myth that *all* PA28s are not cleared for spinning - some *are*. I did my PPL spinning in it and 7 spins later came down for some tea...
Hope this helps.
Lets start debunking some myths eh?...
Spinning *is* in the UK PPL & JAR PPL & UK NPPL Syllabus. Always has been always will be.
Ex 11A Spin Avoidance - Incipient spin recovery - IS MANDATORY. If you have NOT received this training then your club has been negligent.
Ex11B Fully developed spins - are OPTIONAL under UK PPL, UK NPPL & JAR PPL. But none the less its STILL in the syllabus.
The reason this became optional was partly due to accidents and partly due to not all organisations having aircraft which were cleared for spinning.
Mark Evans flew from Aeros at Gloucester. The aircraft is a PA28 Cherokee 140 G-SCPL. The aircraft is cleared for spinning - it is another myth that *all* PA28s are not cleared for spinning - some *are*. I did my PPL spinning in it and 7 spins later came down for some tea...
Hope this helps.
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On the new Cirrus, the spin recovery technique is to deploy the ballistic chute !.
So consider yourself fully trained in spinning the Cirrus SR22. Not that they'd probably let you lose on $350.000 worth of plastic aeroplane, but you could ask
So consider yourself fully trained in spinning the Cirrus SR22. Not that they'd probably let you lose on $350.000 worth of plastic aeroplane, but you could ask
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Hersham Boy , yes mate we have but unfortunately your man is away on holiday and as always I'm impatient!
FormationFlyer , it's Ex.11b that I'm after. Does anyone know why the Katana is not certified for spinning in the UK and yet (I believe I'm correct in saying) it is in the US?
FormationFlyer , it's Ex.11b that I'm after. Does anyone know why the Katana is not certified for spinning in the UK and yet (I believe I'm correct in saying) it is in the US?
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Father Mulcahy
The PA28-140 is cleared for spinning in the utility category, but the Warrior, Cadet and Archer are not.
The latter are developments of the former, wihth a different wing and modified fuselage and their aerodynamic characteristics can allegedly result in a flat spin with far rear C of G.
Not sure how much product liability issues in the US impact on this decision though!
The PA28-140 is cleared for spinning in the utility category, but the Warrior, Cadet and Archer are not.
The latter are developments of the former, wihth a different wing and modified fuselage and their aerodynamic characteristics can allegedly result in a flat spin with far rear C of G.
Not sure how much product liability issues in the US impact on this decision though!
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Cirrus SR22 Parachute
I have read about this & seen it on TV. (sorry folks .... off topic again!)
BUT, what I would like to know is, at what stage to you decide that you can do nothing further, as the pilot, & that it is preferable to leave you fate to a parachute, that is presumably unsteerable?
I can understand ejecting, wearing a parachute, from a doomed aircraft, but I can't imagine pulling the lever for the chute, on the back of the Cirrus.
Is this as much a matter for HPL, as flying skills?
BUT, what I would like to know is, at what stage to you decide that you can do nothing further, as the pilot, & that it is preferable to leave you fate to a parachute, that is presumably unsteerable?
I can understand ejecting, wearing a parachute, from a doomed aircraft, but I can't imagine pulling the lever for the chute, on the back of the Cirrus.
Is this as much a matter for HPL, as flying skills?
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Intentional spinning is also a relatively safe way to get down through an overcast if you are ever caught 'on top' (although you need to ensure that the ceiling ends a reasonable distance above the ground, obviously).
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Last-Ditch Option Only
Hi Whipper,
I am not suggesting that anyone deliberately spin into the overcast for fun.
Good planning should ensure that a VFR pilot never gets 'caught on top' to begin with. But if that ever happens, a spin is a stabilized, low-G, controlled manuever that will bring the aircraft down in one piece.
PROVIDED that there is adequate altitude for a recovery under the ceiling, a spin through the overcast is far safer than trying to let down on instruments (assuming that one is not trained and current on instrument flight, of course). As study after study has shown, the VFR pilot in IMC will invariably let the aircraft fall into a spiral dive and more than likely rip the wings and/or tail off ... not my idea of fun.
