Is 7k over the top for Cessna Annual ?

[funfly]

Remember also that the people who do maintenance on your aircraft have a massive legal liability for the work they do. I recall a microlite fatality caused by one wrong bolt, funnily enough the bolt should have been non aircraft grade and it was replaced with aircraft grade and didn' fail when required.

[cotterpot]

Shoestring - Bit of a sweeping statement. Many groups manage quite well as long as they operate a proper budget.

The majority of us - is who ?

[A and C]

Without the actual worksheets and parts listing you can't tell if this £7k annual is good value or a rip off, I have had a 50 hour check cost £15 K and an annual cost £2 K and it all depends on what snags are found on the aircraft.

[Mickey Kaye]

My last 3 annuals

C150 5 grand
C150 11 grand
T67 6 grand

[BoeingBoy]

My Archer came out at £6.5k for it's first annual with a new company. No defects were found, nor problems with its service history but the time taken research the aircraft back to 77 cost most of the price.

I will be looking for a much lower figure next year or words will be spoken..... :-(

[ETOPS]

I'm beginning to think that piperboy84 has the right idea keeping his aircraft on the American FAA registry and being able to do some of the routine stuff himself.

Any drawbacks to this?

Yes I know about the licence and territoriality....

[piperboy84]

Here's a list of what I'm allowed to do:

14 CFR Part 43 Appendix A (c) Preventative Maintenance
(c) Preventive maintenance. Preventive maintenance is limited to the following work, provided it does not involve complex assembly operations:

(1) Removal, installation, and repair of landing gear tires.

(2) Replacing elastic shock absorber cords on landing gear.

(3) Servicing landing gear shock struts by adding oil, air, or both.

(4) Servicing landing gear wheel bearings, such as cleaning and greasing.

(5) Replacing defective safety wiring or cotter keys.

(6) Lubrication not requiring disassembly other than removal of nonstructural items such as cover plates, cowlings, and fairings.

(7) Making simple fabric patches not requiring rib stitching or the removal of structural parts or control surfaces. In the case of balloons, the making of small fabric repairs to envelopes (as defined in, and in accordance with, the balloon manufacturers’ instructions) not requiring load tape repair or replacement.

(8) Replenishing hydraulic fluid in the hydraulic reservoir.

(9) Refinishing decorative coating of fuselage, balloon baskets, wings tail group surfaces (excluding balanced control surfaces), fairings, cowlings, landing gear, cabin, or cockpit interior when removal or disassembly of any primary structure or operating system is not required.

(10) Applying preservative or protective material to components where no disassembly of any primary structure or operating system is involved and where such coating is not prohibited or is not contrary to good practices.

(11) Repairing upholstery and decorative furnishings of the cabin, cockpit, or balloon basket interior when the repairing does not require disassembly of any primary structure or operating system or interfere with an operating system or affect the primary structure of the aircraft.

(12) Making small simple repairs to fairings, nonstructural cover plates, cowlings, and small patches and reinforcements not changing the contour so as to interfere with proper air flow.

(13) Replacing side windows where that work does not interfere with the structure or any operating system such as controls, electrical equipment, etc.

(14) Replacing safety belts.

(15) Replacing seats or seat parts with replacement parts approved for the aircraft, not involving disassembly of any primary structure or operating system.

(16) Trouble shooting and repairing broken circuits in landing light wiring circuits.

(17) Replacing bulbs, reflectors, and lenses of position and landing lights.

(18) Replacing wheels and skis where no weight and balance computation is involved.

(19) Replacing any cowling not requiring removal of the propeller or disconnection of flight controls.

(20) Replacing or cleaning spark plugs and setting of spark plug gap clearance.

(21) Replacing any hose connection except hydraulic connections.

(22) Replacing prefabricated fuel lines.

(23) Cleaning or replacing fuel and oil strainers or filter elements.

(24) Replacing and servicing batteries.

(25) Cleaning of balloon burner pilot and main nozzles in accordance with the balloon manufacturer’s instructions.

(26) Replacement or adjustment of nonstructural standard fasteners incidental to operations.

