'Why not go to Lydd?'
Joined: Nov 2005
Aviation Qualifications: PPL
Posts: 12,458
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From: Wildest Surrey
I stand corrected, Gotha, and 1920s. Still bloody fascinating things however...
Denge sound mirrors | Sound Mirrors
The technology is WW1 so far as I understand it, and I think that a lot of the infrastructure and lessons in its use were passed over to the early radar systems.
G
Denge sound mirrors | Sound Mirrors
The technology is WW1 so far as I understand it, and I think that a lot of the infrastructure and lessons in its use were passed over to the early radar systems.
G
(Could have been tried on the Blackburn Botha though; nobody seemed to have much use for it otherwise.)
I've driven past the one on Malta back in 1991 and never knew it was there!
Joined: Jan 2010
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From: UK
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,040
Likes: 35
From: Home
No joke. Some initial RNAV approaches in UK have NDB as MAP!
CAA must be run by retired navigators who have o comprehension of RNAV.!! My American friend staying with me can't believe it!!
2000+ RNAV/LPV in USA now, many at uncontrolled airfields.
CAA must be run by retired navigators who have o comprehension of RNAV.!! My American friend staying with me can't believe it!!
2000+ RNAV/LPV in USA now, many at uncontrolled airfields.
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,040
Likes: 35
From: Home
For a practice RNAV approach in VMC, you surely do not need an approach controller!
For example if I am landing at Shoreham on a visual approach I can just follow the RNAV profile, coordinating with normal circuit traffic of course.
I don't think a FISO can ban that.
For example if I am landing at Shoreham on a visual approach I can just follow the RNAV profile, coordinating with normal circuit traffic of course.
I don't think a FISO can ban that.
Joined: Nov 2005
Aviation Qualifications: PPL
Posts: 12,458
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From: Wildest Surrey
ATC at Shoreham consists of controllers with ADV/ADI ratings (aerodrome control visual or instrument) and APP ratings (approach control procedural); some Shoreham controllers may have both these ratings but some may only have ADV/ADI.
For an aircraft to carry out an iap you need a person overseeing it with an APP rating (yes I am aware there is a proposal to relax this) irrespective of whether it's VMC or IMC.
If it's VMC, it's up to the captain of the aircraft to ensure there is a safety pilot present, but that is of no concern to ATC and has no effect on whether you can do an iap without an APP rated controller.
If Shoreham wish to 'bend' the rules, that is up to them, but in the case mentioned by TMMORRISS, they are obviously playing it by the book, after all if they don't know you, how do they know you're not an inspector from GA Dept at Gatwick trying to catch them out?
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,040
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From: Home
My usual answer to this problem.
Fly a bit further to Le Touquet. Claim back 88usg of Duty Free fuel. Have a great night and food in town, beats any UK airport cafe. Oh, and do as many RNAV approaches as required -free.
Fly a bit further to Le Touquet. Claim back 88usg of Duty Free fuel. Have a great night and food in town, beats any UK airport cafe. Oh, and do as many RNAV approaches as required -free.
Joined: Mar 2012
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From: Unna, Germany
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 5
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From: london
lydd
went there thrice. Love it. Overshot the base leg couple of times though. Visited the beach, lighthouse and power station (well from outside). Free landing for me. A friend is subscribed to magazine and gets free landing vouchers once in a while.
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 101
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From: Jersey, Channel Islands
Ive only ever been to lydd once... seemed to be a bit out in the middle of no where ... just before a quick 15 min trip to L2K..
But on my return home, at almost 5pm on a friday night, I had a fouled spark plug/mag drop on power checks - and the resident engineer took time out of his locking up, to not only diagnose the problem, clean all my plugs, but to natter and chat for ages. I was very pleased that even so late on a friday afternoon that he was willing to help a non-resident visitor out, and even refused some cash in hand beer money for his trouble!
Ever grateful for that guy.
But on my return home, at almost 5pm on a friday night, I had a fouled spark plug/mag drop on power checks - and the resident engineer took time out of his locking up, to not only diagnose the problem, clean all my plugs, but to natter and chat for ages. I was very pleased that even so late on a friday afternoon that he was willing to help a non-resident visitor out, and even refused some cash in hand beer money for his trouble!
Ever grateful for that guy.