This is not a pleasant subject but I don't see that it is any less real a concern than inadvertantly spinning in.
MLS-12D
I am not suggesting that anyone deliberately spin into the overcast for fun.
Good planning should ensure that a VFR pilot never gets 'caught on top' to begin with. But if that ever happens, a spin is a stabilized, low-G, controlled manuever that will bring the aircraft down in one piece.
PROVIDED that there is adequate altitude for a recovery under the ceiling, a spin through the overcast is far safer than trying to let down on instruments (assuming that one is not trained and current on instrument flight, of course). As study after study has shown, the VFR pilot in IMC will invariably let the aircraft fall into a spiral dive and more than likely rip the wings and/or tail off ... not my idea of fun.
This is not a pleasant subject but I don't see that it is any less real a concern than inadvertantly spinning in.
MLS-12D
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sennadog,
You should definitely do some full spins, as you will then recognise one if you should ever inadvertently get into one.
I did a fair few spins in gliders - definitely part of mandatory pre-solo training - and while I can't say I really enjoyed doing them, I didn't think it was too bad.
I think that one should be able to recover a spin in 1000' - most often the problem is recognizing that it is a spin and doing the right things to correct it in time. "Stick and Rudder" has a very readable section on this.
The more you practice, the more instinctive the recovery technique becomes.
I'm certainly glad that I have full spin recovery experience, albeit in gliders, cos I've only flown Warriors.
SD
You should definitely do some full spins, as you will then recognise one if you should ever inadvertently get into one.
I did a fair few spins in gliders - definitely part of mandatory pre-solo training - and while I can't say I really enjoyed doing them, I didn't think it was too bad.
I think that one should be able to recover a spin in 1000' - most often the problem is recognizing that it is a spin and doing the right things to correct it in time. "Stick and Rudder" has a very readable section on this.
The more you practice, the more instinctive the recovery technique becomes.
I'm certainly glad that I have full spin recovery experience, albeit in gliders, cos I've only flown Warriors.
SD
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MLS, what you say is perfectly correct, but a less dramatic way of getting down through cloud if you have allowed yourself to get into this situation and you have no instrument training of significance is to trim the a/c in a glide, fold your arms, and keep (1) the DI on a constant heading, (2) the turn needle or indicator showing no turn, or keep the horizon level using your feet only! Try it, it works, and years ago an ex stu of mine thanked me for saving his life when he got into such a situation. (Yes I know, I should have taught him better)
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SAAB
Recognising the incipient spin and stopping it developing low down is a good thing - i.e. ex11a.
I doubt that many typical PPLs (myself included) would have much chance once the spin was fully developed, since a typical loss per rotation must be 5-600 feet depending on type.
Recognising the incipient spin and stopping it developing low down is a good thing - i.e. ex11a.
I doubt that many typical PPLs (myself included) would have much chance once the spin was fully developed, since a typical loss per rotation must be 5-600 feet depending on type.
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Croqueteer,
I agree, your method would work and would certainly be the preferred option if there was any doubt as to whether the ceiling was high enough to permit a recovery.
The spin technique is primarily for wave soaring when the 'window' closes below you; usually (!) no ceiling difficulties in such situations.
MLS-12D
I agree, your method would work and would certainly be the preferred option if there was any doubt as to whether the ceiling was high enough to permit a recovery.
The spin technique is primarily for wave soaring when the 'window' closes below you; usually (!) no ceiling difficulties in such situations.
MLS-12D
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Katana spins
Sennadog,
I've been thinking about getting some spin training too with a CFI. I learnt in a Katana and have subsequently moved to 172s.
According to my Katana DA-20A1 POH reprint, which appears to cover the Transport Canada certified version, the Katana can be spun. It has the following cautions:
"Intentional spinngin is only permitted with flaps in UP position"
"Depending on CG and spin entry technique, attempts to enter spins may develop into spiral dives. Monitor the airspeed during the first turn and recover immediately if it increases to 70KIAS."