(27) The interchange of balloon baskets and burners on envelopes when the basket or burner is designated as interchangeable in the balloon type certificate data and the baskets and burners are specifically designed for quick removal and installation.

(28) The installations of anti-misfueling devices to reduce the diameter of fuel tank filler openings provided the specific device has been made a part of the aircraft type certificiate data by the aircraft manufacturer, the aircraft manufacturer has provided FAA-approved instructions for installation of the specific device, and installation does not involve the disassembly of the existing tank filler opening.

(29) Removing, checking, and replacing magnetic chip detectors.

(30) The inspection and maintenance tasks prescribed and specifically identified as preventive maintenance in a primary category aircraft type certificate or supplemental type certificate holder’s approved special inspection and preventive maintenance program when accomplished on a primary category aircraft provided:

(i) They are performed by the holder of at least a private pilot certificate issued under part 61 who is the registered owner (including co-owners) of the affected aircraft and who holds a certificate of competency for the affected aircraft (1) issued by a school approved under §147.21(e) of this chapter; (2) issued by the holder of the production certificate for that primary category aircraft that has a special training program approved under §21.24 of this subchapter; or (3) issued by another entity that has a course approved by the Administrator; and

(ii) The inspections and maintenance tasks are performed in accordance with instructions contained by the special inspection and preventive maintenance program approved as part of the aircraft’s type design or supplemental type design.

(31) Removing and replacing self-contained, front instrument panel-mounted navigation and communication devices that employ tray-mounted connectors that connect the unit when the unit is installed into the instrument panel, (excluding automatic flight control systems, transponders, and microwave frequency distance measuring equipment (DME)). The approved unit must be designed to be readily and repeatedly removed and replaced, and pertinent instructions must be provided. Prior to the unit’s intended use, and operational check must be performed in accordance with the applicable sections of part 91 of this chapter.

[Silvaire1]

I'm beginning to think that piperboy84 has the right idea keeping his aircraft on the American FAA registry

I just finished my annual today in collaboration with an FAA A&P IA friend. I haven't paid him yet, but usually it's a situation in which 2 x $100 bills are exchanged for the inspection, plus the maintenance logbooks having his fresh Annual entries added. Sometimes a little more $ if we've done more work together, but this year it was straightforward. I buy the parts, and the planes are maintained year round, as required.

The bills described by people here are totally ludicrous from my point of view. My total labor cost for two planes both inspected annually since 2010 must be on the order of $3000 - for 12 annual inspections.

[A and C]

Silvaire 1

You obviously have the skill to maintain your aircraft and have failed to price the time and cost of the facility's you use to maintain your aircraft.

Some do not have the time, ability or wish to work on aircraft so they pay for the service and surprise surprise the people who provide this service have to make a living and pay for the upkeep of the hangar, liability insurance and the approvals to carry out the work.

Only when you factor in all of the above can you compare your maintenance costs with those who can't or don't want to do the maintenance themselfs.

[Silvaire1]

It's nice to know my time is so valuable.

That aside, none of the people who maintain my planes earn their primary income doing it, have insurance, or pay for 'approvals' to do the work. The arguable exception would be the employees of parts suppliers like Aircraft Spruce. No invoices are issued for the labor, it's a cash transaction with no sales tax legally applicable. I don't like leaving my aircraft outside over night, any day of the year, so the hangar is not an additional maintenance cost.

[abgd]

As Silvaire points out, at least if you're someone who enjoys tinkering and can do so competently then the FAA system gives you the freedom to take that approach.

On the other hand, wouldn't your aircraft be on a permit in the UK Silvaire? (I believe the Luscombe Silvaire typically is) in which case your maintenance regime and costs would be quite similar anyway.

[Silvaire1]

I have two aircraft, one would be maintained on a Permit in the UK, but is standard category in the US where it can be used commercially and etc without issue and doesn't require a test to Vne every year (!) or any annual paperwork other than logbook entries. The last thing I'd want personally is a non-standard airworthiness certificate for either aircraft, in comparison to what I already have in N-registered standard category.

[scifi]

Quote from Step Turn.... The cost for mags seems fair.


Or maybe not... For a start it was only 1 Magneto, cost £1070, add its labour and VAT, and it's nearer £1800 total.