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 5
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From: Norwich
I won't be going to Lydd again in a hurry. On the way to Spain VFR last September, we hit unforecast bad weather, such that we needed to divert. Our ETA Lydd was 10 mins before their published opening time. Radio calls to Lydd were fruitless, apart from an assistant who answered but was unable to clear us to do anything. When the controller finally came on the radio about 2 mins before we were due to touch down, he refused a clearance until precisely opening time. In the 10 to 15 mins before our arrival, we'd been scratching around in foul weather with nowhere else to go and subsequently had to stay there waiting for a weather clearance for 3 hours.
We were extremely pleased to be on the ground. But to cap it all, Lydd aren't members of the Strasser scheme so they charged us a (we thought v hefty) landing fee. That's a real disincentive to go there in emergency. If I'd known, we'd have squeezed into Headcorn instead. The controller on duty that day deserved a kick up the *rse for refusing clearance until precisely opening time. We thought a Pan call was not necessary to force the issue and hey - opening a few minutes early if you're there surely isn't a big deal when you know that the inbound is on a weather diversion and is not good looking out of the window. Don't give me 'insurance' as a reason.
How refreshingly nice the refuelling staff were. Shame on that ATC bloke.
Rant over. This is Pprune, so I'm expecting lots of flak, but I tell it how we both felt in the cockpit (and we are both calm and unflappable blokes with plenty of experience).
We were extremely pleased to be on the ground. But to cap it all, Lydd aren't members of the Strasser scheme so they charged us a (we thought v hefty) landing fee. That's a real disincentive to go there in emergency. If I'd known, we'd have squeezed into Headcorn instead. The controller on duty that day deserved a kick up the *rse for refusing clearance until precisely opening time. We thought a Pan call was not necessary to force the issue and hey - opening a few minutes early if you're there surely isn't a big deal when you know that the inbound is on a weather diversion and is not good looking out of the window. Don't give me 'insurance' as a reason.
How refreshingly nice the refuelling staff were. Shame on that ATC bloke.
Rant over. This is Pprune, so I'm expecting lots of flak, but I tell it how we both felt in the cockpit (and we are both calm and unflappable blokes with plenty of experience).
Joined: Mar 2017
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From: Newick
The reason for using an NDB as part of an RNAV IAP in the case of Shoreham is historic. When the CAA trialled RNAV(GNSS) non-precision approaches those aerodromes that took up the offer had their approach designed by the CAA for free.
As a cost cutting exercise the beacon was used instead of a new RNAV waypoint.
There are a number of older LNAV only approaches which are being upgraded to LPV and the opportunity to dispense with ground-based Navaids is part of that work. (But not funded by CAA)
BTW there are plenty of people at CAA who understand RNAV including me when I worked there. Yes there was a preponderance Vulcan and Tornado Navs but they have all retired now.
As a cost cutting exercise the beacon was used instead of a new RNAV waypoint.
There are a number of older LNAV only approaches which are being upgraded to LPV and the opportunity to dispense with ground-based Navaids is part of that work. (But not funded by CAA)
BTW there are plenty of people at CAA who understand RNAV including me when I worked there. Yes there was a preponderance Vulcan and Tornado Navs but they have all retired now.
Joined: Nov 2005
Aviation Qualifications: PPL
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From: Wildest Surrey
Joined: Jun 2002
Aviation Qualifications: PPL
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From: Nanaimo (CAC8)
As a cost cutting exercise the beacon was used instead of a new RNAV waypoint.
Fred, I need an RNAV FAF for Shoreham. What's the lat/long of the NDB and what's the NDB Approach crossing-altitude?
Joined: Jun 2003
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From: LFMD
As a cost cutting exercise the beacon was used instead of a new RNAV waypoint.
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,040
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From: Home
Surely the Shoreham NDB Lat/Long Waypoint data is already known in the Jepp RNAV database? Didn't Know Jeppeson send out ground surveyors to check all their waypoint data is correct.
For instance if I use the Shoreham NDB as a Waypoint in an IFR flight plan the Lat/Long may be incorrect? Hopefully the CAA will tell Jeppeson!!
For instance if I use the Shoreham NDB as a Waypoint in an IFR flight plan the Lat/Long may be incorrect? Hopefully the CAA will tell Jeppeson!!
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,040
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From: Home
tmmorris
Too late! For me, and many others I bet!!
PS All OK, colleague at Shoreham just confirmed that the NDB is at the same position as his RNAV database waypoint.
Too late! For me, and many others I bet!!
PS All OK, colleague at Shoreham just confirmed that the NDB is at the same position as his RNAV database waypoint.
Last edited by cessnapete; 30th January 2018 at 17:06.