"Spins with aft CG may oscllate in yaw rate and pitch attitude. This has no effect on recovery procedure or recovery time."
Note that by stating the above, I am not advocating that you spin the Katana you have access to if it is spinning is prohibited in your region.
I've been thinking about getting some spin training too with a CFI. I learnt in a Katana and have subsequently moved to 172s.
According to my Katana DA-20A1 POH reprint, which appears to cover the Transport Canada certified version, the Katana can be spun. It has the following cautions:
"Intentional spinngin is only permitted with flaps in UP position"
"Depending on CG and spin entry technique, attempts to enter spins may develop into spiral dives. Monitor the airspeed during the first turn and recover immediately if it increases to 70KIAS."
"Spins with aft CG may oscllate in yaw rate and pitch attitude. This has no effect on recovery procedure or recovery time."
Note that by stating the above, I am not advocating that you spin the Katana you have access to if it is spinning is prohibited in your region.
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BayAreaLondoner . Yes, I read that too in the POH but for some reason, the CAA (I believe) haven't certified the Katana in the UK, hence my question.
I just wondered why that was the case if it's possible in the US.
I just wondered why that was the case if it's possible in the US.
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To spin or not to spin
Sennadog
I guess this has to be a matter of choice. Distaff asks for old timers to confirm that spinning used to be part of the manadatory training for the PPL. Fortunately I just fall outside of her classification as spin training for PPLS was removed just before I took my PPL about 14 years ago (it could have been 13 or 15 as age muddles the brain!). Despite not being a requirement I allowed my instructor to show me how to spin a C150 Aerobat and it was great. (not the same instructor who insisted on showing me how to loop in the circuit who was a couple of blades short of a full prop!).
Now spin the delightful Chipmunk and cant see what the fuss is about.
I tend to fly aircraft through a broad envelope when positioning for interesting photo shots and it is interesting to see how often owners have never got near the edges of their aircrafts operating limits. Nothing wrong with this but should they get in to such a position they won't have much of an idea what to do. Even if you don't go out for aeros I reckon some unusual attitude, spin, and semi aero manouvring would be very enlightening and enjoyable but don't say I told you so if you happent o feel a little sickly first time out.
I guess this has to be a matter of choice. Distaff asks for old timers to confirm that spinning used to be part of the manadatory training for the PPL. Fortunately I just fall outside of her classification as spin training for PPLS was removed just before I took my PPL about 14 years ago (it could have been 13 or 15 as age muddles the brain!). Despite not being a requirement I allowed my instructor to show me how to spin a C150 Aerobat and it was great. (not the same instructor who insisted on showing me how to loop in the circuit who was a couple of blades short of a full prop!).
Now spin the delightful Chipmunk and cant see what the fuss is about.
I tend to fly aircraft through a broad envelope when positioning for interesting photo shots and it is interesting to see how often owners have never got near the edges of their aircrafts operating limits. Nothing wrong with this but should they get in to such a position they won't have much of an idea what to do. Even if you don't go out for aeros I reckon some unusual attitude, spin, and semi aero manouvring would be very enlightening and enjoyable but don't say I told you so if you happent o feel a little sickly first time out.
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Senna,
I don't believe that spin training should be mandatory, but congratulate you on wanting to improve your ab-initio trg with a lesson on spins.
My only concern is that the C150Aerobat does not spin very well and is often flicked into the spin, not the gentlest of entries and you may find that off-putting.
If funds allow I'd suggest that you start with competition type entries in a 2 seat aerobatic mount.
I spin a lot but every so often a " rogue" spin has me over rotating and not exiting on my chosen line. A 2 turn spin in the Pitts takes 1100' and the first turn really is only the entry, if I do 3 or 4 turns it really starts to wind up but will exit just as quickly.
In-spin/out-spin aileron and throttle settings all make it behave VERY differently and if flicked into the spin it will wind up far more rapidly, too.