What exactly could be done to these magnetos that costs such a lot?
My bet is they can't do much more than clean or change the contact breaker. (The metal casing, magnets and coils won't have been changed.)
So at worst it's a new set of points and maybe some new bearings, parts costing £30 max.

[S-Works]

Fook me..... My Hawk XP with wobbly prop averages under £3k a year total for maintenance.......

[abgd]

Mags should be tested on a test rig. You can change the coils and re-magnetise the magnets and change the capacitors also. Aside from cleaning and lubricating everything. My mags cost about £350 each to overhaul including parts (Permit aircraft). It annoyed me, but seemed basically fair.

[Jetblu]

Hmmm. I have operated the C310Q on G reg and N reg. I have also operated the PA32R on both G and N reg.

The N reg was the least complicated with a smoother maintenance regime.

The G reg's seemed to cost 30% - 45% more for annuals.

[Flyingmac]

Oop ere in cloth cap and ferret land the base price for a C172 Annual is £1800 incl labour. You can bring that down by doing the donkey work yourself. Owner participation is quite acceptable.

[TheOddOne]

Owner participation is quite acceptable

Our bloke says that the charge increases by 30% if you watch, doubles if you try and help.

To quote Sir Stanley Hooker - 'an engineer is someone who can do something for ten bob (50p) that any damn fool can do for a pound'.

Just let them got on with it.

TOO

[Above The Clouds]

Originally Posted by TheOddOne

Our bloke says that the charge increases by 30% if you watch, doubles if you try and help.

To quote Sir Stanley Hooker - 'an engineer is someone who can do something for ten bob (50p) that any damn fool can do for a pound'.

Just let them got on with it.

TOO

Then I would tell your bloke to get lost and take my aircraft elsewhere, at the end of the day its your property and you have every right at least to watch and learn what is going on.

[Manker]

Further to pb84s post, the following extract from an article in Flight Training magazine may be of interest to N registered owners:

Although an owner cannot perform any part of the annual inspection, even under an IA's supervision, there is absolutely no reason why an owner cannot participate in the maintenance portion of the inspection.
One responsibility of an aircraft owner is to ensure that all required maintenance and inspections are conducted on his (or her) aircraft. Federal Aviation Regulation 91.403(a) says that "The owner or operator of an aircraft is primarily responsible for maintaining that aircraft in an airworthy condition ..." and FAR 91.405 says that "Each owner or operator of an aircraft (a) Shall have that aircraft inspected as prescribed in subpart E of this part .?"
Now that you own - or hope to soon own - an aircraft, you need to know just what those regulations imply, require, and allow.
The purpose of any aircraft inspection is to ensure the continued airworthiness and safety of the aircraft. Private aircraft that are not operated for hire need a complete inspection only once every calendar year, regardless of the number of hours the aircraft has flown. This inspection is called an Annual Inspection (most pilots refer to it informally as an annual) and is specifically required by FAR Part 91.409(a)(1). FAR Part 43, Appendix D defines the scope and detail of an annual.
Only two entities can legally perform an annual - an airframe and powerplant (A) mechanic who holds an Inspection Authorization rating (IA), or a properly certificated repair station operated under FAR Part 145. No one else can do an annual, even under an IA's supervision.
Although an owner cannot perform any part of the annual inspection, even under an IA's supervision, there is absolutely no reason why an owner cannot participate in the maintenance portion of the inspection.
FAR Part 43.3(d) says "a person working under the supervision of a holder of a mechanic ... certificate may perform the maintenance ... that his supervisor is authorized to perform, if the supervisor personally observes the work being done to the extent necessary to ensure that it is being done properly and if the supervisor is readily available, in person, for consultation. However, this paragraph does not authorize the performance of any inspection required by Part 91 .?"
Because FAR Part 43 specifically excludes the performance of any inspection by other than the certificated person signing it off for return to service, it's important to know what the FAA considers to be maintenance and what it considers to be part of an annual inspection. Advisory Circular 65-19G, "Inspection Authorization Study Guide," says that "routine servicing is NOT part of the annual inspection. The inspection itself is essentially a visual evaluation of the condition of the aircraft and its components and certain operational checks. The manufacturer may recommend certain services to be performed at various operating intervals. These can be done conveniently at this time, and in fact should be done, but are not considered to be a part of the inspection itself."
In short, with the IA's approval and supervision, an owner can perform any or all of the maintenance and routine service functions that accompany an annual inspection, but the IA cannot delegate the actual inspection to anyone.
Some IAs make the majority of their living by performing annual inspections and prefer not to become involved in significant maintenance functions. These IAs may encourage owners to "preinspect" their aircraft for obvious defects and problems before the IAs start the inspection. It's important to note that the preinspection is not in any way part of the annual inspection process. You - the owner - are only helping yourself and your IA by finding and correcting problems prior to the annual inspection. Any problems you find and remedy will be that much less maintenance work for the IA, will very likely be less expensive for you, and will increase your knowledge of your aircraft and how it operates.
As the aircraft's owner/operator, you are entitled to perform various maintenance functions without being under the direct supervision of an A FAR Part 43, Appendix A, Paragraph C, "Preventive Maintenance," lists these functions. You can "preinspect" these items entirely on your own and correct any problems found before your IA begins the annual inspection. You should be aware, however, that depending on your relationship with your IA, he may repeat some or all of these maintenance items to ensure you've performed them correctly and in an airworthy manner.
If you desire to work beyond the items listed in Part 43, Appendix A, Paragraph C, you must work under the direct supervision of an A, as required by FAR Part 43.3(d). It's important that you work out your participation in the annual inspection process with your IA before you do any work on the aircraft. The IA is legally responsible for the completed inspection and will want to be clear on exactly what you will be doing and on your ability to do the work competently. Together you should identify specific tasks and establish check points in advance so that you and the IA will both know when and where the IA will want to inspect the work accomplished.
examples abound of maintenance items associated with an annual inspection. General items include the removal and installation of all cowlings, fairings, inspection panels, wing tips, etc., cleaning the aircraft and engine, and the removal of the aircraft interior.
Engine service items include draining and refilling the engine oil, cleaning the engine oil screen, changing the engine oil filter (if any), and cutting apart the oil filter to inspect the element for metal particles. All of the spark plugs (two per cylinder) must be removed, cleaned, gapped, and fire checked in a pressurized plug tester. The engine ignition timing will have to be checked and verified to meet the engine manufacturer's specifications.
The intake air filter will need to be cleaned or replaced as necessary. Check all engine primer lines for security and leakage. Broken and/or leaking primer lines are a common problem as aircraft age. Be sure to inspect the muffler and the cabin heat muff for leaks. Carbon monoxide entering the cabin through the cabin heat system is dangerous. If the engine has a carburetor instead of fuel injection, check the carb heat control for proper operation. The engine and everything in the engine compartment will be checked for security and proper movement, travel, and adjustment.
Airframe maintenance items include cleaning and greasing all wheel bearings, changing tubes and/or tires as required, replacing landing gear shock chords as required, checking and replacing brakes as required, and servicing the nose wheel shimmy damper (if any). If the aircraft has retractable landing gear, an annual inspection requires a gear retraction test and checking the emergency gear extension system. Check the tension and lubrication of all flight control cables and check all control cable pulleys for ease of operation and for flat spots.
If you're 6-foot-5 and weigh 250 pounds, crawling into the tail cone of a Cessna 150 to adjust the rudder cable tension will be an "interesting" experience - as will getting back out! Check all flight controls for damage and security of mounting. Turn on everything electrical and check it as best you can on the ground. If you don't know how to operate some piece of equipment, find someone who does, or get the operation manual.
Aviation is a constant learning experience, so take advantage of all the opportunities you get to know your aircraft better. Don't forget to try all the lights. Check your seat belts and shoulder harnesses (if any) for proper operation and for frayed belts. You can wind up the airframe maintenance with a bit of cosmetic work by touching up paint, repairing upholstery, and routine cleaning.
Your IA will have and use a model-specific checklist for the annual inspection and will have many more specific items to check out.
Participating in the annual inspection process can be an educational experience and can save money, decrease the down time on the aircraft, and give you an opportunity to monitor and understand the maintenance process and any specific concerns with your aircraft.