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Flying to Europe in small plane, avoiding visas

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Flying to Europe in small plane, avoiding visas

Old 20th May 2018, 03:10
  #1 (permalink)  
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Flying to Europe in small plane, avoiding visas

Hi,
I had this crazy idea that I want to hire a pilot with a small plane to fly me from the US west coast (or east coast) to Yugoslavia. (another options are the Carrabien like Nevis, St. Kitts

Questions:
Is it even possible?
how long would it take?
how many times would we have to refuse in a typical small 1 prop plane?
When we refuel in various countries and just get out of the plane to stretch and use the bathroom would we alway have to show our passports and visas (definitely something I do not want to do)?

Any other things to consider?

Appreciations for your reply

PS: Just for a thought experiment, would it be possible for a small plane to carry enough fuel in an extra tank behind the seats to make it there without refueling?
Jikuda is offline  
Old 20th May 2018, 11:33
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There are a few guys who have done similar things on youtube if you want to have a look. It is no small undertaking though.

It is possible.
Would take several days, and might take days longer than planned if weather is bad. If the weather is really bad you might end up pushing the flight forward for weeks.
Depends on what you fly, but most have a range of a few hours. I have not done any actual checking but I would guess you should count on stops on Greenland, Iceland, UK (probably two stops) and then another few stops in west/central europe.
Yes you need to have visa (or other appropriate document depending on your nationality and circumstances) and passport and clear immigration and customs (you really didn't think there is no border check just because you don't arrive on a commercial flight? Right?).

As a start maybe look at this trip?
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Old 20th May 2018, 11:51
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No problem, any single engine prop would do that on a full tank. No visas needed while you are flying over water.
Crash one is offline  
Old 20th May 2018, 13:11
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Just for a beginning: you may have observed that Yugoslavia has ceased to exist. I am afraid you have a lot more preparation to do.

Skipping several steps of criticism, my bottom line is that, while crossing the Atlantic in a SEP is not entirely excluded - it has been done indeed, many times - it is a much more complicated story than you seem to realise. And certainly it will be one of the minor hassles to obtain the required visa's in your passport and to show them when required.

Some points not mentioned yet:
* survival equipment. To be even marginally safe you need to carry a raft, and to wear lifejackets. Not just carry lifejackets, wear them! All the time!
* comm's equipment. Things seem to have been changing, but there used to be a time HF radio was needed.
* IFR rating. I understand it is almost mandatory, though there have been exceptions.
* return flight. The usual weather will give you a tailwind on your outbound, conversely a headwind when returning home. This gets worse as you fly higher, which you want to do to limit the risks of ditching.
* &c &c &c

And what might you mean by "how many times would we have to refuse" ? Looks like a typo, perhaps, I can make nothing of it.
Jan Olieslagers is online now  
Old 20th May 2018, 13:43
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Originally Posted by Jikuda View Post
Hi,
I had this crazy idea that I want to hire a pilot with a small plane to fly me from the US west coast (or east coast) to Yugoslavia. (another options are the Carrabien like Nevis, St. Kitts

Questions:
Is it even possible?
how long would it take?
how many times would we have to refuse in a typical small 1 prop plane?
When we refuel in various countries and just get out of the plane to stretch and use the bathroom would we alway have to show our passports and visas (definitely something I do not want to do)?

Any other things to consider?

Appreciations for your reply

PS: Just for a thought experiment, would it be possible for a small plane to carry enough fuel in an extra tank behind the seats to make it there without refueling?
It would also be a very expensive undertaking.

There are are a few problems here, not least the aircraft and pilot would need to be on an AOC or American equivalent. No way would they have approval for what amounts to taking a fare paying passenger across the pond in a single prop. This equates to a commercial flight. If you owned the aircraft, then that’s different.

I would personally refuse to take anyone who refuses to get out, show passport and visas etc. You appear to have something to hide. Another thing, you would have to stop in Canada. Canpass would/should already have your details and know who you are. Iceland will check you, for sure. The U.K, certainly.

In a small single (even twin) this would take days. Obviously, you would need to stay overnight at least three nights, maybe more. Then there is the weather...

You are are aware that Yugoslavia is no longer a country, I take it?



Last edited by M-ONGO; 20th May 2018 at 14:07.
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Old 20th May 2018, 13:49
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A US citizen shouldn’t require a visa for Canada, Denmark (Greenland). Iceland, the EU (including Slovenia and Croatia). Likely no document check after an intra-Schengen flight - but possible.
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Old 20th May 2018, 15:45
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Originally Posted by Jan Olieslagers View Post
<snip>
* survival equipment. To be even marginally safe you need to carry a raft, and to wear lifejackets. Not just carry lifejackets, wear them! All the time!
<snip>.
Immersion suit always worn, as well as the lifejacket. The north Atlantic is always cold, time to death in water at 10C is 1-3 hours without one.
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Old 20th May 2018, 17:45
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Also, your concept of
a typical small 1 prop plane
is far too vague. In a PA24 it would be quite feasible - if you could manage to lay hold on one - and indeed has been done repeatedly. In a Rotax-powered LSA or such it still isn't impossible, but it does need a lot more budget/time/headstrength/patience. Many levels in between...
Jan Olieslagers is online now  
Old 20th May 2018, 18:58
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Originally Posted by Jikuda View Post
Hi,
I want to hire a pilot with a small plane to fly me from the US west coast (or east coast) to Yugoslavia.
When we refuel in various countries and just get out of the plane to stretch and use the bathroom would we alway have to show our passports and visas (definitely something I do not want to do)?


S: Just for a thought experiment, would it be possible for a small plane to carry enough fuel in an extra tank behind the seats to make it there without refueling?
Why the avoidance of refuelling... Why the desperation to avoid showing visas/passports.