Enjoy.
Stik
I don't believe that spin training should be mandatory, but congratulate you on wanting to improve your ab-initio trg with a lesson on spins.
My only concern is that the C150Aerobat does not spin very well and is often flicked into the spin, not the gentlest of entries and you may find that off-putting.
If funds allow I'd suggest that you start with competition type entries in a 2 seat aerobatic mount.
I spin a lot but every so often a " rogue" spin has me over rotating and not exiting on my chosen line. A 2 turn spin in the Pitts takes 1100' and the first turn really is only the entry, if I do 3 or 4 turns it really starts to wind up but will exit just as quickly.
In-spin/out-spin aileron and throttle settings all make it behave VERY differently and if flicked into the spin it will wind up far more rapidly, too.
Enjoy.
Stik
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Full spinning AND demonstratring your ability recover satisfactorially did used to be a compulsory part of the CAA PPL. I did mine back in 1982 and spent a stomach churning 90 minutes watching the Norfolk countryside rotate in front of me.
Having revalidated in recent times and only had to demonstrate "an awareness of and abillity to recover from" incipient spinds, I can assure you they are nothing to the real Mc'Coy!
Brings back full spins - valuable experience at the very least.
For info aircraft was a Tomahawk.
Having revalidated in recent times and only had to demonstrate "an awareness of and abillity to recover from" incipient spinds, I can assure you they are nothing to the real Mc'Coy!
Brings back full spins - valuable experience at the very least.
For info aircraft was a Tomahawk.
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Don't like the idea of being an old-timer .... but I got my PPL (the first time) in 1966. Yes, spins were part of the syllabus, then, we used C150's (one of which I recently saw a picture of in Today's Pilot, still flying!).
Doing your first solo spin was a very nerve-wracking event. Mine ended up in the predictable spiral dive, as I was too windy to do the manoeuvre properly. Finally managed two real spins on my own, though. The C150 will recover itself pretty easily, just by centralising the controls. You have to hold it in the spin to get several rotations.
However, some time later, during some refresher flying (following a year's absence), we tried a spin, and the instructor went white faced and shoved the nose down, saying I had nearly put us into an inverted spin, which was not recoverable. A sobering thought, and I still don't understand the difference - maybe someone here will enlighten me?.
I regained the PPL only recently, spin and stall training was part of the conditions. No instructor was prepared to do spins though - something which surprised me greatly.
Bottom line ... find an instructor who knows what he's doing, and learn them properly. They are not difficult and can be fun - however if you don't do them right, they can get you into trouble.
Doing your first solo spin was a very nerve-wracking event. Mine ended up in the predictable spiral dive, as I was too windy to do the manoeuvre properly. Finally managed two real spins on my own, though. The C150 will recover itself pretty easily, just by centralising the controls. You have to hold it in the spin to get several rotations.
However, some time later, during some refresher flying (following a year's absence), we tried a spin, and the instructor went white faced and shoved the nose down, saying I had nearly put us into an inverted spin, which was not recoverable. A sobering thought, and I still don't understand the difference - maybe someone here will enlighten me?.
I regained the PPL only recently, spin and stall training was part of the conditions. No instructor was prepared to do spins though - something which surprised me greatly.
Bottom line ... find an instructor who knows what he's doing, and learn them properly. They are not difficult and can be fun - however if you don't do them right, they can get you into trouble.
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saying I had nearly put us into an inverted spin, which was not recoverable
Check out a book called 'Spin Management & Recovery' by Michael C Love - an excellent book that covers ALL forms of spins...very very informative.
With regard to spinning down through cloud - you must be a idiot to do that. In the PA28 reduce the throttle to idle, select full flap, and trim aft FULLY to keep the nose up....and let go of the controls...suprisingly it enters a very mild and gentle spiral and leaves HUGE amount of time for recovery at the bottom at normal speeds in a sensible flight attitude....very enlightning when I was first shown this... (we were discussing descent thru cloud with NO instruments...i.e. ASI/ALT only...)