Very suspicious indeed from a first poster. Best remain unanswered.
3wheels is offline  
Old 20th May 2018, 19:43
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I share that concern, @3W, but we must concede T/S is from a country very little aware of the outside world, generally. There might be a bad conscience indeed, but sheer ignorance could be another explanation, it is not uncommon at all in them US of A. We should not discourage T/S from looking abroad! but neither should the multiple issues be underestimated.
Jan Olieslagers is online now  
Old 20th May 2018, 21:30
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Jan, do you consider yourself knowledgable about Americans based on your travels in the US? When was was the last time you were in the US? Could it it be somebody else is ignorant of the world ouside his own? Give it some thought.

FWIW my guess would be that the OP is a child engaging in a thought exercise.
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Old 20th May 2018, 21:38
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That, or maybe a writer researching a book. We've had a few on here over the years - some of the conversations can be quite entertaining.

G
Genghis the Engineer is offline  
Old 20th May 2018, 22:28
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... from a country very little aware of the outside world, generally.
Many years ago, I flew from Houston to Cancun. While standing in the sunshine ( no bridges in those days ) waiting to pass through immigration, one of my fellow passengers became irritated with the wait. He didnít realize that Cancun was in a foreign country.
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Old 20th May 2018, 22:57
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Ask somebody in Rome to name 10 US states from memory, and see how they do... I did, at a party at which I was the only non-local. Not one person there could do it. If you can, Iíd say you arenít the average European.

Average Americans in my experience have travelled more than the average European and have broader worldwide experience. There are more fluent Spanish speakers in the US than in Spain, for example. What they donít know as much about as Europeans is that little introspective corner of the world called Europe, which tends to be viewed as a kind of adult Disneyland. There are also a lot of exceptions, like me for example - Europeans have remarked to me that Iíve travelled to more places in Europe and know more about European history and culture than is common among people who live there. There are Europeans who have done the same in the US, and they donít see Americans like Jan - which is why I suspect he may never have left Europe.

I met a guy on the road in Belgium once and stayed with he and his wife at their house in Gooik, near Brussels. The next morning at breakfast he announced he would ride with me to Calais... his first visit to France

Last edited by Silvaire1; 21st May 2018 at 00:06.
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Old 21st May 2018, 00:12
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I am surprised nobody has mentioned that flying a private aircraft instead of a common carrier would provide virtually no advantage in terms of visa avoidance in Europe, if one is otherwise required to have a visa. That is, there are international airports where you may not be checked, but counting on that would be unwise.
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Old 21st May 2018, 03:59
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@Genghis: if this is from a writer, she/he might well improve on spelling and grammar!

@Silvaire: admitting I never left Europe, and also admitting I do am biased against US'ans in general, I still want to point out I come across people from many countries, working in Brussels and living only 20 kms off. Not that all Europeans have much broader knowledge, it depends on the country. France is poor in this respect and Spain is worse. And yes, many people never leave their own country, and even if they do it is often without taking any interest in the place they are visiting - I think equally low of the typical Belgian tourist who travels to Spain or Turkey on a charter plane, to spend two weeks on the beach and/or disco, and only eats "bifstŤk-frites"! But if I get in touch with a foreigner who blatantly hasn't prepared the trip at all, it is usually a US'an. Yourself are an obvious exception, and are well aware of that. I do like your image of "an adult Disneyland"!
Jan Olieslagers is online now  
Old 21st May 2018, 06:21
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Anything PA32/C206 or bigger, two days from NYC to UK (easily). Did a ferry of a PA32 last year from Bahamas to France, 2.5 (long but easy) days.
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Old 21st May 2018, 07:27
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Originally Posted by Jikuda View Post
... would we alway have to show our passports and visas (definitely something I do not want to do)?

Any other things to consider?
Consider instead a yacht.

In Australia we'd call it "doing a Mokbel".
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Old 21st May 2018, 10:03
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Originally Posted by Silvaire1 View Post


Average Americans in my experience have travelled more than the average European and have broader worldwide experience.
How do you work that out when only 36% of Americans hold a passport compared with 70% of British citizens?
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Old 21st May 2018, 11:21
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Originally Posted by Jan Olieslagers View Post
@Genghis: if this is from a writer, she/he might well improve on spelling and grammar!

@Silvaire: admitting I never left Europe, and also admitting I do am biased against US'ans in general, I still want to point out I come across people from many countries, working in Brussels and living only 20 kms off. Not that all Europeans have much broader knowledge, it depends on the country. France is poor in this respect and Spain is worse. And yes, many people never leave their own country, and even if they do it is often without taking any interest in the place they are visiting - I think equally low of the typical Belgian tourist who travels to Spain or Turkey on a charter plane, to spend two weeks on the beach and/or disco, and only eats "bifstŤk-frites"! But if I get in touch with a foreigner who blatantly hasn't prepared the trip at all, it is usually a US'an. Yourself are an obvious exception, and are well aware of that. I do like your image of "an adult Disneyland"!
Fair point, but not all writers have been published (or ever will be), and having been an editor from time to time of both an encyclopaedia and an academic journal, you may take my word for it that some "professional" users of written English are not as good as the average standard on this thread! I used to subscribe to a professional writers newsletter (well, some of us were) that always contained a degree of poorly written bleating about "why won't these bar-steward editors ever publish me". On the other hand I recently joined the Society of Authors (a UK centric trade union for writers) who won't let you in unless you have at least one published book, and self published doesn't (normally) count - the standards of written English in their newsletter and website are things of beauty. So, not all is lost.

On the other point,all countries have well travelled intellectuals, just as all countries have closed minded homebodies. I am unconvinced that generalising, purely based upon the relative proportions, does much good on any level.

G
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